June 25, 2013, 08:22 PM | #1 |
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Any good kit sites
i was just wondering if anyone knows of any good sites for flintlock pistol kits to assemble? Im just looking around.
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June 25, 2013, 10:12 PM | #2 |
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I would think Dixie Gun Works and Track Of The Wolf would be good starting points. Maybe the Possibles Shop, Deer Creek and many more. I'm sure more people will be along soon to point you in the right direction.
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June 25, 2013, 10:48 PM | #3 |
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also
Ive also have been looking for a replacement steel frame for my revolver but no luck its a cva but looks like there all the same...I wish it was a still frame gun but its brass and the arbors loose and makes me nervous.
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June 26, 2013, 03:34 AM | #4 |
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A kit from Track of the Wolf would do you justice. I'd stay away from the cheap kits for a flintlock as you will end up with a frizzen that is a poor sparker probably. Very common problem...
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June 26, 2013, 05:21 AM | #5 |
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If Jim Chambers has a pistol kit, I'd start there.
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June 26, 2013, 05:51 AM | #6 |
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Jim does offer a flintlock pistol; I'm not sure if it's a kit or a finished gun, however:
http://www.flintlocks.com/pistols.htm Sitting Fox is another option; Ray's guns are kits: http://www.sittingfoxmuzzleloaders.com/intro.html |
June 26, 2013, 08:58 AM | #7 |
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June 27, 2013, 06:33 PM | #8 |
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I haven't seen any flintlock kits recently. But would you take a CVA Kentucky percussion single shot if the price was real cheap? I am "watching" this percussion Kentucky pistol kit on GB. But I probably won't bid on it. No sights, no bolts no wood screws, no rammer dowel and no brass rammer ends, but the rammer brass underbarrel keepers are there, and it looks like the bolster clean out screw is missing as well as perhaps the nipple, but most everything else is there, a bit of buffing on the buffing wheel will clean that barrel right up of rust, or you could clean it chemically with Twin etch or some other rust remover, and then cold blue it, and you can get the counter sunk brass wood screws anywhere, like at home depot.
The steel bolts in the right length that hold the lock and its brass serpentine on the opposite side to the stock might be a bit harder to find, (same bolts go all the way through the stock to hold both the lock and its brass serpentine which is on the other side) but you can always get longer than you need bolts if necessary and cut some length off with a hacksaw to fit and then clean their cut ends up with a file and blue them. The dovetail cuts are in the barrel for sights and you can find sights online usually pretty easy either on Gunbroker or E bay and file them to fit (if even necessary) and just drift tap them into place. Nipples are on Gunbroker or E bay too. Here's the link if you would take a Kentucky percussion you don't mind scrounging a few parts for and cleaning the rust off the barrel. No idea if it would stay at the cheap price it is or not, but you could watch it and if no one bids higher on it, it would be a real good deal if you don't mind a little work and scrounging to complete it. Pretty easy really when you know what to look for. Sometimes many people will avoid things like this because they don't know how to fix it up. But it's not rocket science and pretty easy to do really, and you can get a good deal if you take on projects like this that many people wouldn't. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=350026187 Here's the same exact CVA gun (but with better grain of wood stock and serpentine replaced with brass washers on opposite side of lock) all put together. (So you can tell what the kit one would look like finished). http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=350289489 The author of the ad probably doesn't know and the ad didn't say what manufacturer it was, but I know its a CVA (Connecticut Valley Arms) pistol. I recognize the lock since it's the same exact identical lock on my percussion CVA .50 cal mountain rifle. If you don't want a percussion one, let me know here and I'll keep a look out for you for a flintlock one as I peruse the auctions (which I do most every day). For some reason, I have noticed flintlocks have really risen in price in the past several years. Used to be 20 or 30 years ago, you almost couldn't give one away. Perhaps revolutionary war reenactors buying them up could be the reason. Not sure though. But I have noticed they usually go for more money than the same exact gun in percussion. .
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June 27, 2013, 10:10 PM | #9 |
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Here is a thought.....
...Although I freely acknowledge this may not be the way to go.
Check out Gunbroker for a used single shot pistol and rather than building a kit, just smooth up the used one. I think this is a good way to save some money and you get to focus on some simple tasks. Just a thought. Tnx, Doc
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June 27, 2013, 10:31 PM | #10 |
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BTW, stay away from that Spanish made Traditions Trapper pistol. It's available in flintlock.
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June 28, 2013, 06:24 AM | #11 |
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I don’t thin colonial war re-enactors are buying up flintlock kits Bill . At least not the CVA , Traditions or Jukar kits . There just isn’t much about them that fits in todays re-enacting . That being said , if a person knows how to re work them , they can come out very nice .
As to kits . First think I would ask is whats your experience level . Places like Chambers ,Pecatonica , Track of the wolf , The Rifle shoppe , North Star West, The Hawkens Shop, Muzzleloader Builder Supply, Muzzleloading Emporium and unless Ray has changed his line at Sitting Fox , none sell kits . What they sell are parts assemblies. Yes I know many of them provide inletting . But Unless you Buying from Jim “Chambers “ your really wasting you money IMO when you pay those fees . You will be doing the inletting that’s going to mater . Plus drilling tapping , trigger alignments , all the final shaping ….. Now the way you could go is to ask for a (gun in the white ) when you ask for that , then you will get a Kit that’s somewhat like a production manufactured kit in that its all put together and the parts just drop in . BUTT you have to do the finish work . Also each maker has his own level of finish so . (in the white ) could mean just final sanding all the way to shaping and hardware finishing . If your looking for a production kit like a Lyman or Traditions you can order those through most any sporting goods location or places like Dixie . Even Wal-Mart can order them for you . Just ask the department manager for their Firearms order catalog. As to pistols . All of the above places I listed , also sell pistol assemblies . Production (KITS) can be found at the other places as well . I would also agree 100% with the idea of buying a used piece and rebuilding it . Just be sure the barrel is in good shape and be prepared to replace the lock or at some time replacing it . Also be very awear the the quality of the total piece can very greatly if your looking at one of the old manufactured pieces like ; CVA , Jukar , Markwell , Ultra Hi, EFI just to name a few . So if your going to be doing a lot of shooting , chose wisely and stay clear of the mark well and early Ultra Hi But if you watch and hold out for a Pedersoli , Browning , Ithica , Remington , Navy Arms , chances are your going to get better locks, barrels ……. . In the vast majority of cases , folks that built the above , just bolted them together and didn’t really do all the work that’s needed in the stock shaping .thus they can be turned into nice piece with alittle more work . In Fact if you take one of the modern manufactured kits and really get down to re working it , a person can learn a lot about shaping at a very reasonable price Again the important part on used pistols is that the barrel is good and the lock proper . All else is depending on your skill . Stocks can be reshaped or simply replaced which is IMO the best thing to do anyway . But that’s up to the person bringing the piece back |
June 28, 2013, 10:07 PM | #12 |
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im a tinkerer i already have had many guns apart to the last screw. blackpowder not really but i think its a lil more craftsman than anything.
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June 29, 2013, 06:38 AM | #13 |
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taking them a part isnt any real big deal and is pretty basic once you know what not to lose LOL .
If your knowledge is in assembly and disassembly or manufactured piece , then I would steer clear of the main companies and stay with the manufactured kits the hard part is the proper inletting of parts . Being able to locate the parts with the knowledge of how those parts fit in relation to other parts so that they work properly. Then being able to properly locate , then drill and tap holes , cut dove tails , set pins or keys . But then that’s only part of it . Some knowledge of wood working will be needed with a background knowledge of what the gun your working on is supposed to look like . Please understand im not saying a person cant learn . All im wanting to get across is for you to have some idea of what your getting . You would be surprised at the number of folks who go out and spend 5-700 on a parts assembly from a place like Track of the wolf , only to get it and be overwhelmed with the actual work and knowlage thats needed to be able to make it all come together . Not to mention have the end result reasonable . Knowing that , If you feel you have the skill set , then buy a good building book . Read it . If after that "IF" your still in the frame of mind to take on the task , then buy the best set of parts you can afford and make your run . There is a lot of gratification when its all completed Last edited by Captchee; June 29, 2013 at 09:32 PM. |
June 29, 2013, 07:44 AM | #14 |
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What Captchee said. I tried building a 95% kit once. Won't make that mistake again.
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June 29, 2013, 12:38 PM | #15 |
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Actually I'm not at all sure what Captchee said. I couldn't follow most of it.
A few minutes on the phone with the sutler will establish whether or not the kit you're interested in is compatible with your skill set, tool set and experience. This really isn't a mystery. |
June 29, 2013, 09:06 PM | #16 | |
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OK Mykeal
Let me break it down for you Gun A is from a modern manufacture like Lyman and is a” KIT” Gun B is from a company Likes Track of the wolf Now lets look at gun (A) When you open the box what do you see . 1) lock stock and barrel plus a bag of assorted screws and brass parts 2) an instruction manual that basically , says ; step 1 Insert lock into stock as shown Step 2 insert screw # into first hole in stock and tighten The instruction go on and on like this and then finish by adding some suggestions on what finishes to use on the stock and barrel . Then some recommended loads for the gun . Now lets look at gun (B) You just spent another 2 to 300 hundred over the cost of gun A. Lets say it’s a pre carve with the barrel channel done , ram rod hole drilled . Lets also say you paid to have the company do the inletting and drilling . You also paid to have the dove tails cut for sights and under lugs . after all Quote:
But ,you open the box and what do you see . Well you see a partially shaped stock . A barrel , a Ram rod and a couple bags of parts which include a lock , hardware that’s in casting and another bag with RR thimbles , pins screws and such . Guess what you don’t see . An instruction manual But ha , how hard can it be , you paid for all the inletting right . Well wrong !!!!!. First thing you will find is that unlike gun A, the lock wont fit into the inlet. Not only is the inlet to small but its also not deep enough . The trigger inlet is also to small . The barrel fits in the channel but the tang has not been inlet yet . The butt plate looks like it will fit but then when you go to put it on , its doesn’t fit tight . So you set back and go HMMM? Something is wrong , I paid for all this . So you give the company a call only to find out that the service you paid for is PARTUAL inletting and not complete fitting . But ha , you can do it right ! . So you jump in starting with the butt plate . Do you know you have to file , flatten and then finish the butt plate before you fit it ? Would you be surprised if I told you that a whole lot of folks DON’T know that . But lets say you stumble through . You then inlet the lock to the point it touches the barrel . Drill your lock holes . The set back and admire your work . Patting yourself on the back for a job well done . Next you inlet the trigger only to find it doesn’t work properly . Next thing you know your on the internet asking why your new set triggers must be set before cocking the lock . Why you have a trigger pull from hell Why your set trigger wont fire the lock Why the triggers wont set at all or the lock wont stay cocked But you get that all worked out with some good help . So now you jump to the barrel only to find that you have to fit the breech plug . Do you know how to properly do that ??? So again your asking for help and you work through it only to find that once you inlet the tang , your rear lock bolt goes through the back of the breech . Not the back of the tang support , but the breech . To top that off your flash hole doesn’t align with the pan OR your drum bolster doesn’t set to the lock as it should . When you tighten the lock bolts the lock tilts . IE you didn’t know that the lock sets to a shelf while at the same time mating to the side of the barrel When you shoulder the rifle you have to reach forward to get to the triggers . Well guess what , you paid for the butt plate to be inlet but that inlet wasn’t to your length of pull . So now you have a stock that set up for a 14 ¼ pull when you have a 12 ¾ Now lets ay you figure out you ramrod thimbles have to have their tabs trimmed down so as to not interfere with the barrel . Some how along the way you figured out how to measure for the pins for those thimbles. Not to mention how to measure for the under lug pins without drilling through the barrel . But after all that , when you go to slide your RR into the stock , it wont go . Guess what , your front lock bolt ended up going through the RR hole OR because you cut what you thought was casting spurs of the trigger guard , the screws you ended up using to hold it on , end up in the RR channel So your back on the phone to the manufacture who tells you that you didn’t follow the proper building order so as to insure all those parts fit to the proper relationship with each other and thus work as they should . They then recommend to you to either re fit all the parts properly and fill up all the gaps in the inletting that’s obviously in the wrong place OR buy a new stock and start over . Now lets say that by this time you have not lost interest and set the thing in the corner . Lets say you get it all together with many , MANY hours of talking to builders and gunsmiths on the internet instructing you on how to fix the mistakes you made along the way . To be frank , you more then likely have a nothing more then a 700 .00 dollar **** When if you would have just bought a good building book first , it would have told you what you were getting into so you could avoid most of the pit falls while at the same time given you an educated idea as to IF your capable of putting together such an assembly . BUT ha , that’s another 30-40 buck on top of the 5-700 you just spent on parts. Would you be surprised if I told you that there are people who think those books cost to much . If so you shouldn’t be Before you tell me that doesn’t happen , let me say that I have spent most of my life building these rifles for people . I cant tell you the number of times I get a call or people bring in these parts assemblies that they have started and cant complete OR they have looked in the box and then got a big ball in their stomach when they realize that they did not get what they though they were going to get and thus have no idea where to even start . OR The ones that I really feel bad for are the ones who bring me a gun that they did something to after getting some bad advice off the internet.. Most recently I had a nices SXS come in . the person was a first time builder and frankly did a prtty darn good job for his first piece . But he had watched some U tube where a guy was bluing a barrel with a torch . The result was his barrels turned up like a banana . My point again is that a (KIT) is not always a kit, if you don’t have the knowledge and skills to put together one of these parts assemblies, then you better seek out that knowledge prior. They are not like putting together a Lyman , CVA , traditions or TC kit which just about anyone who can take apart something and put it back together can do . If thats the skilllevel you have , your probably better off buying that parts assinbly in the form of an 'IN THE WHITE" gun that you can take apart and finish as you like I sure hope you can understand that Last edited by Captchee; June 29, 2013 at 09:15 PM. |
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June 29, 2013, 09:30 PM | #17 | |
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Quote:
all to many times when people say "Kit " they think they are getting a drop together piece like some CVA or TC they built at some time . at least get a good book or find a experienced person near you who is willing to let you apprentice the build under their supervision. Myself , the only person who provides these assemblies who in my experience provides 100% of what he says , is Jim chambers . You pay him for inletting and drilling , that’s what you get |
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June 29, 2013, 10:09 PM | #18 |
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You've apparently had a very hard time building a gun. I'm sorry things went so badly for you. I feel fortunate that my experiences were much better.
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June 29, 2013, 10:41 PM | #19 |
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i been building guns since i was 10 .
i have seen alot of what people do and go through. i dont have any trouble building guns , i just dont care for folks misleading people. i believe that if someone is wanting to get started , they should know up front what they are getting into but im sure you have a much vaster knowledge then i . |
June 30, 2013, 04:58 AM | #20 |
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I don't claim to have 'vaster' knowledge. I'm simply saying that your indictment of the sutlers for false claims is not my experience; in fact, your attitude is unique amongst the many people I know in this sport.
I wonder - if the sutlers were so misleading and deceitful, how do they stay in business? |
June 30, 2013, 08:17 AM | #21 |
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lets be clear , im not saying they "companies "are misleading,, where did I say that ?
Don’t put words in my mouth . What I am saying is people should know just what it is they are spending their hard earned money on . They should not assume that because some person on the internet says a gun from company X is a KIT , that putting together such a kit involves nothing more then screwing parts together . yet all to often thats just what happens mostly becouse thats what they get from topics like this one where we link everything into one class called "KITS", without being clear just what the diffrences are . If a persons past experience with “KIT” guns is putting together a CVA or TC and thus expect the , as you put it “KITS” to be like that , they are going to have a very rude awakening . The problem stems from a misunderstanding of just what it is a person is buying / paying forNOT from a purposful attempt to miss lead anyone . At the same time , I do feel that when a company advertises and charges an inletting fee that’s what should be provided . IE the ALL parts should be actualy inlet and inlet properly . Drilling fee . Well to me that means that all the drilling is done . IE the lock plate is drilled for the lock bolts . The lock is also drilled , Butt plate , Triggers , TG , thimbles …. All have been drilled . But in fairness to these companies , how can they do that without building the gun to the stage of being “In the White “ the simple fact is they cant and still charge what they do . There are exceptions . Jim (chambers) or Dan (Caywood) come to mind quickly . If a person buys one of Jims rifles , the inletting in my experience is very, VERY good Same with Danny’s work , If you can get him to just send you a parts assembly . But your also going to pay an increased cost for their offerings . Comparing those two makers against something from say ToW or MBS and you will quickly see a big difference. However “IF” they have paid to have the gun built in the white , which for the most part means the gun is 90-95% completed, that’s a different story . That customer IMO then has the right to expect the gun to have all its parts fit with minimal finish work to complete the piece. But , even “IN the white “ means different things to different makers . As such a person has to ask to what level the gun is finished . I don’t know how I can make it any more clear and not go into my personal preferences as to the different companies i deal with and why . As to “sport “ what are you talking about ? do you think its sporting when a person is standing in front of you asking for help because they bit off more then they can chew? Do they think its sporting when you have tell them how much its going to cost to fix the mistakes they have made or to correct poor quality in the manufacturing of those parts . Myself , I don’t find it sporting at all . In fact there are times I wish I could just say; yep I understand , let me fix this for you , no charge . But I cant . what I can do is reach a hand across the counter and do my best to inform people so they can make a somewhat educated purchase . When that hasn’t worked , when I can , I offer my shop , my tools , my experience to help the person through the build . Other times once or twice a year I have someone who wants to build their own gun and is willing to apprentice. I don’t charge for that past the cost of the parts they chose to buy . The only part I will not teach them to make is the barrel . I have a young man right now who has cast all his own parts , built his own double set triggers . made a lock as well as cut and shaped his own stock from plank to gunstock . SPORT?? PLEASE !~!!!!, its a life for me and something i have enjoyed and will continue to enjoy.. I want others who are interested to enjoy it as well and that’s why I say what I say Last edited by Captchee; June 30, 2013 at 08:31 AM. |
June 30, 2013, 07:03 PM | #22 |
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This has gone on far too long.
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June 30, 2013, 08:39 PM | #23 |
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