Manurhin 32ACP

[ThomasT]

In 2008 I bought a Manurhin 32acp pistol from a pawn shop for $250OTD. The place on the left side of the slide says licensed by xxxxxxxxxx and you can see it used to say Walther. It has the curved Walther banner on the grips but the Walther word has been removed. I once read why this was done but can't for the life of me remember why. Can anyone help?

Its a very nice, clean little pistol I need to shoot more often. I did read that Manurhin was making all the Walther PPs for a time and that the quality was just as good or better than the German made guns.

[steveno]

I bought a couple of Manurhins in the early 1980's that were imported by Interarms. They were PPK/s's in 22 lr & 380 and they were very well made. I still don't know why I got rid of them other than brain fade. I think there was a time frame where Manurhin made all of this series of pistols but to be able to be named a Walther it had to be "proofed" in Germany. I think that some of the pistols made by S & W were marked as licensed by Walther

[PSP]

I'd guess that your PP was made after Walther and Manurhin parted ways, but had some slides already marked but not heat treated. When Walther entered into their deal with Interarms as the official licensee, I'd assumed the French company had to remove the name.

[Ibmikey]

I have a nicely made French Manurhin PP, has a square lanyard loop and Interarms import mark. If I remember correctly Walther was PO'd at Manurhin when they (Walther) began production again and the French ignored termination of the license agreement and continued to produce for some time.

[carguychris]

IMHO PSP is correct; ratshooter, I believe you have one of the uncommon "transitional" Manurhins. [EDIT: There is another possibility. See subsequent post.]

The Walther/Manurhin relationship is complex. More info can be found on the Walther Forums:

http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/f...explained.html

[WIL TERRY]

SHUCKS, I have a PP 7.65MM that has all Walther markings down one side and all Manurhin markings on the other side.
MANURHIN made all---ALL!!!---of the walther PP, PPK, and PPKs pistols after WWII up until the late 1970's. THis includes all of the pistols with the Walther banner and marked 'MADE IN GERMANY'. There is NO truth in advertising etc etc in Europe.

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by WIL TERRY

MANURHIN made all---ALL!!!---of the walther PP, PPK, and PPKs pistols after WWII up until the late 1970's. THis includes all of the pistols with the Walther banner and marked 'MADE IN GERMANY'. There is NO truth in advertising etc etc in Europe.

Actually, it depends on how you define "made".

Between the end of WWII and the mid 1980's (IIRC), all European-made PP-series pistols consisted of French-made components from Manurhin. [American-made Interarms and S&W pistols are a different topic. ]

When production restarted in the late 1940s, Manurhin assembled entire finished pistols, as Walther did not have a functional plant yet; their previous plant wound up on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain. Early pistols had very prominent Manurhin markings, including a prominent circular trademark, and a "LIC. EXCL. BY WALTHER" statement in the slide legend denoting that the pistols were made under license.

In the mid-1950's, Interarms became Walther's US importer, and began importing Manurhin-made, French-proofed pistols, but with a Walther banner instead of the Manurhin trademark for promotional reasons, and a noticeable but not too prominent "EX. LIC. WALTHER" marking in the slide legend and a "MADE IN FRANCE" or simply "FRANCE" marking on the frame. Other subtle markings may- or may not!- refer to Manurhin and/or Ste. Etienne, the site of Manurhin's production facility [EDIT]the French proof house.

In the late 1950's- AFAIK the exact starting date is in dispute- Walther began assembling, finishing, and proofing centerfire PP-series pistols in Ulm, West Germany, still using Manurhin components. During the transition, the markings apparently went through numerous confusing and inconsistent changes (this included Wil Terry's pistol, in all likelihood); however, by 1961, most pistols displayed the Walther banner and the familiar "ULM/DO." slide legend and "MADE IN W. GERMANY" frame markings, along with German Ulm proofs.

AFAIK after centerfire production was moved to Ulm, rimfire PP-series pistols continued to be produced entirely by Manurhin, bearing French proof marks and "EX. LIC. WALTHER" markings like the earlier Interarms pistols.

In the early 1980's, Walther attempted to terminate their production arrangement with Manurhin and move all European production operations to Germany, but this did not go over well. Manurhin reacted by exporting pistols on their own, only to be sued by Interarms, which had exclusive rights to the name "Walther" and the Walther banner within the USA. This forced Manurhin to remove or deface these markings on pistols still in the production and shipment process. [Further legal action by Walther and Interarms later forced Manurhin to stop PP-series production altogether.] This is ONE explanation for the markings on the OP's pistol.

The OTHER explanation is that the pistol is a 1950's Danish or German police surplus gun that was originally made with the early-style Manurhin markings, but imported and sold during the Interarms-Manurhin lawsuit era. A CA importer supposedly sold a large number of these pistols during this time period and "scrubbed" the Walther name for the same basic reason Manurhin did. These pistols also bear typical post-GCA import marks. Pictures of an example pistol can be found in the following Walther Forum thread:

http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/p...s-defaced.html

[ThomasT]

Thanks for the replies. Here are some of the other markings on my gun.

Manufacture De Machines

Du Haut-Rhin

Made In France

Mod. PP 7.65 mm

Behind the trigger guard. Valley Gun Dist Inc LA CA And in a circle an x with ByP

On the barrel in the ejection port A symble like a crown and Stetienne and below the ejection port a crown and writting I cannot make out

Serial # 5792X

Its very clean with just a small amount of muzzle wear on the left side.

[James K]

Manufacture de Machines du Haut-Rhin (Maker of machines of Upper Rhine) is the full name of the company usually called Manurhin. Haut Rhin is the name of a Department (equivalent to a state) in France.

IIRC, Walther and Interarms also had a problem with BATFE on those pistols, because the Walther and "Germany" markings did not conform to the actual manufacturer, which was Manurhin. I don't know the final resolution, but it was probably a fine. The whole thing was very confusing, but Manurhin did make pistols with its own name as well as guns that were shipped to Germany for proof testing and marking.

The markings ratshooter describes are the normal French (St. Etienne) proof marks. The guns were not made in St. Etienne, which is in Loire, but at Mulhouse, which is in Haut Rhin.

Jim

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by ratshooter

Behind the trigger guard. Valley Gun Dist Inc LA CA And in a circle an x with ByP... On the barrel in the ejection port A symble like a crown and Stetienne and below the ejection port a crown and writting I cannot make out... serial # 5792X

I think it's one of the Danish or German police surplus guns imported in the 80's. According to a table on the Walther Forum, this serial number dates to 1956-57.

Originally Posted by James K

The markings ratshooter describes are the normal French (St. Etienne) proof marks. The guns were not made in St. Etienne, which is in Loire, but at Mulhouse, which is in Haut Rhin.

This is correct, my bad. My previous post will be corrected.

[ThomasT]

Thanks for the info guys. If it was made in 1957 thats the same year I was born. And trust me this gun is in a hell of a lot better shape than I am.

I have only had it out once to shoot. I have lots of ammo and am going to take it next time I go shoot. I love 32 caliber handguns. I only have this one auto but have six 32 caliber revolvers. And a Marlin 32 mag lever gun.

[1/2 cocked]

Ive got the same story on a PP .32 . Made in 1956 if I remember. Has the Walther ground out in a nice neat oval. Blued it. The grips were Manurhin.but cracked beyond repair.

[RJay]

There is nothing wrong with the truth in advertising in Europe, The gun was assembled and proofed in Germany and by German law it " was made in Germany ". Several firms did the same thing in the US, after the 1968 GCA took effect and barred the import of the very cheap guns such as the Rohm R-10 ( the law also hit some of the better guns also, which is why we have the PPK/S ) the frames were made in the US and the internals were imported and presto, the rebirth of the Rohm R series marked as " Made in the US of A". This little game was done with a number of the cheaper guns.

[kcub]

Is 7.65 a good ratslayer?

[James K]

The PPK/S was made to meet the import "points" criteria and was originally made in Germany and imported.* Those guns are fairly rare because Walther wanted to limit its Ulm production to the PP and PPK and so Interarms had the PPK/S made in the U.S. According to Walther, the "S" meant "Spezial" but persistent rumor is that it meant "States". I guess we pretty much have to take Walther's word on that.

As for .32 caliber pistols, they are much scorned by those who sneer at anything smaller than a .500 S&W. But I doubt that any of those laughing have ever been shot with a .32.

*One of the people on the panel that set up the import criteria was a close associate of Interarms who knew Walther could meet the standards with the PP and could produce the PPK/S, while many competitors' guns would be banned. Perhaps not coincidence.

Jim

[NotMeNotYou]

Carguychris-- PLEASE don't let me correctly understand you to be telling me the NIB Ulm, West Germany marked PPK ('66 import stamp on the bbl) I traded for in 1976 was made in France & assembled in W. Germany ! If this in fact the case, I want to know it, but I sure don't like it.

SAY IT AIN'T SO !

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by NotMeNotYou

Carguychris-- PLEASE don't let me correctly understand you to be telling me the NIB Ulm, West Germany marked PPK ('66 import stamp on the bbl) I traded for in 1976 was made in France & assembled in W. Germany !

AFAIK, ALL European Walther PP-series pistols produced between 1945 and the late 1980's were made either (a) entirely in France, or (b) in West Germany of entirely French components.

Originally Posted by NotMeNotYou

If this in fact the case, I want to know it, but I sure don't like it... SAY IT AIN'T SO !

What's the big deal? Most serious Walther enthusiasts are aware of this.

[NotMeNotYou]

Under the grip is the German eagle over N proof mark. Also in front of the "66 (year of import) stamped on the bbl..Between the 2 marks on the bbl. is a small cross with what looks like a curved, horizontal line w/4 curved, vertical branches. Any idea on this? Sorry, no pic..

It's not such a big deal, the pistol remains a beautiful piece. I'll get over it.

Thanks for your patience & you educating me.

JMM

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by NotMeNotYou

Between the 2 marks on the bbl. is a small cross with what looks like a curved, horizontal line w/4 curved, vertical branches. Any idea on this?

It should be an Ulm proof mark. It represents a stag's horn. Does it look like a smaller and simpler rendition of the mark in the following AR15.com thread?

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_27/12...ith_a_PPS.html

FWIW many Walther threads discuss proof marks; guns made in the "real" Walther plant bear the Ulm proof mark, whereas "fake" Walthers made by Umarex bear the Koln (Cologne) proof mark, which is 3 crowns in a shield.

[EDIT] The following NRA Museum link shows both the Ulm and Koln proof marks, along with marks used by the St. Etienne proof house on the all-French Manurhins.

http://www.nramuseum.com/media/940944/proofmarks.pdf

[NotMeNotYou]

Carguychris,
Yes. From the links you provided I see I have a post'52 "Stag Horn" and 2 more post'52 proof marks, all Ulm. Thank you.

Grasshopper

[gyvel]

AFAIK after centerfire production was moved to Ulm, rimfire PP-series pistols continued to be produced entirely by Manurhin, bearing French proof marks and "EX. LIC. WALTHER" markings like the earlier Interarms pistols.

Did I understand this correctly? .22 Ulm marked PPs with German proofs were still manufactured in Mulhaus?

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by carguychris

AFAIK after centerfire production was moved to Ulm, rimfire PP-series pistols continued to be produced entirely by Manurhin, bearing French proof marks and "EX. LIC. WALTHER" markings like the earlier Interarms pistols.

These pistols had French proof marks, "EX. LIC. WALTHER" and "MADE IN FRANCE", or simply "FRANCE", markings.

The point is that, as I understand it, Mulhaus PP-series rimfire pistols were still being imported into the USA for several years after the import of Mulhaus centerfire guns ceased in 1962.

[gyvel]

The point is that, as I understand it, Mulhaus PP-series rimfire pistols were still being imported into the USA for several years after the import of Mulhaus centerfire guns ceased in 1962.

Ok, I think I got it. I have one .22 that is dated '70 with Ulm markings and proofs. An overlap, I guess.

[NotMeNotYou]

Carguychris,
From Walther Forum "Manurhin Myth Explained"-- PP series pistols that were machined by Manhurin (from special forgings specified by Walther & supplied from Germany, it is worth noting)that were to become "German" Walthers were shipped to Ulm w/ "soft" slides. Ulm marked the slides & differentially heat treated by oil hardening plus w/ electric induction in the area of the safety lever, then polished & blued...".

I begin to see why earlier you wrote "what's the big deal?" Thanks for your patience.

Grasshopper

[PSP]

No picture in the thread. Time for a pic. Manurhin or Walther markings? Nice pistols either way.

.22lr

.32acp