DA/SA & 1911 Perfection???????

[long shot]

I just wanted to share these two examples w/ everyone to illustrate that it's in my opinion not the gun design as TFW seemed to be pointing to in his Glock Perfection post, but it's IMHO more a training issue & a familiarity of a designs manual of arms that's important.
I own or have owned da/sa, 1911's, Glock, & DAO pistols, so though I am a Glock fan, I'm a fan of the others as well, I like variety.

The following is from FrontSight's webpage, in short form:

FrontSight Training Institute has thousands of students attend their courses every year, using submachineguns, shotguns, pistols, & revolvers. Out of all the students & various types of firearms, there have only been two negligent discharges at the facility.

The 1st, involved a student w/a da/sa Sig P229.
After an exercise, the student reholstered his weapon, w/out first decocking it. Upon drawing for the next course of fire, he failed to adhere to safety rule number 3, & placed his finger on the trigger according to those who investigated the incident. The result, a 180gr bullet through his thigh.
Should I blame the weapon's design, or deem it unsafe, of course not! With the da/sa pistol, after the 1st shot is fired, the person is holding a cocked & unlocked pistol, the student simply failed to follow the manual of arms for this guns design, & failed to follow safety rule 3.

The 2nd incident involed a 22 year combat veteran of the U.S. Marine Corps, who was taking the instructors certification course.
Weapon was a 1911 Colt Gold Cup, w/ a Kydex holster.
After firing to controlled pairs, he was reholstering his weapon & a negligent discharge occurred. It was determined that he failed to properly engage the thumb safety, leaving him hoslstering a cocked & unlocked weapon, this coupled w/ the fact that the Kydex holster he was using had a plastic recess that fits inside the trigger gaurd to secure the weapon in the holster caused the ND.
Is it the pistols fault, is the 1911 unsafe or a flawed design? Absolutely not, again, this was simply a case of failing to follow a given designs manual of arms.
As a side note, the student received what was called in the article a nasty looking superficial wound, he returned later that afternoon, & completed the course w/ a Glock 9mm.

To me this illustrates the following, become very familiar w/ & practice the manual of arms for a given pistol. A heavier trigger pull, a decocking lever, or manual safety will not tolerate lapses in concentration or failure to follow gun safety rules, just as the Glocks safe action trigger will not.
The manual of arms for a given pistol design might differentiate from the next & might not appeal to some people, but that does not make the design unsafe or flawed.
For instance, I prefer the NY 1 trigger for my Glocks, however, it's the Glock triggers approx. 1/8 in. travel to discharge that I've trained myself to be aware of when shooting these pistols. W/ da/sa guns, one has to train themselves to use the decock lever upon reholstering, become proficient w/ two trigger pulls & be aware at all times that after the 1st shot is fired, there's a cocked & unlocked pistol in their hands. And w/ 1911's, it's properly learning to manipulate the thumb & grip safety, & remembering to engage the safety upon reholstering, as well as training w/ a light short stroke trigger.

Barring mechanical defects which can obviously occurr w/ any pistol design, IMO, guns are as safe as their owners, and I beleive these two examples show that even if you have extra devices in place to prevent accidents, one momentary lapse of concentration w/ any firearm can lead to a loud bang when one wasn't expected.

Stay safe & good shootin!
{long shot}

[Seminole1986]

Well put.

[J. Parker]

Ditto, well put. Just don't RAM that Glock in your waistband when UPS rings the doorbell

[Dave T]

I'm going to jump in here because this is one of my pet peeves. I was the chief firearms instructor for a Shriff's Dept. with 400 armed personnel. I was given the job and told to completely revamp the training program because the department got sued over two accidental discharges (both with double action revolvers!). Our authorized weapons were the DA 357Mag revolver and the 45ACP Government Model.
While I was the firearms instructor we had one (1) accidental discharge with the 1911. A Sargent, who by his own admission did exactly the opposit of what we trained, took off the thumb safety and put his finger on the trigger as he and his squad snuck up on a bad guy's trailor. When he stumbled over something in the dark he shot a round into the ground about a foot infront of his boots.
Most of the problems you hear about with police and firearms are TRAINING problems. The vast majority of law enforcement training stinks. I spend my last six (6) years fighting constantly with the administration to get funding and training time. For a number of years we had the best training in our state but it was a constant fight with the Department to keep it that way.
Problems with weapon types, retention holsters, poor shooting performance: all of these things are more training problems than equipment problems. Yes some guns are better than others but good training will solve more problems than buying a different model or caliber weapon.
Sorry about the rant but this is one I know something about.

[12-34hom]

As i stated in FTW thread and now echoed here by others, when you violate gun saftey rules and don't train properly accidents are going to happen.

It's up to each gun owner to know and understand completely the workings of his or her chosen firearm.

It's not about whatever model you've chosen, all designs have valid strong and weak points. Knowing your abilities and working to overcome the flaws in gun design and personal shortcomings can go along ways in insuring that mishaps are avoided and responsible firearm saftey is followed to the letter. Whether that person is shooting a; Glock, Sig, 1911, is not relevent whatsoever.

[long shot]

Thanks for the replies so far, & for adding your input to the point I am trying to make. Guns are inanimate objects & are not unsafe, it's the untrained, unfamiliar user of said gun that poses the problem.

It just bugs me when a quality weapons design is called flawed or unsafe, wether it be a 1911, Glock, HK, Sig, or whatever, this seems the type of propaganda the anti's are supposed to use, not us. Training or lack thereof as Dave T put it, should be made the issue. But I guess for some deptartments or individuals, it's easier to blame an inanimate object rather than accept blame themselves.

A given pistols MOA might not suit every shooters ability or operational needs, but as 12-34hom stated, one must become familiar w/ their chosen weapons workings, be aware of it's strong & weak points, & their own ability level, & train accordingly, & IMO, that's the bottom line, regardless of one's chosen weapon!

Best, long shot!

[TheFederalistWeasel]

If this gun is so “safe”… Then why do you need a foam doo-flochie to block the plastic doo-flochie that Glock calls a “safe-action trigger”?

After rooting around a site or two I have found that Saf-T-Blok is discontinuing all of the blocks aside from the ones for the Glock. I speculate why this is so?
Maybe the sales for the other blocks are in the toilet (because, by design they are not needed) and maybe Glockers are sharp enough to recognize the defect in their choice of handgun.

http://members.aol.com/saftblok/



“SAF-T-BLOK augments the Glock safe-action trigger to prevent accidental discharges. It's especially effective when carrying unconventionally...in a fanny pack or tucked in the belt, etc.”

First off, I thought Glocks didn’t have accidental discharges?

Second, you folks actually stuff that thing in yer waist band loaded?!?!?!




While there are mechanisms to prevent the gun discharging if dropped, etc., there is no external safety catch. If a Glock is loaded, there is no final fail-safe mechanism (manual safety) to prevent firing if the trigger is pulled accidentally or inadvertently. While a Sig has no manual safety, it does have a 12-pound DA trigger pull and a de-cocker. With a Glock and a 5.5-pound trigger (standard trigger according to Glocks Website http://glock.com/te_english.htm ) you might as well carry the Sig cocked or my P7 cocked!

Over a 20 year period, for every ten rounds fired by Seattle police, three shots were accidental! Yet in 1994, despite this record, Glocks were issued amid widespread questions about unintended firings. By 1999 for every ten rounds fired 8 were accidental. Meanwhile, New York police had to produce a training video instructing officers how not to shoot their partners! Their Glocks have been modified twice in an attempt to reduce the number of accidental misfires

Wrongful death lawsuit filed against the manufacturers of the Glock 9mm semiautomatic:
The $7.2 million lawsuit brought by the family of Cheryl Darlene Gates. According to the court, “A Glock semiautomatic pistol is unquestionably a dangerous weapon. Defective -- probably so. Its lack of an external manual safety has lead to more accidental discharges than with any other handgun currently in use by any law enforcement agency in the US”.

TFW

[long shot]

TFW,

It's obvious you don't care for Glocks, & that's fine as I've said before, all guns will not suit all people.

However, there are over 2.5 million Glocks that have been sold, & 65 to 70% of LE carries them. Hell, even the FBI who deemed them unsafe awhile back now issues them.

As far as the saf-t-blok, I know quite a few people who own Glocks, including several LVMPD officers, & not one uses this device. Again if one is uncomfortable w/ the 5.5lb stock trigger they should go w/ one of the NY trigger modules.
But again, it's not only the lighter weight of the trigger that one should train & become compentent with, but more importantly, IMO, one should train for the triggers short reset & 1/8in. travel to discharge. By the way, I don't carry any of my ccw guns "mexican style", all have appropriate rigs suited for carry, regardless of trigger action, as what's down below happens to be my favorite "gun".

Another thing to consider is that there are other companies now going to the light DA trigger pulls similar to Glocks. HK w/ the new LEM trigger, Walther w/ it's quick action design ect.... So I would opine that if Glocks are that unsafe, & LE as a whole had so many negligent discharges w/ them, which have resulted in a mass of lawsuits, they would be switching from this "flawed design in droves, as most agencies would wilt under the public scrutiny, & simply don't have the money in their budgets to cover plaintiff compensation.
But, quite the oposite is true as in the new 2001 Glock annual, the DEA will now start issuing Glock 22's to new agents, & the Kentucky State Police now issues the G-27 as backup. That makes three of the most prestigious LEA in the world that carry the Glock (DEA, U.S. Customs, FBI). Also, many well respected gun rag writers & instructors use Glocks such as Walt Rauch, Mike Boyle, Jim Cirrilo, Massad Ayoob, Frank James, Denis Prisbrey, Dave Spaulding ect., but out of all the guns they've shot & evaluated, I guess they just prefer a flawed design.

With the enourmous success Glock has enjoyed in both the LE & civilian markets, it would seem that if the design were truly flawed or unsafe, that Glocks competitors would have made it a priority to point it out a long time ago, & take advantage of it to discredit Glock & further enhance their own sales, makes sense doesn't it? But low & behold, that's never happend!

Best, long shot!

[BB]

If this gun is so “safe”… Then why do you need a foam doo-flochie to block the plastic doo-flochie that Glock calls a “safe-action trigger”?

I'll answer that question, it's simple: you don't. You don't need a safe-t-block. It's amazing, I've owned many Glocks over the past 10 years, as well as single actions, DA/SA, you name it...never had an ND or AD. The only safety is between your ears. If you can't handle gun safety, than stay away from guns! Period. There is no "this gun design is safer than that gun design", ALL guns are inherently UNSAFE, and should be treated as such.

[BigG]

coupled w/ the fact that the Kydex holster he was sing had a plastic recess that fits inside the trigger gaurd to secure the weapon in the holster caused the ND.

1. Why does it have something that hooks inside the trigger guard?

2. I don't know Long Shot; if you're asking people to take personal responsibility for their actions, your request flies in the face of about 60 years of disinformation foisted on us by our socialist gomit. People will not want to hear that they screwed the pooch. *It's the weapon, dammit* (best Bill Clinton imitation)