Powder substitutes

Wendyj · June 29, 2015, 02:15 PM

I just ordered some 80 grain Barnes Tsx in 243 calling on Barnes for h4350

Also ordered Barnes 180 TSX in 308 win. Calling for h4895.

Need substitute loads with comparable powder. I have Varget, Benchmark, IMR 4064 3031 and 4831. Any of the powders I have come close to the burn rates Barnes lists?

T. O'Heir · June 29, 2015, 02:27 PM

IMR powders of either 'H' number are very close to the same thing, but are not interchangeable.
Hodgdon's burn rate chart is here. Likely the same as the one you have. http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Burn%20Ra...02014-2015.pdf
IMR4064 would do nicely in the .308. Varget is a good .308 powder too. Been using IMR4350 for 90 and 105 grain bullets for eons out of my .243.

**Unclenick** · June 29, 2015, 03:32 PM

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

You won't get grain-for-grain substitution. But the loads that call for IMR4895 will have some equivalent load you can put together with IMR4064. IMR4064 is bulkier, so maximum loads may be compressed. Hodgdon shows loads for a 180 grain Speer Soft Point. QuickLOAD suggests that with the harder, longer TSX bullet, you will need to drop those loads 3 grains to get similar pressure.

IMR4831 will function in the same cartridge that want's 4350. But, again, not a grain for grain sub. Hodgdon has data for an 85 grain TSX that will be safe with an 80 grain TTSX (they don't seem to make an 80 grain TSX).

Jimro · June 29, 2015, 04:02 PM

Straight from the web sites of Hodgdon...

IMR 4064 data for 85gr TSX in 243 Win, 33.8 gr starting, 36.0 max. 2964 starting, 3112 fps max.

Barnes lists 130gr TSX and 168gr TSX BT loads for Varget. Using that I can make an educated guess about the 180 TSX BT

130/52.0= 2.5
168/45.5= 3.6
38 gr difference between the two bullets gives a 1.1 gr bullet per gr powder difference. So adding another 12 gr (one third roughly of 38gr) of bullet should be adding one third of 1.1 to 3.6, call it 4.1 to 180/x=4.0, so x=43.9gr estimated max charge. You can do the same math to estimate a starting charge.

Hope this is helpful

Jimro

603Country · June 29, 2015, 04:16 PM

I get great results in the grandson's 308 with IMR3031. And IMR4064 is always a good choice. And if 4064 is good, so should Varget be. I'd use the 3031.

Wendyj · June 29, 2015, 05:25 PM

Jimro, I went to Hodgdon website and my magazine manual. I see Sierra and Hornady as only bullets listed. Would you send a link of what you showed with TSX bullet. I'm evidently on wrong web site.
I went to Hodgdon reloading. Picked rifle. Chose 243. Chose IMR chose 80 gr. don't see it. Not doubting anyone. Looks like I'm surfing wrong site.

Jimro · June 29, 2015, 05:45 PM

Wendyj,

You didn't do anything wrong. You have to choose 85gr, IMR, and IMR4064, it's the next bullet higher in mass of similar construction. The 80gr data is all Sierra/Hornady for Hodgdon that I can find for the powders you have.

The Varget data for 308 is available here so you can check my math: http://www.barnesbullets.com/files/2.../308WinWeb.pdf

Jimro

Wendyj · June 29, 2015, 05:51 PM

Thank you Jimro. Thought I was losing my mind. Lol. May have. After seeing that high dollar custom gun blow back out of bullet and make bolt into mush with two nuts beside me at the range this past weekend I'm in no hurry to get hurt.

mikld · June 30, 2015, 01:11 PM

I understand Barns load info. is good to have/important, but what's wrong with finding a load in your reloading manual? Perhaps it won't be exact replica of the Barns loads, but you'll get a good, safe starting point with the powders you mention. K.I.S.S....

Wendyj · June 30, 2015, 03:22 PM

I've been using bullet manufacturer recipes when possible. I used nothing but Hodgdon site when I started. Sometimes they had me under lowest load and over max on others. I started out loading a lot at lowest and working up .3 to.5 tenths of a grain to mid range loads. Running close to max now since finding the 308 like lowest or highest. Pretty much nothing in between. Figure 243 is going to like close to Max speeds also. Just my opinion but I'm far from expert.

June 29, 2015, 02:15 PM	#1
Wendyj Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2015 Location: North Georgia Posts: 1,372	Powder substitutes I just ordered some 80 grain Barnes Tsx in 243 calling on Barnes for h4350 Also ordered Barnes 180 TSX in 308 win. Calling for h4895. Need substitute loads with comparable powder. I have Varget, Benchmark, IMR 4064 3031 and 4831. Any of the powders I have come close to the burn rates Barnes lists? __________________ God is NOT dead!!!!

June 29, 2015, 02:27 PM	#2
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	IMR powders of either 'H' number are very close to the same thing, but are not interchangeable. Hodgdon's burn rate chart is here. Likely the same as the one you have. http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Burn%20Ra...02014-2015.pdf IMR4064 would do nicely in the .308. Varget is a good .308 powder too. Been using IMR4350 for 90 and 105 grain bullets for eons out of my .243. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

June 29, 2015, 03:32 PM	#3
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information. You won't get grain-for-grain substitution. But the loads that call for IMR4895 will have some equivalent load you can put together with IMR4064. IMR4064 is bulkier, so maximum loads may be compressed. Hodgdon shows loads for a 180 grain Speer Soft Point. QuickLOAD suggests that with the harder, longer TSX bullet, you will need to drop those loads 3 grains to get similar pressure. IMR4831 will function in the same cartridge that want's 4350. But, again, not a grain for grain sub. Hodgdon has data for an 85 grain TSX that will be safe with an 80 grain TTSX (they don't seem to make an 80 grain TSX). __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

June 29, 2015, 04:02 PM	#4
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	Straight from the web sites of Hodgdon... IMR 4064 data for 85gr TSX in 243 Win, 33.8 gr starting, 36.0 max. 2964 starting, 3112 fps max. Barnes lists 130gr TSX and 168gr TSX BT loads for Varget. Using that I can make an educated guess about the 180 TSX BT 130/52.0= 2.5 168/45.5= 3.6 38 gr difference between the two bullets gives a 1.1 gr bullet per gr powder difference. So adding another 12 gr (one third roughly of 38gr) of bullet should be adding one third of 1.1 to 3.6, call it 4.1 to 180/x=4.0, so x=43.9gr estimated max charge. You can do the same math to estimate a starting charge. Hope this is helpful Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one. Last edited by Jimro; June 29, 2015 at 04:22 PM. Reason: correcting for powder selection available

June 29, 2015, 05:25 PM	#6
Wendyj Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2015 Location: North Georgia Posts: 1,372	Jimro, I went to Hodgdon website and my magazine manual. I see Sierra and Hornady as only bullets listed. Would you send a link of what you showed with TSX bullet. I'm evidently on wrong web site. I went to Hodgdon reloading. Picked rifle. Chose 243. Chose IMR chose 80 gr. don't see it. Not doubting anyone. Looks like I'm surfing wrong site. __________________ God is NOT dead!!!!

June 29, 2015, 04:16 PM	#5
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	I get great results in the grandson's 308 with IMR3031. And IMR4064 is always a good choice. And if 4064 is good, so should Varget be. I'd use the 3031.

June 29, 2015, 05:45 PM	#7
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	Wendyj, You didn't do anything wrong. You have to choose 85gr, IMR, and IMR4064, it's the next bullet higher in mass of similar construction. The 80gr data is all Sierra/Hornady for Hodgdon that I can find for the powders you have. The Varget data for 308 is available here so you can check my math: http://www.barnesbullets.com/files/2.../308WinWeb.pdf Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

June 29, 2015, 05:51 PM	#8
Wendyj Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2015 Location: North Georgia Posts: 1,372	Thank you Jimro. Thought I was losing my mind. Lol. May have. After seeing that high dollar custom gun blow back out of bullet and make bolt into mush with two nuts beside me at the range this past weekend I'm in no hurry to get hurt. __________________ God is NOT dead!!!!

June 30, 2015, 01:11 PM	#9
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	I understand Barns load info. is good to have/important, but what's wrong with finding a load in your reloading manual? Perhaps it won't be exact replica of the Barns loads, but you'll get a good, safe starting point with the powders you mention. K.I.S.S.... __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

June 30, 2015, 03:22 PM	#10
Wendyj Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2015 Location: North Georgia Posts: 1,372	I've been using bullet manufacturer recipes when possible. I used nothing but Hodgdon site when I started. Sometimes they had me under lowest load and over max on others. I started out loading a lot at lowest and working up .3 to.5 tenths of a grain to mid range loads. Running close to max now since finding the 308 like lowest or highest. Pretty much nothing in between. Figure 243 is going to like close to Max speeds also. Just my opinion but I'm far from expert. __________________ God is NOT dead!!!!