New to the sport and need help

AZwarts · December 2, 2009, 09:22 PM

Hello,
I am just getting into sporting clays and wanted advice on wether it makes a difference to get a .12 gauge or a .20 gauge. Currently i have been offered a Remington model 870 in .20 gauge. Any thoughts? thank you

Also, most of the guys in my church get together and go hunting. Will a .20 have enough knock down for birds such as quail and pheasent

Homer-Sm · December 2, 2009, 09:25 PM

20 gauge would put you at a disadvantage. To learn, and build confidence I would suggest starting with a 12 gauge.

Then as you progress or look for more challenges then go with a smaller gauge.

BUT then again. If you start with the 20 and get good. Then go to the 12 gauge you'll smoke everything you see.

zoomie · December 2, 2009, 09:25 PM

I use a 20 and break them just as well as the guys with 12s. I also miss them just as cleanly.

AZwarts · December 2, 2009, 09:36 PM

Thanks for the input I have shot sporting clays with both calibers and I didn't feel a real difference although i am used to a .12. My friend is selling me a .20 model 870 for 250

oneounceload · December 2, 2009, 10:07 PM

There aren't any targets out there that a 20 won't break and a 12 will. That being said, the better availability and wider selection of ammo choices, added with the extra weight, makes the 12 the practical choice. Weight is your friend when it comes to shooting a lot of targets. Coupled with light target loads, you'll minimize the devastating long-term effects of a lot of recoil

zippy13 · December 2, 2009, 11:58 PM

Greetings, AZwarts, and welcome aboard.

Oneounceload is right on the mark about there being a much greater selection of ammo with a 12-ga. If you're concerned that the 12-ga will be overkill or have a heavy recoil, it can always be loaded with lighter loads that duplicate the 20-ga. On the other hand, if you fell under-gunned with the 20-ga, it can't be up loaded to duplicate a 12ga. Trust me, my first shotgun purchase was a 20-ga, I was soon disappointed and purchased a 12. I was in the service at the time and the base trap and skeet club had reloaded ammo at a very low price, but only in 12-ga.

Homer-Sm is correct about first becoming proficient with a 12-ga and then progress to a 20-ga for more challenges. I suspect, with the purchase of your friend's 20-ga, you'll eventually have a 12-ga, too.

Have fun with your new gun and be safe.

BigJimP · December 3, 2009, 12:59 PM

Like others advised - the difference is more psychological than anything else. The typical load for a 20ga is 7/8 oz of shot / vs the more typical load for 12ga of 1 oz or 1 1/8 oz of shot.

But delivering 7/8 oz of shot at 1200 fps downrange / hits exactly as hard as 1 1/8oz of shot at 1200 fps - its just a difference in pellet count. ( 7/8 oz of 8's about 358 pellets / 1 oz gives you about 409 / 1 1/8 oz gives you about 460.

Personally, because you can go with heavier loads of shot - and down to even 3/4 oz of shot in a 12ga, I think a 12ga is more versatile. At my club they always have cheaper shells for 12ga ( Estate, Rio's usually ) - when they often run out of 20ga. Unless ( or until ) you get into reloading, I think a 12ga is a better way to go.

Remember picking a shotgun is about Fit - so it hits where you look / with your eye being the rear sight. Picking a gun is more about its adjustability and whether it fits than anything else. Try a few guns if you can first in both 12 and 20ga.

loveskeet · December 6, 2009, 12:23 AM

I was once told that anybody can hit them with a 12 gauge. If you use a 20 gauge or a 410 you have to be a little better shot. Your shoulder will like the 20 gauge better but starting out I would get a 12 gauge auto.

Drummer101 · December 6, 2009, 10:52 AM

My friend has a 20 that kicks like a 12 because it is so light, should have gotten the 12. And the ammo cost almost the exact same where I am.

oneounceload · December 6, 2009, 01:55 PM

Quote:

I was once told that anybody can hit them with a 12 gauge. If you use a 20 gauge or a 410 you have to be a little better shot. Your shoulder will like the 20 gauge better but starting out I would get a 12 gauge auto.

While there isn't a lot of difference between a 7/8 oz 20 and a 1oz 12, there IS a world of difference when you mention the 410 - especially for sporting.

HEAVY gun plus LIGHT load, (no matter the gauge) equals LOW recoil. add a gas action into the equation and recoil can also feel less

AZwarts · December 7, 2009, 09:02 PM

i am torn. I am going to get an 870 for shure but i dont want to let up a wingmaster lw-29 for three hundred but i really want a 12. if i get a new 12 then it will be an express

G-Dub870 · December 7, 2009, 09:09 PM

look for a 870 express super magnum if you might get into turkey hunting. if not, a 870 express magnum will do you just fine. you will also like the pump better than semi-auto because there just that much more to go wrong with gas systems and that junk.

oneounceload · December 7, 2009, 09:35 PM

Quote:

you will also like the pump better than semi-auto because there just that much more to go wrong with gas systems and that junk.

While that is your opinion and you're entitled to it, it is not factual. Gas guns are no more prone to problems from normal usage than any other type of action - things break, get worn, etc. They all suffer from that

olddrum1 · December 7, 2009, 11:19 PM

I am a small bore fanatic but in your case I believe I would spring for the 12. It will make a little more versatile sporting clays gun. If you had mentioned quail hunting it would have been on for the twenty gauge.

zippy13 · December 8, 2009, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G-Dub870

look for a 870 express super magnum if you might get into turkey hunting. if not, a 870 express magnum will do you just fine. you will also like the pump better than semi-auto because there just that much more to go wrong with gas systems and that junk.

I concur with oneounceload's opinion about auto loader reliability. The OP is asking about a gun for sporting clays. IMHO, as far as pumps go, an 870 Wingmaster would be a better choice for targets than an 870 Express magnum. Also, an overwhelming majority of comp sporting clays shooters would select an auto over a pump. Here's my two-cents worth on the subject:

Before WW II, the Winchester Model of 1912, or just Model 12, slide-action shotgun was the darling of Skeet shooters and anyone else who competed with a repeater. After the war, non-humpback auto-loaders, like the Remington 11-48 started replacing the pumps as the competitor's choice. Why?… because they shot better scores with the auto-loader -- it's that simple.

Some die-hards found the reciprocating barrel of the R11-48, and it's predecessors, distracting and held on to their trust old pump guns. Sixteen years later, in 1964, the Remington Model 1100 was introduced. With it's locked barrel and a gas system the auto-loader had come of age.

Many will remember that 1964 was the year Winchester did a major re-tooling (to reduce costs) and the Model 12 was replaced by the Model 1200. The Model 1400 auto loader was introduced, too. To many, 1964 was a watershed year for sporting firearms: the year when auto-loaders supplanted pumps as the stick guns of choice. Many have preferred an auto-loader, but their budget has dictated a pump.

For 40+ years pumps have continued as entry level guns. They are typically purchased because they are the cheapest repeaters available from the various manufacturers. I suspect, even the most vocal proponents of M-500s and R-870s would have selected an auto had it been the same price.

BigJimP · December 8, 2009, 11:13 AM

When it comes to guns - to a large extent - you get what you pay for / but most of the bigger names in the semi-auto are very good guns. You have to keep them clean and lubed / but that should be the norm anyway. The idea that today's semi-autos are not reliable / if they are well cared for - just is not true.

A semi-auto vs a pump will be an advantage in sporting clays - unless you can operate a pump gun ( with your face still on the comb / and the gun at your shoulder ). If you have to drop the pump down from your shoulder / cycle the action / and re-mount the pump gun - you'll be slower than a semi-auto and may not get a clean re-mount, etc / but it can be done, if you practice..

G-Dub870 · December 8, 2009, 06:09 PM

You could find a SPAS-12 and you can shoot semi or pump. I've never had any problems with mine Franchi is a really good brand too.

crashm1 · December 8, 2009, 06:31 PM

First I would also suggest the 12 ga and then would recommend a semi auto or O/U for sporting clays. If you were shooting trap it wouldn't matter but with SC you will need a quick follow up shot which can be done with a pump but it's way more work than makes sense. The whole idea is to have a gun that is an extension of yourself and anything that makes that second shot harder is bad whether it be poor fit or cycling an action. Make it easy to run 25 or 100 straight, it'll be more rewarding.

viking499 · December 8, 2009, 06:44 PM

A 20 requires a "better" shot. I used to hunt almost everything with my 12, but as time goes on, the 20 sees more field time than the 20. I can do just as good with it as I used to do with the 20. Less shot, but using a better shot.......

AZwarts · December 8, 2009, 08:23 PM

olddrum,
of course quail be hunted

they are in large quantity in my region and they do taste mighty fine. I was thinking that i could just shoot a 20 ga equivelent load through my 12.

AZwarts · December 8, 2009, 08:31 PM

As I progress in the sport of sporting clays, i do plan to invest in a nice semi-auto. With that said I have to start off somewhere, I am shure no one on here gort a new perazzi, beretta, benelli, etc... as there first shotgun. I just having a hard time letting this wingmaster deal pass by... but them again i really want a 12 ga.

oneounceload · December 8, 2009, 09:37 PM

Quote:

As I progress in the sport of sporting clays, i do plan to invest in a nice semi-auto. With that said I have to start off somewhere, I am shure no one on here gort a new perazzi, beretta, benelli, etc... as there first shotgun. I just having a hard time letting this wingmaster deal pass by... but them again i really want a 12 ga.

IF you are planning on shooting for years, the gun is the LEAST cost of the equation. If you figure what cheap guns costs you in cash, repairs, selling for a loss as you upgrade, and realizing that you are going to end up there anyway, why not start with something good? The resale will be there, the down-time due to repairs will not - you'll enjoy it more, and your scores might be better than otherwise for years ahead of your schedule..........

AZwarts · December 8, 2009, 10:20 PM

that is a good idea although my father is getting me this as a gift. I don't plan to sell it because I get sentimental over guns , especially a first of of one ( rifle, shotgun, pistol)

oneounceload · December 8, 2009, 10:24 PM

In this case - dad buying it - that is one thing....BUT keep my comments in ind when you start getting more guns.....it really IS better to start off with quality

AZwarts · December 8, 2009, 10:28 PM

thanks oneounxeload,
you have been a great help. What would you get... the 20 ga wingmaster lightwieght or the 12 ga 870 express ( laminate)

December 2, 2009, 09:22 PM	#1
AZwarts Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2009 Posts: 112	New to the sport and need help Hello, I am just getting into sporting clays and wanted advice on wether it makes a difference to get a .12 gauge or a .20 gauge. Currently i have been offered a Remington model 870 in .20 gauge. Any thoughts? thank you Also, most of the guys in my church get together and go hunting. Will a .20 have enough knock down for birds such as quail and pheasent Last edited by AZwarts; December 2, 2009 at 11:34 PM.

December 8, 2009, 06:31 PM	#18
crashm1 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2007 Location: Western,WI Posts: 243	First I would also suggest the 12 ga and then would recommend a semi auto or O/U for sporting clays. If you were shooting trap it wouldn't matter but with SC you will need a quick follow up shot which can be done with a pump but it's way more work than makes sense. The whole idea is to have a gun that is an extension of yourself and anything that makes that second shot harder is bad whether it be poor fit or cycling an action. Make it easy to run 25 or 100 straight, it'll be more rewarding. __________________ Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action. - George Washington 1911s and V-twin sport bikes make me happy.

December 2, 2009, 09:25 PM	#2
Homer-Sm Member Join Date: May 4, 2009 Posts: 47	20 gauge would put you at a disadvantage. To learn, and build confidence I would suggest starting with a 12 gauge. Then as you progress or look for more challenges then go with a smaller gauge. BUT then again. If you start with the 20 and get good. Then go to the 12 gauge you'll smoke everything you see.

December 2, 2009, 09:25 PM	#3
zoomie Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2006 Location: GA Posts: 1,864	I use a 20 and break them just as well as the guys with 12s. I also miss them just as cleanly.

December 2, 2009, 09:36 PM	#4
AZwarts Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2009 Posts: 112	Thanks for the input I have shot sporting clays with both calibers and I didn't feel a real difference although i am used to a .12. My friend is selling me a .20 model 870 for 250

December 2, 2009, 10:07 PM	#5
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	There aren't any targets out there that a 20 won't break and a 12 will. That being said, the better availability and wider selection of ammo choices, added with the extra weight, makes the 12 the practical choice. Weight is your friend when it comes to shooting a lot of targets. Coupled with light target loads, you'll minimize the devastating long-term effects of a lot of recoil

December 2, 2009, 11:58 PM	#6
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	Greetings, AZwarts, and welcome aboard. Oneounceload is right on the mark about there being a much greater selection of ammo with a 12-ga. If you're concerned that the 12-ga will be overkill or have a heavy recoil, it can always be loaded with lighter loads that duplicate the 20-ga. On the other hand, if you fell under-gunned with the 20-ga, it can't be up loaded to duplicate a 12ga. Trust me, my first shotgun purchase was a 20-ga, I was soon disappointed and purchased a 12. I was in the service at the time and the base trap and skeet club had reloaded ammo at a very low price, but only in 12-ga. Homer-Sm is correct about first becoming proficient with a 12-ga and then progress to a 20-ga for more challenges. I suspect, with the purchase of your friend's 20-ga, you'll eventually have a 12-ga, too. Have fun with your new gun and be safe.

December 3, 2009, 12:59 PM	#7
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Like others advised - the difference is more psychological than anything else. The typical load for a 20ga is 7/8 oz of shot / vs the more typical load for 12ga of 1 oz or 1 1/8 oz of shot. But delivering 7/8 oz of shot at 1200 fps downrange / hits exactly as hard as 1 1/8oz of shot at 1200 fps - its just a difference in pellet count. ( 7/8 oz of 8's about 358 pellets / 1 oz gives you about 409 / 1 1/8 oz gives you about 460. Personally, because you can go with heavier loads of shot - and down to even 3/4 oz of shot in a 12ga, I think a 12ga is more versatile. At my club they always have cheaper shells for 12ga ( Estate, Rio's usually ) - when they often run out of 20ga. Unless ( or until ) you get into reloading, I think a 12ga is a better way to go. Remember picking a shotgun is about Fit - so it hits where you look / with your eye being the rear sight. Picking a gun is more about its adjustability and whether it fits than anything else. Try a few guns if you can first in both 12 and 20ga.

December 6, 2009, 12:23 AM	#8
loveskeet Junior Member Join Date: December 5, 2009 Posts: 5	I was once told that anybody can hit them with a 12 gauge. If you use a 20 gauge or a 410 you have to be a little better shot. Your shoulder will like the 20 gauge better but starting out I would get a 12 gauge auto.

December 6, 2009, 10:52 AM	#9
Drummer101 Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2009 Location: DFW Posts: 943	My friend has a 20 that kicks like a 12 because it is so light, should have gotten the 12. And the ammo cost almost the exact same where I am.

December 7, 2009, 09:02 PM	#11
AZwarts Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2009 Posts: 112	i am torn. I am going to get an 870 for shure but i dont want to let up a wingmaster lw-29 for three hundred but i really want a 12. if i get a new 12 then it will be an express

December 7, 2009, 09:09 PM	#12
G-Dub870 Member Join Date: February 9, 2009 Location: woodward oklahoma Posts: 32	look for a 870 express super magnum if you might get into turkey hunting. if not, a 870 express magnum will do you just fine. you will also like the pump better than semi-auto because there just that much more to go wrong with gas systems and that junk.

December 7, 2009, 11:19 PM	#14
olddrum1 Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2008 Location: Mid Missouri Posts: 807	I am a small bore fanatic but in your case I believe I would spring for the 12. It will make a little more versatile sporting clays gun. If you had mentioned quail hunting it would have been on for the twenty gauge.

December 8, 2009, 11:13 AM	#16
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	When it comes to guns - to a large extent - you get what you pay for / but most of the bigger names in the semi-auto are very good guns. You have to keep them clean and lubed / but that should be the norm anyway. The idea that today's semi-autos are not reliable / if they are well cared for - just is not true. A semi-auto vs a pump will be an advantage in sporting clays - unless you can operate a pump gun ( with your face still on the comb / and the gun at your shoulder ). If you have to drop the pump down from your shoulder / cycle the action / and re-mount the pump gun - you'll be slower than a semi-auto and may not get a clean re-mount, etc / but it can be done, if you practice..

December 8, 2009, 06:09 PM	#17
G-Dub870 Member Join Date: February 9, 2009 Location: woodward oklahoma Posts: 32	You could find a SPAS-12 and you can shoot semi or pump. I've never had any problems with mine Franchi is a really good brand too.

December 8, 2009, 06:44 PM	#19
viking499 Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 2008 Posts: 206	A 20 requires a "better" shot. I used to hunt almost everything with my 12, but as time goes on, the 20 sees more field time than the 20. I can do just as good with it as I used to do with the 20. Less shot, but using a better shot.......

December 8, 2009, 08:23 PM	#20
AZwarts Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2009 Posts: 112	olddrum, of course quail be hunted they are in large quantity in my region and they do taste mighty fine. I was thinking that i could just shoot a 20 ga equivelent load through my 12.

December 8, 2009, 08:31 PM	#21
AZwarts Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2009 Posts: 112	As I progress in the sport of sporting clays, i do plan to invest in a nice semi-auto. With that said I have to start off somewhere, I am shure no one on here gort a new perazzi, beretta, benelli, etc... as there first shotgun. I just having a hard time letting this wingmaster deal pass by... but them again i really want a 12 ga.

December 8, 2009, 10:20 PM	#23
AZwarts Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2009 Posts: 112	that is a good idea although my father is getting me this as a gift. I don't plan to sell it because I get sentimental over guns , especially a first of of one ( rifle, shotgun, pistol)

December 8, 2009, 10:24 PM	#24
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	In this case - dad buying it - that is one thing....BUT keep my comments in ind when you start getting more guns.....it really IS better to start off with quality

December 8, 2009, 10:28 PM	#25
AZwarts Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2009 Posts: 112	thanks oneounxeload, you have been a great help. What would you get... the 20 ga wingmaster lightwieght or the 12 ga 870 express ( laminate)