Polish P64 - pitting and rust

[wingedcavalry]

Is this salvageable? I got a 'very nice' condition P64 from an online vendor, and it came looking like this. Can I use 0000 steel wool + oil and get scrubbing and turn out all right? I'm not holding a grenade am I?

http://imgur.com/a/0Rodm

[Doyle]

That isn't bad at all and won't show. Yes, a little steel wool will clean it up. If you really want to get obsessive with it, use a little cold blue after you clean it then re-oil to prevent future rust.

[wingedcavalry]

Thanks so much for replying. I was initially worried that maybe I'd affect the integrity of the frame/barrel at that location, but steel woool takes serious effort and time to do so right? Some of the pits are a little deep, I don't have to buff it until it's completely flush with the rest of the chamber right?

[Dan-O]

My P-64 feels like a grenade going off in my hand when shot. Little bugger has some bite.

[Doyle]

I don't have to buff it until it's completely flush with the rest of the chamber right?

You really don't have to do it at all. There is nothing there that will affect the pistol's serviceability.

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by wingedcavalry

I'm not holding a grenade am I?

No, but it might feel like it. That handgun is not one of the most user-friendly models. It's safe but sometimes painful to shoot.

[Model12Win]

What vendor?

I would contact them and demand a replacement.

Sorry, but their is nothing "very nice" about that kind of corrosion. It looks awful, and you deserve better.

[wingedcavalry]

I contacted them and they're offering USPS priority return label, BUT my lgs (that I had the ffl transfer done at) is unwilling to return it for me, citing that they're a busy shop and they perform returns for customers only. I contacted a seperate store nearby, and their quote is $45 shipping. I really don't want to pay shipping plus another transfer fee, I'm just going to clean it up best I can. Is there any danger of scrubbing away the chamber too much at that area, and weakening it? Doesn't the round expand around there?

I feel like I'm getting screwed over by the vendor and my lgs

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by wingedcavalry

I contacted them and they're offering USPS priority return label, BUT my lgs (that I had the ffl transfer done at) is unwilling to return it for me, citing that they're a busy shop and they perform returns for customers only.

Well, I'd argue that you WERE a customer, if you PAID them to do the transfer when the gun was transferred in...

About all they had to do was open the package and put your info in their record book, and contact you. The paper work might've taken 5 minutes.

To return the weapon, all they've got to do is put the weapon in their Bound Book and send it back -- and the postage is already paid for. There's little or no cost to them -- except may wrapping it up. You should pay a small extra fee to have the gun boxed/wrapped, but that's about it.

I'd start looking for another place to do business.

As for removing the rust:

1) You seem to be new to the topic, so that's probably why you think it's worse than it is. You have a trivial rust problem -- if you ignored it you'd be alright for a long time.

2) Your firearm isn't THAT delicate. It's unlikely that rust would ever do enough damage to make the barrel or chamber unsafe. Other things (like the linkage between the trigger and hammer) would quit working long before the metal degraded enough to be dangerous.

You can remove the rust if you use something like the green scrub pads used in the kitchen for Teflon pots and pans (available at a local grocery store), an SOS pad, or just about any type of steel wool. Any of those will take off the rust and have almost no effect on the underlying metal. Rinse it when you're done, dry it, and give a very light coat of oil (something like Breakfree CLP). There are a lot of Cleaner/Lubricant/Protective (CLP) type materials available.

(Keep in mind that BLUING is a form of rust, done uniformly, and if kept oiled, it won't get worse. Rust is just metal that has oxidized after contact with moisture and oxygen. Salts can speed things up. Any CLP-type cleaner/lubricant should keep it under control.)

[wingedcavalry]

Thanks a lot Walt, I needed that reassurance

also one more question. Under the trigger guard, in certain light the bluing turns rustic red/brown colored. I'm guessing that's just discoloration of the bluing? I think I've read about plum colored bluing in older guns.

[Doyle]

Get yourself some fine steel wool and a can of CLP. You can take off any surface rust with that and it will leave a layer of protection to prevent future rust.

Having owned two P-64s, let me give you some good advise. First, get yourself a replacement main spring from wolf. Most use the 18lb spring. That weight worked perfectly on my first P-64. My second one needed to go down to a 17lb spring to get the DA trigger to my satisfaction.

Second, when you are putting on the grip screw - DON'T OVERTIGHTEN. You'll crack that plastic grip. Get yourself some non-permanent thread locker liquid and put a drop on the screw then snug it up firm but not really tight.

[Ibmikey]

Just to reaffirm what others have said about your rust issue, i would clean it with break free and OOOO steel wool whether covering with cold blue...that just may help cosmetically but not needed and the barrel integrity will not suffer in the least.
Shoot the little bugger if you must but my two spend more time in the depths of the safe than in the shooting bag. The P 64 in my opinion is my most unpleasant pistol to fire, and i have over a hundred pistols!

[Frontier4]

Purchased my p64 last summer. Dated 1972 has slight holster wear around the muzzle. I guess I was lucky it had no refinement needed. I feel bad for you since mine is very gently used and well maintained. I would think you could use 3000 grit sandpaper and steel wool. I would also look into the copper penny method then hit with a cold blue pen. You could also leave it with no protective finish and just oil regularly. In the pics the barrel near the chamber it looks like it had deep grooves. It sucks to get something cosmetically blemished, but yours should run fine cleaned and oiled. I have what seems to be some rust starting on a new production Zastava M57 7.62x25 on the frame front strap. All my ladies are stored in a climate controlled safe and oiled once monthly. Wipe them down after each handling. Metal rusts...no matter what. YouTube some refinishing techniques. Or pay someone to cerakote/re blue it. Crome or nickel would look classy

I love to shoot my p64 and find it very pleasant. Strong hands but on the smaller side. Wear medium gloves mostly...it's great to shoot but empties quickly

[Bill DeShivs]

If you use steel wool, use it dry. Using oil creates an abrasive slurry.
Also, don't use Scotchbrite pads or any type of sandpaper. They will take the bluing right off.
Don't think cold bluing has any protective qualities-it doesn't. It's for cosmetics only.

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by Billl DeShivs

Don't think cold bluing has any protective qualities-it doesn't. It's for cosmetics only.

Any form of bluing (or the older plum-colored finish seen on antique weapons) is a chemically-induced form of controlled rusting used to preempt other more-damaging forms of rust that would form on unfinished bare metal. Most of these cold blue products, as you say, aren't that effective -- good for looks, but not much else. Nearly all, however, will retard rust better than unfinished metal

I've tried a bunch of different cold blues over the years and found that Brownell's Oxypho Blue works better than most cold blues, if you follow the instructions[/U]. Multiple applications of Oxypho Blue, with the metal heated, seems to improve it's effectiveness.

For a small damaged or worn areas, cold bluing may be the only cost-effective option unless you can do the hot-bluing yourself -- as it's not something that most gun-owners will do themselves, and not a lot of gunsmiths will, either. If you have to SHIP a hand gun to firm that does hot bluing, the costs jump dramatically!

One problem with cold blues is that the cold-blued area may NOT match the original finish. That said, even the best cold blued finish will have to be touched up from time to time in guns that see a lot of use, especially in high use areas like the front or back strap. Touch up is easily done and not expensive.

[Bill DeShivs]

Walt- most cold blues-including Oxpho Blue electrolessly plate a thin, porous layer of blackened copper sulfide on to the metal. This colors the metal, but it is not a controlled form of rusting. Most cold blues seem to PROMOTE rusting, rather than prevent it.

[tallball]

A little bit of fine steel wool, some oil, some cold blue, and you're good.

I have "rescued" several handguns that were rustier than that one. I never needed more than I listed above.

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

Walt- most cold blues-including Oxpho Blue electrolessly plate a thin, porous layer of blackened copper sulfide on to the metal. This colors the metal, but it is not a controlled form of rusting. Most cold blues seem to PROMOTE rusting, rather than prevent it.

You may be correct, and I'm certainly not any sort of a chemist, but Oxypho Blue appears to be a bit different than some of the other Cold Blues and doesn't seem to be primarily copper sulfide. There is a little copper in the solution.

The bottle says OxyPho Blue, "contains Phosphoric and Selenious Acid, Cupric and Nickel Sulfate." Those items are typically listed in the order of volume with the biggest volume listed first, on down to the least. If that's the case, things other than copper (or a version of copper sulfate, if that's what is in there) make up most of what's in the bottle.

Wikipedia says that Phosphoric acid is a rust inhibiter (but doesn't explain how it does that); it also says that Selenious acid is used to color metal. That same source says that Cupric (which is a form of copper) resists water and forms a rust-like coating; copper is also used as an antidote for Phosphoric acid poisoning -- which may explain it's presence in the OxyPho Blue mix. I can't find much about nickel sulfate or what it does, but because in most forms it's blue, it may also be a coloring agent. Copper sulfate is the third ingredient listed, so OxyPho Blue is clearly not mostly copper sulfate.

In steel when the surface oxidizes, the result is called rust. With copper, oxidation's result is called verdigris. If a cold-blued gun "rusts" after being treated by a particular cold bluing solution, what you see could be verdigris or it could be that the bluing solution was not properly applied. As I said, I'm not a chemist (or metallurgist), but don't see how cold bluing would CAUSE rusting.

I've never had problems with OxyPho-blued guns rusting, but will agree that the finish is somewhat porous; all cold blue makers tell you to keep the finishes oiled. I just use BreakFree CLP, and that seems to do the job.

Some cold blues, when applied, do sometimes cause spectacular reactions that look like rust when first applied, but I've never seen that with OxyPho Blue. That may be because the application process include applying multiple coats, but always wiping it dry with a soft cloth and and burnishing the finish with very fine steel wool between applications.

.

[Bill DeShivs]

Regardless of what is in it, cold blue does not "blue" metal in the traditional sense. It uses an electroless plating method to transfer other metals onto the steel.
If it doesn't promote rust (in many cases it does,) it certainly doesn't prevent rust.
Cold blues are for touch up coloring of metals. I have used most of them.

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

Regardless of what is in it, cold blue does not "blue" metal in the traditional sense. It uses an electroless plating method to transfer other metals onto the steel.
If it doesn't promote rust (in many cases it does,) it certainly doesn't prevent rust.
Cold blues are for touch up coloring of metals. I have used most of them.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. I've used most of them, too.

And I acknowledge I was wrong about cold blues being a form of controlled rusting -- as "rust" is a technical term that doesn't apply to the way they work.

You made three claims:

1. that Oxpho-Blue, like other cold blues, is copper sulfide used to blacken the metal,
2. that Oxpho-Blue did not inhibit rust, and
3. that Oxpho-Blue -- like all cold blues -- increased the likelihood of rust.

I found the following:

1. the main ingredient in Oxpho-Blue, Phosphoric acid, is considered a rust inhibitor. It is apparently different than the other cold blues -- if they all use copper sulfides to do the job;
2. that the next ingredient, Selenius acid, is used to color the metal; and
3. while there is some copper in the Oxpho-Blue solution, it may not be there to color the metal; it may be there as to make the Phosphoric acid less toxic for the user.

You've made three claims about cold blue solutions and that may be correct for some of them, but I'm not sure they apply to Oxpho-Blue.

[Bill DeShivs]

Why do you always want to argue with me?
Here is my statement: Cold blues suck- for many reasons. They don't protect against rust and they aren't good for refinishing guns because they look bad.
How's that?

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

Why do you always want to argue with me?

Sometimes you're arguing with me, disputing things I've said, rather than the other way around. It happens all the time when the discussion is about coil springs. (And I'd note that some fairly knowledgeable folks, most of them engineers familiar with the subject, including a metallurgist or two, tend to take my side in those discussions.)

It's your general practice to make claims that aren't supported by facts, evidence, or any other proofs that you're right. You did THAT in this brief exchange. I generally try to offer examples, or otherwise try to back up my statements with evidence or facts. I've also been known to acknowledge my errors when it's shown that I'm wrong. You tend to argue from authority, which is the same as saying, "I'm an expert and I know what I'm talking about -- trust me."

That said, I believe you are an expert in some areas, but not all; I'd never dispute what you write about knives, knife blades or the springs used in knives. But you're the only one who talks about that topic in this semi-auto forum. You seem to feel your experience with leaf springs is directly applicable to coil springs. You may be right, but that remains to be seen.

Would I want to cold-blue a gun that is in the white? No. (But I have done that.) Would I want to cold-blue a damaged area on an otherwise collectible weapon? (No, but I've done that, too. Part of my reasoning for doing so was that it looked terrible, and were I to have the weapon hot blued, the collector value would be even more degraded.) That Luger was a bring back WWII Luger with matching holster and magazine, take-down tool, etc. The Oxpho-Blue repair on the front strap was indistinguishable from an otherwise original "factory" blue. That was a lucky repair, but lucky things do happen; I wouldn't bet on it happening again with a different weapon.

I'll agree that most cold blue solutions aren't very good, but I don't think they're all the same, that all are primarily copper sulfide (your claim), or that they all are as bad as you claim. For many folks, cold blue solutions may be the only practical response to a given problem.