What's up with Federal Pistol Primers?

Edward429451 · November 12, 2011, 02:21 AM

What in the heck happened to Federal primers? It's been a little while since I bought more pistol primers, so the new blue packaging instead of red wasn't a huge surprise. They were ID'd as Fed 150 LP so I bought them.

As soon as I opened a box I felt the uh-oh feeling. I could see yellow priming dust everywhere it shouldn't be. Closer inspection revealed the priming pellets were all differing sizes. Some were chipped and broken under the anvil and some were just plain different levels of compound in the primer. Being range ammo that I was loading and the thought that they all can't be like that, I continued to use them. Well, box after box revealed the same thing.

These are not the red box 150 LP that I know and depend on. What gives? They farming it out to a 3rd world country now or something? Is this a fluke or is anyone else getting crappy primers from Federal? (blue box Fed 150 LP "Champion")

BDS-THR · November 12, 2011, 02:56 AM

I would take some pictures and email/call Federal customer service.

Uncle Buck · November 12, 2011, 07:59 AM

I have about 2,000 federal primers left. I quit buying them because of the way they are packaged. (Too much packaging)

Never seen the situation/condition you are referring to. Would be interested in seeing a picture and knowing how they worked.

old roper · November 12, 2011, 09:18 AM

If you got them local I take them back they are package 5 (1000) and if you got one (1000) there should be 4 other boxes. You might call Federal with the run #and the blue boxes been out for some time just before the shortage.

buck460XVR · November 12, 2011, 09:58 AM

How do they work? I too don't like all the space their newer and bigger packaging takes up on the shelves in my reloading room.....but if that's all there is at my LGS I don't have a problem with using them, because they still are as reliable as ever. Now if they had a unacceptable failure rate, I'd dump 'em like bad liver regardless of how they are packaged.

Smokey Joe · November 13, 2011, 09:49 PM

Uncle Buck, and Buck 460, I second your motions! Why Federal thinks that its customers have unlimited shelf space on which to store its products is beyond me, but until they figure it out and return to a reasonable size package, I too will avoid buying Fed primers.

amamnn · November 15, 2011, 07:40 PM

There was a time when all primers were packaged that way for safety. I for one applaud Federal for keeping the faith, since the handloading newbies of today seem to be impervious to instructions as to how to store primers and the dangers of static electricity. If a couple of tenths of an inch in primer spacing in the packaging get your goat--it may be a sign thatyou ARE a goat

wncchester · November 15, 2011, 08:31 PM

I understand why Fed uses the trays they package their primers in. I like it and saving tiny amounts of space on my primer shelf would be meaningless.

Smokey Joe · November 16, 2011, 09:57 AM

I had an interesting conversation with a Federal rep about their primers and Federal's useless excessive packaging. It went about like this:

Me: Why does Federal alone among all primer manufacturers put up their primers in such bulky packaging? It wastes space, wastes packaging material, and I just don't see the need. Frankly, I won't be buying any Federal primers unless you can explain why it's necessary to waste so much storage space, for me, for retailers, and by the way, in your own warehouse.

Federal rep: Well, Federal's primers are so much stronger, more explosive, than all the others that we have to package them in a way that separates each primer from all the others, for safety.

Me: All the primer makers separate each primer from all the others. But Federal is using a much larger space between each primer, and therefore the extra packaging. If Federal primers are so much stronger than the other makes, then won't I have to change the recipe when I reload using Federal primers?

Federal rep: No, you use the same recipe for reloading, using Federal primers as you'd use for any other primer. They work just the same.

Me: If the Federal primers work just the same as all the others, then how can they be stronger than all the others? And if they aren't really stronger than all the others, why does Federal alone use the bulkier packaging?

Federal rep: MMMMMMhmmmmmm... (At which point he spotted a likelier prospect and walked away.)

Come to your own conclusions. And BTW, that "meaningless" space does cost retailers, truckers, wholesalers, and warehouses, more money. Guess who pays that extra. Ditto for the extra material in the larger packages.

And while I'm at it, how many spontaneous primer explosions have you ever heard of, caused by the primers being too close to each other in the factory containers?...I thought so.

Edward429451 · November 16, 2011, 10:17 AM

Well there was all those spontaneous primer explosions when I was a kid. I remember a lot of them. Yeah, too close to the package.

I have about half of those funky primers loaded up. I hope they work.

William T. Watts · November 16, 2011, 01:26 PM

There is a heavy red coating on the anvil side of the primer that inhibits the primer compound flash that has resulted in erratic ignition (I'm assuming this is the problem). I have a box of 1000 that has 30-40% of the primers that have a heavier than normal coating, I'm puzzled why something like this left the factory. What purpose does this coating serve? William

**Unclenick** · November 16, 2011, 05:00 PM

William,

That's a moisture seal, I'm pretty sure. If it's compounded correctly it shouldn't interfere, but I can't say I've proved that experimentally. It may also prevent crumbling. The OP is about yellow dust all over, making it sound like that coating was missing.

I'll have to go look at my old and new stocks to see what's changed. Unless my memory is playing a trick on me (always possible), it seems to me that at one point that red lacquer was (thickly) on Federal match large rifle primers but not on their match large pistol primers. It seems to me there was green lacquer at some point. I'm not sure what's current. I've been buying and trying a lot of other rifle primers in recent years and haven't got any recent lots of Federal. 2005 maybe about as recently as I've purchased any.

There was a good article on primers up for a long time on the Shooting Times web site, but they took it down when they redid the site. It was by a CCI employee who said primers get changed by manufacturers far more frequently than people realize—more often that powder formulations change—and no announcement to the public is ever made. That's why you work loads back up with each new lot number.

Smokey,

If anything, Federal standard (non-magnum) primers tend to be on the mild side. That rep didn't know the issue. It isn't strength but sensitivity. It's the reason Lee recommends against Federal primers in their Autoprime tool: if one goes off it is more likely to cause sympathetic ignition of others, according to Lee. If it occurs, that creates an explosion of multiple primers, which can be dangerous to your hand (not to mention your eyes), with shattered plastic flying around. But the strength of the individual primers isn't the basis for concern. My suspicion is the packaging is actually to placate their liability insurance company's attorneys.

The footprint of the big packaging has always been used by Federal, but the thickness of the trays has been increased. Those thick trays were in Red before Blue. The first thick ones appeared around 1990, IIRC. Before that they were thinner, I know, because I used to save them to use as counting trays for pellets in airgun matches, and I was shooting those mostly in the 80's.

Nick

William T. Watts · November 16, 2011, 05:54 PM

Unclenick your post gave another clue about erratic ignition (didn't realize Federal Standard LR primers were mild), I usually don't need a reason to visit our G & F shooting range. I'll try loading a couple of my pet loads with the heavily lacquered primers and check group size next time I have some free time!! Thanks for the insight! William

lll Otto lll · November 16, 2011, 06:53 PM

Quote:

If the Federal primers work just the same as all the others, then how can they be stronger than all the others? And if they aren't really stronger than all the others, why does Federal alone use the bulkier packaging?

Stronger isn't the word, Federals are more sensitive than other brands making them more prone to chain detonations. That's why they have bulkier packaging.
I inquired about this with Federal a couple of years back and they said the packaging was a DOT requirement.

Blount purchased Federal Cartridge in 1997 and sold it to ATK in 2001.

old roper · November 16, 2011, 09:45 PM

The Fed primers package 1000 in the Red box,red/white,off red and the blue box are all the same size they just changed colors and they keep the same tray measurements. The primer trays are tapered and they kept the same thickness in the above ones I mention as I still have those mentioned.

I also have some BR 205 when they were package like Rem.

Someone did a flash test on primers that's been on lot of site and all the internet experts agree with that test. I use lot of Fed primers 210 and 210M in my semi custom rifles been good in my rifles. I have no pressure testing equipment but I did run a primer test in my rifles.
Test rifle 270WSM, Lawton barrel
Hodgdon data max load 58.5gr/IMR4350 @2934fps with 150gr Hornady SP

150gr Sierra 58gr/IMR-4350 3050fps WLR primer
3047fps Rem 9.5 primer
3044fps Fed 210 primer
3036fps CCI-200 primer
3043fps WLRM primer
3045fps Rem 9.5M primer
3040fps Fed 215M primer

280AI Lilja barrel
Nolser manual max load 61.5gr/IMR-7828 160gr Accubond @ 3043fos

160gr Accubond 60.gr/IMR7828 3058fps Fed 210M primer
3094fps Fed 215M primer

160gr Accubond 56gr/R17 3046fps Fed 210M primer
3091fps Fed 215M primer

I understand some don't like Fed primers but like I said my rifles they been pretty good.

November 12, 2011, 02:21 AM	#1
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	What's up with Federal Pistol Primers? What in the heck happened to Federal primers? It's been a little while since I bought more pistol primers, so the new blue packaging instead of red wasn't a huge surprise. They were ID'd as Fed 150 LP so I bought them. As soon as I opened a box I felt the uh-oh feeling. I could see yellow priming dust everywhere it shouldn't be. Closer inspection revealed the priming pellets were all differing sizes. Some were chipped and broken under the anvil and some were just plain different levels of compound in the primer. Being range ammo that I was loading and the thought that they all can't be like that, I continued to use them. Well, box after box revealed the same thing. These are not the red box 150 LP that I know and depend on. What gives? They farming it out to a 3rd world country now or something? Is this a fluke or is anyone else getting crappy primers from Federal? (blue box Fed 150 LP "Champion")

November 12, 2011, 07:59 AM	#3
Uncle Buck Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2009 Location: West Central Missouri Posts: 2,592	I have about 2,000 federal primers left. I quit buying them because of the way they are packaged. (Too much packaging) Never seen the situation/condition you are referring to. Would be interested in seeing a picture and knowing how they worked. __________________ Inside Every Bright Idea Is The 50% Probability Of A Disaster Waiting To Happen.

November 13, 2011, 09:49 PM	#6
Smokey Joe Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2001 Location: State of Confusion Posts: 2,106	Hear, hear!! Uncle Buck, and Buck 460, I second your motions! Why Federal thinks that its customers have unlimited shelf space on which to store its products is beyond me, but until they figure it out and return to a reasonable size package, I too will avoid buying Fed primers. __________________ God Bless America --Smokey Joe

November 15, 2011, 07:40 PM	#7
amamnn Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2006 Location: WA, the left armpit of the USA Posts: 1,323	There was a time when all primers were packaged that way for safety. I for one applaud Federal for keeping the faith, since the handloading newbies of today seem to be impervious to instructions as to how to store primers and the dangers of static electricity. If a couple of tenths of an inch in primer spacing in the packaging get your goat--it may be a sign thatyou ARE a goat __________________ "If the enemy is in range, so are you." - Infantry Journal

November 16, 2011, 09:57 AM	#9
Smokey Joe Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2001 Location: State of Confusion Posts: 2,106	Federal primers... I had an interesting conversation with a Federal rep about their primers and Federal's useless excessive packaging. It went about like this: Me: Why does Federal alone among all primer manufacturers put up their primers in such bulky packaging? It wastes space, wastes packaging material, and I just don't see the need. Frankly, I won't be buying any Federal primers unless you can explain why it's necessary to waste so much storage space, for me, for retailers, and by the way, in your own warehouse. Federal rep: Well, Federal's primers are so much stronger, more explosive, than all the others that we have to package them in a way that separates each primer from all the others, for safety. Me: All the primer makers separate each primer from all the others. But Federal is using a much larger space between each primer, and therefore the extra packaging. If Federal primers are so much stronger than the other makes, then won't I have to change the recipe when I reload using Federal primers? Federal rep: No, you use the same recipe for reloading, using Federal primers as you'd use for any other primer. They work just the same. Me: If the Federal primers work just the same as all the others, then how can they be stronger than all the others? And if they aren't really stronger than all the others, why does Federal alone use the bulkier packaging? Federal rep: MMMMMMhmmmmmm... (At which point he spotted a likelier prospect and walked away.) Come to your own conclusions. And BTW, that "meaningless" space does cost retailers, truckers, wholesalers, and warehouses, more money. Guess who pays that extra. Ditto for the extra material in the larger packages. And while I'm at it, how many spontaneous primer explosions have you ever heard of, caused by the primers being too close to each other in the factory containers?...I thought so. __________________ God Bless America --Smokey Joe Last edited by Smokey Joe; November 16, 2011 at 10:09 AM. Reason: Clumsy wording.

November 12, 2011, 02:56 AM	#2
BDS-THR Senior Member Join Date: June 12, 2010 Posts: 479	I would take some pictures and email/call Federal customer service.

November 12, 2011, 09:18 AM	#4
old roper Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2007 Posts: 2,155	If you got them local I take them back they are package 5 (1000) and if you got one (1000) there should be 4 other boxes. You might call Federal with the run #and the blue boxes been out for some time just before the shortage.

November 12, 2011, 09:58 AM	#5
buck460XVR Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2006 Posts: 4,342	How do they work? I too don't like all the space their newer and bigger packaging takes up on the shelves in my reloading room.....but if that's all there is at my LGS I don't have a problem with using them, because they still are as reliable as ever. Now if they had a unacceptable failure rate, I'd dump 'em like bad liver regardless of how they are packaged.

November 15, 2011, 08:31 PM	#8
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	I understand why Fed uses the trays they package their primers in. I like it and saving tiny amounts of space on my primer shelf would be meaningless.

November 16, 2011, 10:17 AM	#10
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Well there was all those spontaneous primer explosions when I was a kid. I remember a lot of them. Yeah, too close to the package. I have about half of those funky primers loaded up. I hope they work.

November 16, 2011, 01:26 PM	#11
William T. Watts Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2010 Location: Central Arkansas Posts: 1,074	What's up with Federal Standard LR Primers There is a heavy red coating on the anvil side of the primer that inhibits the primer compound flash that has resulted in erratic ignition (I'm assuming this is the problem). I have a box of 1000 that has 30-40% of the primers that have a heavier than normal coating, I'm puzzled why something like this left the factory. What purpose does this coating serve? William

November 16, 2011, 05:00 PM	#12
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	William, That's a moisture seal, I'm pretty sure. If it's compounded correctly it shouldn't interfere, but I can't say I've proved that experimentally. It may also prevent crumbling. The OP is about yellow dust all over, making it sound like that coating was missing. I'll have to go look at my old and new stocks to see what's changed. Unless my memory is playing a trick on me (always possible), it seems to me that at one point that red lacquer was (thickly) on Federal match large rifle primers but not on their match large pistol primers. It seems to me there was green lacquer at some point. I'm not sure what's current. I've been buying and trying a lot of other rifle primers in recent years and haven't got any recent lots of Federal. 2005 maybe about as recently as I've purchased any. There was a good article on primers up for a long time on the Shooting Times web site, but they took it down when they redid the site. It was by a CCI employee who said primers get changed by manufacturers far more frequently than people realize—more often that powder formulations change—and no announcement to the public is ever made. That's why you work loads back up with each new lot number. Smokey, If anything, Federal standard (non-magnum) primers tend to be on the mild side. That rep didn't know the issue. It isn't strength but sensitivity. It's the reason Lee recommends against Federal primers in their Autoprime tool: if one goes off it is more likely to cause sympathetic ignition of others, according to Lee. If it occurs, that creates an explosion of multiple primers, which can be dangerous to your hand (not to mention your eyes), with shattered plastic flying around. But the strength of the individual primers isn't the basis for concern. My suspicion is the packaging is actually to placate their liability insurance company's attorneys. The footprint of the big packaging has always been used by Federal, but the thickness of the trays has been increased. Those thick trays were in Red before Blue. The first thick ones appeared around 1990, IIRC. Before that they were thinner, I know, because I used to save them to use as counting trays for pellets in airgun matches, and I was shooting those mostly in the 80's. Nick __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; November 18, 2011 at 10:04 PM.

November 16, 2011, 05:54 PM	#13
William T. Watts Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2010 Location: Central Arkansas Posts: 1,074	Unclenick your post gave another clue about erratic ignition (didn't realize Federal Standard LR primers were mild), I usually don't need a reason to visit our G & F shooting range. I'll try loading a couple of my pet loads with the heavily lacquered primers and check group size next time I have some free time!! Thanks for the insight! William

November 16, 2011, 09:45 PM	#15
old roper Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2007 Posts: 2,155	The Fed primers package 1000 in the Red box,red/white,off red and the blue box are all the same size they just changed colors and they keep the same tray measurements. The primer trays are tapered and they kept the same thickness in the above ones I mention as I still have those mentioned. I also have some BR 205 when they were package like Rem. Someone did a flash test on primers that's been on lot of site and all the internet experts agree with that test. I use lot of Fed primers 210 and 210M in my semi custom rifles been good in my rifles. I have no pressure testing equipment but I did run a primer test in my rifles. Test rifle 270WSM, Lawton barrel Hodgdon data max load 58.5gr/IMR4350 @2934fps with 150gr Hornady SP 150gr Sierra 58gr/IMR-4350 3050fps WLR primer 3047fps Rem 9.5 primer 3044fps Fed 210 primer 3036fps CCI-200 primer 3043fps WLRM primer 3045fps Rem 9.5M primer 3040fps Fed 215M primer 280AI Lilja barrel Nolser manual max load 61.5gr/IMR-7828 160gr Accubond @ 3043fos 160gr Accubond 60.gr/IMR7828 3058fps Fed 210M primer 3094fps Fed 215M primer 160gr Accubond 56gr/R17 3046fps Fed 210M primer 3091fps Fed 215M primer I understand some don't like Fed primers but like I said my rifles they been pretty good.