San Francisco bans Black Talon ammunition - Page 2

**Aguila Blanca** · April 18, 2013, 05:17 PM

But the term "identical twins" has a specific meaning. It refers to twins resulting from the fertilization of a single ovum by a single sperm cell, which ovum then splits in uterus. This is different from "fraternal twins," which refers to two ova fertilized at the same time and developing simultaneously. Identical twins will have identical DNA; fraternal twins will not. (And identical twins must always be the same gender, whereas fraternal twins may be of different genders).

Beyond that, "identical" means what the dictionary says it means, unless a law using the term defines it differently in the law itself.

ClydeFrog · April 18, 2013, 06:06 PM

When are they going to stop those vicious cop killer bullets, KTW, which also hasn't been produced in the USA in nearly 25 years.

Don't tell these San Frannys about www.firequest.com & all the crazy 12ga shells they sell; legally in the USA(note; some 12ga loads are not street legal in a few places).

No wonder POTUS Obama is so ashamed of US gun owners.

ClydeFrog

scrubcedar · April 18, 2013, 06:25 PM

If it saves even one mugger,home invader,gangbanger, carjacker life.

tynman · April 18, 2013, 07:07 PM

That might just be a test to see if it passes. Now they will try to pass a ban on .223 and the 308 ammo. Once the get to .22LR then you know your in trouble.. Cause If they cant take the guns they will take the ammo. So the only thing the gun will be good for is to throw it at the attacker...

ClydeFrog · April 18, 2013, 07:28 PM

Funny!

rc · April 18, 2013, 11:16 PM

So if you paint the tips of the bullets white and throw away the boxes does the ammunition meet compliance standards? After all by definition, black talon ammo can't be white or copper colored like SXT

This is one of those laws designed to give cops excuses to harass people that have done nothing wrong just because........... These idiots need to spend a few nights in state prison "just because". We can call it training for lawmakers. Punishment should fit the crime and not be all out of proportion to the harm done to others.

Derius_T · April 19, 2013, 12:50 AM

It seems more like a test to see if something like this can get past, and be made law. If it does, it opens the doors for similar bans. That is the only scarey part to me.

Bartholomew Roberts · April 19, 2013, 06:33 AM

The ban is not only on Black Talons; but any product sold to military or law enforcement only, or something ballistically identical.

And read the last part of the ordinance, which is particularly disturbing... It sas SFPD will maintain a database of what they decide is "prohibited ammunition" but that the failure to maintain that database or the failure to not list a type of ammo in it, is not a defense to prosecution.

Essentially, they are saying that even if they don't list the ammo as prohibited in their database, they can still convict you. Sounds to me like the city of San Francisco is ready to paysome more gun attorneys money.

**4V50 Gary** · April 19, 2013, 10:56 AM

San Francisco has a tradition of anti-2A laws that get slapped down in the CA courts (preempted by CA laws). The result is that the city spends $1 million to defend their illegal laws.

Kochman · April 19, 2013, 11:13 AM

Which is way less than they spend on other stupid programs...
I can't believe the citizens not only tolerate it, BUT VOTE FOR IT...

Anywhere Pelosi can get 85% of the vote...

JimDandy · April 19, 2013, 11:17 AM

And Feinstein. San Fran is her home town. Of course, it's also home of the Twinkie defense (Yes, Spats, Zuk, Vanya, Frank, et al. I know the defense wasn' t exactly twinkie or even successful

)

Kochman · April 19, 2013, 11:18 AM

She manages to slime her way into STATEWIDE office... amazingly.

vranasaurus · April 19, 2013, 11:20 AM

The inability to readily discern what conduct is prohibited seems to me to violate due process.

JimDandy · April 19, 2013, 11:38 AM

Quote:

seems to me to violate due process.

Oh yeah. The fact that Mr Pflueger and I can be having a reasonable disagreement over just how much latitude is inherent in "identical" in a commercially available item with a variance from round to round in batch to batch in firearm to firearm with barrel length to barrel length where both arguments are reasonable, and convincing hangs a big sign on Due Process and the possibility of prosecutorial abuse.

speedrrracer · April 19, 2013, 11:40 AM

You all should read this update

http://www.calgunlaws.com/facing-nra...ion-after-all/

April 18, 2013, 06:06 PM	#27
ClydeFrog Junior member Join Date: May 1, 2010 Posts: 5,797	KTW bullets... When are they going to stop those vicious cop killer bullets, KTW, which also hasn't been produced in the USA in nearly 25 years. Don't tell these San Frannys about www.firequest.com & all the crazy 12ga shells they sell; legally in the USA(note; some 12ga loads are not street legal in a few places). No wonder POTUS Obama is so ashamed of US gun owners. ClydeFrog Last edited by ClydeFrog; April 18, 2013 at 06:11 PM.

April 18, 2013, 06:25 PM	#28
scrubcedar Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2012 Location: Southwestern Colorado Posts: 507	If it saves even one mugger,home invader,gangbanger, carjacker life. __________________ Gaily bedight, A gallant knight In sunshine and in shadow, Had journeyed long, Singing a song, In search of El Dorado

April 18, 2013, 07:28 PM	#30
ClydeFrog Junior member Join Date: May 1, 2010 Posts: 5,797	Post #28... Funny!

April 19, 2013, 10:56 AM	#34
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,831	San Francisco has a tradition of anti-2A laws that get slapped down in the CA courts (preempted by CA laws). The result is that the city spends $1 million to defend their illegal laws. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

April 18, 2013, 05:17 PM	#26
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,459	But the term "identical twins" has a specific meaning. It refers to twins resulting from the fertilization of a single ovum by a single sperm cell, which ovum then splits in uterus. This is different from "fraternal twins," which refers to two ova fertilized at the same time and developing simultaneously. Identical twins will have identical DNA; fraternal twins will not. (And identical twins must always be the same gender, whereas fraternal twins may be of different genders). Beyond that, "identical" means what the dictionary says it means, unless a law using the term defines it differently in the law itself.

April 18, 2013, 07:07 PM	#29
tynman Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2012 Location: NJ Posts: 361	That might just be a test to see if it passes. Now they will try to pass a ban on .223 and the 308 ammo. Once the get to .22LR then you know your in trouble.. Cause If they cant take the guns they will take the ammo. So the only thing the gun will be good for is to throw it at the attacker...

April 18, 2013, 11:16 PM	#31
rc Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2001 Location: CA Posts: 1,763	So if you paint the tips of the bullets white and throw away the boxes does the ammunition meet compliance standards? After all by definition, black talon ammo can't be white or copper colored like SXT This is one of those laws designed to give cops excuses to harass people that have done nothing wrong just because........... These idiots need to spend a few nights in state prison "just because". We can call it training for lawmakers. Punishment should fit the crime and not be all out of proportion to the harm done to others.

April 19, 2013, 12:50 AM	#32
Derius_T Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2004 Location: South West OHIO (boondocks) Posts: 1,337	It seems more like a test to see if something like this can get past, and be made law. If it does, it opens the doors for similar bans. That is the only scarey part to me.

April 19, 2013, 06:33 AM	#33
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	The ban is not only on Black Talons; but any product sold to military or law enforcement only, or something ballistically identical. And read the last part of the ordinance, which is particularly disturbing... It sas SFPD will maintain a database of what they decide is "prohibited ammunition" but that the failure to maintain that database or the failure to not list a type of ammo in it, is not a defense to prosecution. Essentially, they are saying that even if they don't list the ammo as prohibited in their database, they can still convict you. Sounds to me like the city of San Francisco is ready to paysome more gun attorneys money.

April 19, 2013, 11:13 AM	#35
Kochman Junior member Join Date: April 14, 2013 Location: Erph Posts: 110	Which is way less than they spend on other stupid programs... I can't believe the citizens not only tolerate it, BUT VOTE FOR IT... Anywhere Pelosi can get 85% of the vote...

April 19, 2013, 11:17 AM	#36
JimDandy Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2012 Posts: 2,556	And Feinstein. San Fran is her home town. Of course, it's also home of the Twinkie defense (Yes, Spats, Zuk, Vanya, Frank, et al. I know the defense wasn' t exactly twinkie or even successful )

April 19, 2013, 11:18 AM	#37
Kochman Junior member Join Date: April 14, 2013 Location: Erph Posts: 110	She manages to slime her way into STATEWIDE office... amazingly.

April 19, 2013, 11:20 AM	#38
vranasaurus Senior Member Join Date: November 16, 2008 Posts: 1,184	The inability to readily discern what conduct is prohibited seems to me to violate due process.

April 19, 2013, 11:40 AM	#40
speedrrracer Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2011 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 317	You all should read this update http://www.calgunlaws.com/facing-nra...ion-after-all/