Weapons Retention- Least Emphasized, Most Important

[JoeBlackSpade]

In hopes of being a useful, and contributing member of this forum, I spent a little time examining what I could offer to the rest of you- that does not already get enough discussion.

If you are a regular reader of this forum you will know that legally carrying a firearm can save your life, and the lives of your loved ones, provided you can get quality training and invest time practicing . Concealed carry laws have reduced murder and crime rates in the states that have enacted them. According to a comprehensive study which reviewed crime statistics in every county in the United States from 1977 to 1992, states which passed concealed carry laws reduced their rate of murder by 8.5%, rape by 5%, aggravated assault by 7% and robbery by 3%.


Around my friends and family, I'm a vocal and honest advocate of our rights to bear firearms. What does worry me, however, is the fact that there seems to be very little training available to the general public, concerning WEAPONS RETENTION. Every year, a small number of trained law enforcement officers are killed with their own firearms. While this is rare when compared to the number of armed confrontations that law enforcement officers engage in, it should still serve as a wake up call for the rest of the "carrying" community, since Law Enforcement receives training on how to avoid being disarmed by criminals.

Having said that, I thought we could discuss various ways to avoid being disarmed, by dissecting the circumstances under which individuals could lose control of their firearms in a violent encounter. What starts off as your last resort and best defense could end up being your worst nightmare, if you don't know how to retain your weapon in a close-quarters conflict. No matter how great your marksmanship skills are, no matter how many thousands of rounds downrange, your weapon can't help you if you don't know how to keep it in your hands, and out of the hands of your attacker. By giving thought to a few basic principles, you can increase your chances of surviving an armed confrontation, and prevent your name from being added to a statistics roster.

Below, I'll discuss a few of the weapons retention techniques that I've taught to Marines, soldiers and sailors in the past, and I look forward to others describing the techniques they have learned as well.

[JoeBlackSpade]

First the conditions necessary for someone to take your weapon:

1.) Range.

If someone is out of arms reach, there is no way they can get your weapon off of your body. By understanding- and being aware of range, you can reduce your chances of having your weapon siezed by an attacker.

2.) Proper securing/fastening of your weapon.

If your weapon is poorly holstered- or not holstered at all, you have layed the groundwork for an opponent to sieze your weapon.

3.) Distraction/ lack of alertness

Your mind is the most critical link in the chain, when it comes to situational awareness. If you are distracted, or if you are lost in thought, you won't be aware of the signs that could've given you ample warning.



When it comes to range, we are talking about physical distances between your firearm and others. Obviously, someone 10 meters away can't take your weapon. When it comes to defensive situations, distance is your best friend. Keep as much buffer space between you and a potential attacker as possible. Before you can be disarmed, the distance between you and the attacker must be closed.

If you are being assaulted, you should immediately switch gears and begin moving your body, ideally, in a direction perpendicular from your attacker. We know the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. If you stand still, or try to stumble backwards, you allow your attacker to advance in a straight line. Moving backwards, you could lose your footing, and you will certainly never be able to back-peddle as fast as an attacker, who is running forwards. By side-stepping quickly to your STRONG SIDE (the side your weapon is holstered on), you force the attacker to slow down a little, and force him to change direction if he is to follow you. As you move, he is forced to run in a curve, thus increasing the distance he must cover to get to you. Also, moving in the direction of your strong side allows you to place your WEAK SIDE ARM out, between you and your attacker. Of course, in doing so, your torso will be placed between your firearm and the attacker.

Range is critical in avoiding being disarmed. Be aware who is around you, when carrying a firearm, and remember that a determined attacker can close a 7 meter (21 feet) distance in about a second and a half. Know how far away they are, and avoid being immersed in large, unruly crowds if possible. In the event that an attacker charges you, sidestep as they close the distance. Move to your strong side. Do not cross your legs as you sidestep, but rather "hop", feet together, feet apart, repeatedly. Lower your body instinctively. As the attacker gets into grabbing range, strike him with an open-palmed thrust, pushing him back and away. Keep your torso between your firearm and the attacker.

In all cases, no matter how much "range" you keep between you and an attacker, nothing creates a better opportunity for you to be shot by your own weapon than an unsecured, or poorly fastened holster. It doesn't matter how hypervigilant you are, if you get into a scuffle with an attacker, and *POP*, your pistol falls off your waist, and lands in front of your attacker. In such a case, you've disarmed yourself. Inspect your holster. Is it a snap-down button, or is it Velcro? Is it a friction -style holster, without a thumbsnap of any kind, or perhaps a "POP-DOWN" Bianchi holster, with a little thumb-loop that has to be pulled down to release a flap? If it is button down, are the buttons in good shape? What condition are the seams? Pay close attention to the belt loops, if you wear your holster on your belt.

Besides inspecting your holster for signs of possible failure, you should also "train to retain". You should never, ever train with your weapon at the range, leaving your holster unbuttoned, even if your goal is marksmanship skill. ALWAYS train with- and draw from- your holster completely fastened. The repetition involved with unsnapping it every time you want to shoot will teach you muscle memory, something that can ONLY be done with repetition. Your muscle memory will be the only thing that won't let you down in a conflict (your emotions might let you down, your vision may tunnel and blur, and your hearing may fail, but reflex never will). By training with your weapon secure, you'll be able to draw- FROM A SECURE HOLSTER- in time of stress.

Last on the above list, but certainly not least is alertness. Everyone knows that situational awareness is important, but when it comes to retention of a firearm, there are specific things you should watch for:

What is your current location? What is the position of your firearm in relation to other people? Are you sitting on a chair with your back to others? Is the handle-grip of your firearm exposed or visible?

Practice using your peripheral vision. While your primary line of vision is straight ahead, with a little practice, you can train your eyes to scan frequently, and can even teach your brain not to "ignore" everything to your left and right. Pay attention to shadows and light. Sometimes a flash of light and dark will be the only warning you will ever get as someone advances. Know where the source of light is, and how it will affect you. Be sure that your attacker has already considered this, and is likely using shadow to his advantage. Where visibility is limited, keep darkness on your "WEAK SIDE" (non-drawing hand). Use all of your senses, particularly your hearing. Never tune out of your current situation, until you are in a safe environment.

These basics, if regularly employed will make you a hard target for any thug looking to get his hands on your firearm.

[JoeBlackSpade]

Techniques:

I'm going to discuss basic techniques, and then the application can be interpreted on an individual basis.


Understand that in order for your weapon to be taken from you, it must generally SLIDE UP, or OUT of its holster. As discussed above, your holster should be firmly attached to your body. When you imagine the movement required, you understand that some force must move it in that direction. In purely mechanical terms, then, positioning some part of your body in front of that movement can keep the weapon from being removed from the holster.


For those of you who wear your holster on your waist:

1.) Stand naturally upright, with your holster on your waist as you normally would. Your feet will probably be about shoulder width apart.

2.) Have a training buddy stand facing you at arms length in the same manner.

3.) As a buddy reaches for your weapon, his hand will land on the grip of your holstered weapon. Quickly place your drawing hand on top of his; mirror his moves to match his speed. Do NOT REMOVE YOUR HAND FROM ITS POSITION ON TOP OF HIS HAND! Ideally, you want to "trap" his grasping hand on top of the holstered weapon, and clamp down hard on it with your drawing hand.

4.) In one motion, crouch slightly and BEND AT THE WASTE TOWARDS YOUR WEAPON, SO THAT YOUR TORSO is blocking the weapon from being removed. At this point, your weapon cannot be unholstered.

5.) Use your free hand to deliver a palm-heel (open handed) strike to the chin of your attacker, keeping your strong hand where it should be- on TOP of your attackers grasping hand- which is on top of the still-holstered weapon.

6.) After delivering one, or several palm-heel strikes to your opponent, take your FREE HAND, and shoot it across to your attacker's grasping hand. Firmly grasp his wrist.

7.) Break his grasp on the firearm in a wrenching motion, twisting and pulling his hand away with both of your hands, while rotating your HIPS AND HOLSTER AWAY FROM YOUR TRAINING BUDDY. Your weak hand should pull his wrist, and your strong hand should be pulling his fingers. The move should be violent and powerful. Be sure that your hips twisting away from your attacker happens at the same time as breaking his grasp.

8.) Draw.


Note: With practice, you can use step 6 and 7 to drive your attacker to the ground, by controlling his wrist.

[El Vato]

[I][Every year, a small number of trained law enforcement officers are killed with their own firearms. /I]

I agree with everything Joe said. Also, keep in mind that cops carry open, which makes snatching a holstered handgun a much easier chore, plus if it's properly concealed, the bad guy doesn't even know you have a handgun to snatch. Another reason why I'm down on open carry, as opposed to concealed carry.

In addition to the holstered retention techniques Joe has pointed out, it's important to be familiar with presenting and firing the handgun from a retention position, since most armed confrontations occur at relatively short distances where a shooter firing from an arms-extended IPSC-style isoceles stance could be disarmed.

[newarcher]

Zactly el vato,

In a couple of these grabs from police where the perp tried or actually got the officer's gun, the police officer was trying to cuff them when the perp twisted out and turned the tables.

But this thead is important none the less.

New

[JoeBlackSpade]

Good point.

If you are properly concealed, you should be able to avoid being disarmed!


Here's another technique:


1.) Stand with a buddy as described above, in the previous exercise.

2.) This time, you will simulate that you have drawn, and your attacker has closed the distance on you. He will grab your weapon with one of his hands; either one is fine. He can push the weapon either up, down, left or right, or any variation.

3.) If the weapon is pushed UP:

A. Instantly squeeze the trigger and FIRE THE WEAPON. After you recover control, you can fire again. Until you regain control, you want EVERY finger on your firing hand to grip as tight as possible. Firing in the upright position, you've just eliminated the chance of getting shot in the struggle, at least by the round that was in the chamber.

B. Using your free hand, quickly grasp over the barrel of your firearm. It should be ON TOP OF THE ATTACKER's hand, if possible.

*(You should now have your drawing hand on the pistol grip- as you did when you drew- and your free hand on the barrel/slide assembly, preferably "trapping" your opponents grasping hand on the barrel)*

C. Deliver a knee strike to the groin, thigh, or belly of your attacker. Even if you do no damage, your purpose is to throw him off balance. Do not release your two-handed grasp on the weapon.

D. Suck in the weapon close to your chest, muzzle upwards. Your attacker should be still attached, trapped under your weak hand.

E. Here is the break away: Take note of whatever arm your attacker used to grasp the weapon. Like a mirror image, drive the elbow of your corresponding mirror hand straight up in the sky. For example if your attacker grabbed your pistol with his right hand, your LEFT ELBOW should shoot straight up at this step, since your left arm corresponds, like a mirror, to his right arm.

F. Now drive your elbow and forearm STRAIGHT DOWN ACROSS the attackers wrist. * The downward motion will not only break the grip of your attacker, but with a little luck will break the wrist itself.



G. Perform immediate action (TAP RACK BANG), that is firmly slap the magazine, rack the slide, and fire.

[JoeBlackSpade]

Remember the above technique is for an opponent that has successfully grasped the weapon with one hand. In the scuffle, he may have failed to get his other hand on the weapon, or he may be repeatedly striking you with his free hand, jerking it around, trying to get you to let go. Be SURE that if you let go, you will be shot. You must retain your weapon, and break his grip while keeping both hands planted on your weapon. In the above scenario, the pistol (either due to the attacker, or by your own choice) is pointing UPWARDS.

[buzz_knox]

Also, keep in mind that cops carry open, which makes snatching a holstered handgun a much easier chore, plus if it's properly concealed, the bad guy doesn't even know you have a handgun to snatch. Another reason why I'm down on open carry, as opposed to concealed carry.

The problem is that all too often, properly concealed doesn't mean invisible all the time. Unless you use deep concealment carry methods, any weapon that is subject to a take away (such as anything beyond a pocket gun or even a small weapon carried OWB or IWB) will be detectable at some point by people looking (playing "spot the weapon" is a common game. At that point, it becomes more vulnearable than many police weapons as concealed carry holsters tend to not have any retention mechanisms beyond the limited amount offered precision boning.

Retention is an essential element of training for carriers, whether open or concealed.

By the way, one of the reasons police have their weapons taken away (even with retention holsters) is that many perps train for this scenario. It's one of the reasons prisons are often referred to as finishing schools for criminals. They also train to spot weapons. That makes training oneself all the more important.

[JoeBlackSpade]

Continuing from the above, step No. 3.)



If the weapon is pushed DOWN by your attacker:

A.) The weapon is POINTING DOWN AT THE GROUND; Quickly and aggressively attempt to fire the weapon into the attacker's legs, by using a driving motion- almost like a hand-held drill. Fire the weapon as above, to prevent accidental discharge of the chambered round.

B.) Clamp down TIGHTLY on the grip/trigger assembly with your firing hand. You want EVERY finger exerting maximum grip on the firearm, INCLUDING your trigger finger.

C.) Using your weak/non-firing hand, seize the barrel/slide assembly of your weapon, while "trapping" your opponent's grasping hand. To accomplish the trap and succeed in breaking his hold your weak/non-firing hand should land ON TOP of your opponents grasp. Keep in mind while training that in a real attack, your opponent is likely pummeling you with punches, using his free hand, trying to cause you to let go, and will be jerking the weapon around as well. Your movements should be quick and violent.

D.) You should now have your firing hand on the grip of your weapon, and your non-firing hand on the muzzle, preferably on top of your opponents grasping hand. The weapon is still pointing down. In one violent motion, drive the weapon up to your chest, muzzle up.

E.) As in the previous "break", flare your MIRROR ELBOW up to the sky, without releasing your firearm with either hand. The elbow you want to flare up is the one that corresponds, like a mirror image, to whatever side of your opponent that has grasped your weapon. If your opponent used his left arm to grasp the weapon you will flare your RIGHT elbow.

F.) Now, drive the forearm straight down and OVER your opponents wrist. This will break the grip, and as before, may break the attacker's wrist.

G.) Immediate action (TAP RACK BANG).

[JoeBlackSpade]

"By the way, one of the reasons police have their weapons taken away (even with retention holsters) is that many perps train for this scenario. It's one of the reasons prisons are often referred to as finishing schools for criminals..."


So true.

Disarming at close range is a learned skill, and so too is RETENTION. Train in retention, or don't, the choice is yours. Just don't be fooled into thinking that criminals won't go for your gun. If you are ever in a situation where you must use your pistol to defend your life, chances are very good that you'll be squaring off a convicted felon, who has already done time, and therefore someone who may already be skilled at defeating you at close range.

[JoeBlackSpade]

Continuing from Step 3 above;


If the weapon is pointing to the left or right, move it to the up, or down position, discharge the round in the chamber, and then break the grip using the above techniques.

These techniques can be employed while standing, sitting, and even kneeling.

Practice with your attacker using both hands alternately. First get the motion down, and then practice for speed, once the moves are automatic.

These techniques, if added to your muscle-memory, can save your life.

Remember the limitations of your weapon. Even if a round is chambered, the round may not fire, if the attacker has his hand on the hammer of your pistol.

The reason that you must perform immediate action after a confrontation is because even if you have successfully discharged the round in the chamber, the grappling involved will likely prevent your slide from cycling, thus there may or may not be a clean round in the chamber. If you use a revolver, you have a slight advantage in that immediate action is simply keep cycling the trigger, until a round goes downrange.

[JoeBlackSpade]

More to come!

[PJW001]

JBS,
Many thanks for this very informative and useful (with repeated training) info. I plan on going over the techniques with my sparing buddies.

[Mannlicher]

I believe its pretty much a non issue for the average Citizen.
The sort of things a cop experiences when dealing with an suspect, is quite different from what I would experience.
Cops pull their guns in anticipation of confronting, and bring to heel, if you will, a suspect.
I, on the other hand, as a Citizen, would pull and use a firearm only in a situation where my life was threatened I have no intentnion of holding a suspect, rather than just 'cover' the bad guy, I would be putting lead down range.
The skill set needed to function on the mean streets for cops ,is not what I feel is necessary for me.

[JoeBlackSpade]

PJW, let me know how it goes.

Mannlicher, I hope you NEVER have to draw your weapon.

Likewise, I hope that if you ever DO have to draw, that your attacker doesn't close the distance on you.

The techniques involving weapons retention are critical.

Here's why:

1.) You draw, fire and miss; no one's a perfect shot.

2.) if your attacker has spotted your concealed weapon- unknown to you

3.) your weapon misfires as your attacker charges, giving him time to close the distance

4.) you are subjected to attack by multiple assailants, and cannot stop them all.

5.) your attacker is struck, but is not stopped before he closes the distance, as occurs with those on certain types of drugs

6.) you discover that your attacker is a threat, but only after he has gotten close enough to attack you suddenly, and without warning.



Anyone who carries a weapon should know how to retain it in the event of a close conflict.

[j-framer]

JoeBlackSpade,

What does worry me, however, is the fact that there seems to be very little training available to the general public, concerning WEAPONS RETENTION.

No matter how great your marksmanship skills are, no matter how many thousands of rounds downrange, your weapon can't help you if you don't know how to keep it in your hands, and out of the hands of your attacker.

Very good to hear this. The title of this thread immediately caught my attention. The topic of retention (and some other practical close quarter survival skills) is occasionally raised, but nowhere near often enough, particularly compared to numerous outlandish scenarios (as opposed to realistic ones, which come up too) whose discussion contributes little to the average citizen's preparedness.

I read your instructions with interest. Though I've not received any formal training in this area, I have read some material discussing it. One thing that invariably strikes me when I hear any retention strategy described is this: it seems that one's realization of, and reaction to, the fact that a grab attempt is being made would have to be incredibly fast, and one's countering moves very well coordinated as well. We all know that action is faster than reaction. Add to this the presumed physical strength of your attacker, and I'm almost amazed that any retention technique can work at all, save against a slow, inept and/or weak individual. The combination of reaction speed, eye-hand coordination and power on the part of the defender must take much hard training to develop. I imagine for some it is never mastered. Because of this, the following cannot be overemphasized, and it was good to see you place it at #1:

1.) Range.

If someone is out of arms reach, there is no way they can get your weapon off of your body. By understanding- and being aware of range, you can reduce your chances of having your weapon siezed by an attacker.

Naturally, I realize that techniques such as you described are for situations that have already gone bad, through one's own fault or not.

Seeing a grab attempt defeated in real life using your methods would be a real eye-opener, I should think.

Many thanks for taking the time to share your expertise with us.

[JoeBlackSpade]

Thanks J-framer.

Here's what happens at close range if you aren't trained in retention:

You draw, and for whatever reason, the attacker gets inside, putting his hands on your weapon.

A tug-of-war ensues.

Whoever wins lives.




If your gun is ever snatched at lightning speed, and you fail to retain it, the outcome will likely be your funeral in a closed casket. Techniques for retention should be centered on close range grappling-style scuffles, where an attacker has gone for your weapon :

a.) in the holster
b.) in your hands as you attempt to draw down and fire


Retention techniques are necessary in case:

1.) You draw, fire and miss; no one's a perfect shot.

2.) if your attacker has spotted your concealed weapon- unknown to you

3.) your weapon misfires as your attacker charges, giving him time to close the distance

4.) you are subjected to attack by multiple assailants, and cannot stop them all.

5.) your attacker is struck, but is not stopped before he closes the distance, as occurs with those on certain types of drugs

6.) you discover that your attacker is a threat, but only after he has gotten close enough to attack you suddenly, and without warning.

[JoeBlackSpade]

Deputy Disarmed; Shot

The Associated Press

05/31/2007

CUMBERLAND, Md. — A Maryland state trooper was disarmed and nearly shot by a Pennsylvania man he had picked up along Interstate 68 while driving his squad car home from work, police said.

Jeffrey A. Burns, 25, of Ellwood City, Pa., rode peacefully in the passenger seat for about six miles early Sunday morning and then started punching Trooper Christopher Toey in the face and grabbed his pistol, Trooper Mitch Staily told the Cumberland Times-News.

During the ensuing struggle, Burns fired the weapon into the seat next to Toey's leg, Sgt. C.E. Brehm said.

Toey then drove onto the highway shoulder, where Burns got out and ran into a wooded area, police said. Toey and a backup trooper found him and took him into custody.

Burns remained at the Allegany County jail Tuesday with bond set at $500,000. He is charged with first- and second-degree assault and attempting to disarm an officer.

Toey, who works at the Westminster barracks, followed standard procedures by removing a pedestrian from the interstate and placing him in the front seat of the cruiser after checking for outstanding warrants and finding none, Brehm said. He said Toey had offered to drive Burns to Cumberland, 17 miles west of the pickup point.

"He was trying to be a nice guy and give him a ride," Brehm said.








Accidental Discharge and Weapons Retention

By Rodney Foo
Mercury News

SAN JOSE, Calif. — The robbery suspects got more than they bargained for when they called a Domino's and ordered three pizzas and two liters of soda—they got a San Jose cop posing as a delivery man.

But in what police say was an "intense fight" with three suspects, officer Geeno Gular was shot by a fellow officer, whose gun discharged accidentally during the alleged pizza robbery attempt. That officer was slightly injured.

In the end, two 17-year-old boys and a 16-year-old boy were arrested on suspicion of attempted robbery. One of the teens suffered a minor head injury, Sgt. Nick Muyo said Thursday.

Gular, a 13-year police veteran and an Army reservist who had been wounded in action overseas last year, was hit in the arm. Gular was treated at a hospital and later released.

His "spirits are good," Muyo said. "He's very lucky and I think he knows that. It could have been a tragic situation. Thankfully, he's OK."

Police did not disclose how the second officer's gun went off by accident. Nor did police reveal the identity of that officer or how he received his injury, although Muyo said it was not from gunfire.

The shooting and the attempted robbery are both under investigation, Muyo said.

Police said Wednesday's incident was related to another robbery that occurred two weeks ago but did not elaborate.

Muyo declined to confirm or deny an account that Gular was shot during an undercover operation in which an officer posed as a pizza delivery

Copyright 2007 San Jose Mercury News







Successful Retention In Baltimore


The Baltimore Sun

Two plainclothes police officers patrolling for drug activity stopped a man in a West Baltimore alley yesterday, and one officer shot him after he grabbed the other officer's gun, city police said.

The officers had been assigned to the area - about two blocks from the Western District station house on North Mount Street - in response to complaints about drug dealing. About 3:40 p.m., while driving a marked police cruiser, the officers spotted a man in an alley in the 1500 block of N. Gilmor St. The officers approached to investigate, a police spokesman said.

A fight broke out between the man and one of the officers, and a preliminary investigation showed that the other officer shot the man several times after the man gained control of the other officer's gun, police said.

The man was taken to Maryland Shock Trauma Center, and his condition was not immediately available last night. The names of the man and the officers, who were placed on administrative duties pending the outcome of an internal investigation, were not immediately released.

Copyright 2007 The Baltimore Sun Company
All Rights Reserved

[JoeBlackSpade]

Texas State Trooper Weapons Retention

Feb. 15--The Texas Rangers are investigating a shooting by a state trooper who got into a wrestling match for his weapon after a traffic stop Wednesday in Harris County.

Trooper Charles Kibble, 43, a 13-year veteran with the department, fired two shots from his revolver. One shot hit the chest of a Louisiana man who had earlier tried to take the trooper's gun, authorities said.

Dustin Shane Mosley, 23, of Roanoke, La., was flown to Memorial Hermann Hospital in Houston. "His injuries are serious but not life-threatening," said Tom Vinger, Texas Department of Public Safety spokesman.

Mosley was undergoing evaluation in the intensive care unit late Wednesday.

Kibble was treated at the scene for some scrapes and bruises.

Going to New Orleans

According to investigators, another trooper had pulled over Mosley's rental car with Louisiana plates at 1:45 a.m. on Interstate 10 east at Sjolander. Mosley had been returning to New Orleans from Houston.

"The trooper who made the initial stop (for speeding) smelled marijuana and got permission from Mosley to search. Trooper Kibble soon drove up to assist him," said Vinger.

Kibble was escorting Mosley back to his squad car to wait for the search to be completed, when instead of climbing into the back seat, Mosley bolted toward trees in an adjacent field, authorities said.

"Kibble gave chase, but he became entangled in some barbed wire," said Vinger.

"While Kibble was knocked on his back, the suspect attacked him and tried to get his weapon. Kibble pushed him off once, but the suspect came back again."

At that point, Kibble pulled his service revolver and fired twice, authorities said.

11 pounds of marijuana

The trooper who made the initial traffic stop was conducting a search at the time of the shooting. Eleven pounds of marijuana and an ounce of hydro marijuana (grown indoors with hydroponics) were recovered from Mosley's rental car, Vinger said.

Mosley has a previous conviction in Louisiana for cocaine possession. For this, he was placed on mandatory supervised probation for three years until February 2005, records show.

When the Rangers complete the investigation, it will be turned over to the Harris County district attorney's office to review.



Copyright (c) 2007, Houston Chronicle

[JoeBlackSpade]

N.J. cops shot during traffic stop

The Associated Press

EGG HARBOR TWP- A motorist bolted from his car during a roadside traffic stop, seized a police officer’s pistol and shot two officers, authorities said, triggering an all-night manhunt that ended early Thursday when a police dog captured the suspect.

One officer was hospitalized in critical condition, the other in stable condition. Both were expected to recover, according to Police Chief John Coyle.

The suspect, Christopher Blank, 27, of Egg Harbor Township, was charged with three counts of attempted murder after being apprehended about 5:30 a.m., hiding under a blanket on a ballfield, Atlantic County Prosecutor Jeffrey Blitz said.

According to Blitz, the incident began just after midnight Wednesday when Officer Christopher Leary pulled over a 1999 Toyota that had cut him off about a half-mile earlier. Inside were Blank and girlfriend Destiny Baker.

Blank got out of the car, struggled with Leary and fled across Route 322 and another street before being caught by Leary and Officer Clear Constantino, who had arrived to provide backup.

In the ensuing struggle, Blank wrested control of Constantino’s .40-caliber Glock from her and allegedly shot her once in the abdomen and twice in the right leg. Leary was shot once in the chest.

Both were wearing bulletproof vests, but Constantino’s wound was in the lower abdomen, inches below the bottom of the vest. She underwent surgery at AtlantiCare Regional Medical Center and was in critical condition.

Leary, 34, a three-year veteran, was hospitalized in stable condition.

Blank fled from the shooting scene as about 150 lawmen fanned out through the neighborhood and state police helicopter provided overhead backup.

He was spotted by Officer William Loder just off Coolidge Avenue and traded gunfire with him, each firing one shot, Blitz said. Blank was hit in the left bicep while Loder was unhurt.




Cases of Officers Killed by Their Own Guns Likely Will Not Change R.I. Policies

By BROOKE DONALD
The Associated Press

Over a recent six-week period, a handful of officers from Rhode Island to Illinois had their guns taken from them after they allegedly were overpowered by suspects or inmates. In each case, the ending was deadly.

The incidents have shaken departments and raised questions about safety procedures. But some law enforcement experts say not much will change _ and shouldn't. Despite the latest tragedies, they say there's no evidence that basic procedure is failing officers.

"You do not write policies to deal with the extreme," said Michael Brady, an expert in police procedures in the Administration of Justice department at Salve Regina University in Newport. "The one thing the incidents do have in common is that they are a reminder of how dangerous police work is."

On March 11, a defendant on trial for rape in Atlanta allegedly overpowered a courthouse deputy, took her gun and killed four people, including two law enforcement officers. A little over a month later, a Providence detective was killed with his own weapon while interviewing a suspect at police headquarters.

Police in Augusta, Ga., killed an inmate who fled on April 21 after overpowering a state corrections officer and taking his gun, authorities said. Two days later, a man under arrest in Spring Valley, Ill., wrested away an officer's gun and beat him with it. The suspect then fatally shot himself, police said.

"It's one too many when it happens," Brady said. "But if you look nationwide, the frequency of a police officer's gun being taken by a suspect is extremely rare."

There are no national statistics on how many times officers' guns are taken away. But the FBI says that of the 616 law enforcement officers killed on duty by criminals from 1994 through 2003, 52 were killed with their own weapon, amounting to 8 percent.

"What's remarkable is that it doesn't happen more often," said Jim Pasco, executive director of the national Fraternal Order of Police, the nation's largest union for law enforcement officers.

Police are trained to protect their weapons if they are attacked, and to resist using their guns unless a threat is imminent. If a weapon is grabbed, the officer always tries to retrieve it and often succeeds, experts said.

Michael White, assistant professor at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York City, said the deputy overpowered in Atlanta should have been accompanied by more officers.

"Certainly when you're moving someone from prison to a courtroom, if that person's not going to be shackled you need to have more than a 1-to-1 ratio," he said.

Defendant Brian Nichols wasn't restrained, partly because of legal rulings against letting a jury see a defendant in shackles.

White said some courts have defendants wear stun belts, which can produce an incapacitating jolt of electricity and can be activated remotely. But a defendant in Texas last year put a sandwich between his belt's batteries and electrodes, interrupting the current, and was able to attack a witness during his trial.

Uniformed patrol officers use specialized security holsters, but most plainclothes officers use simpler holsters designed to conceal rather than secure the gun, experts said.

In the Providence case, Esteban Carpio allegedly grabbed detective Sgt. James Allen's gun while being questioned in a locked conference room. Police will not discuss how Carpio got Allen's gun, or what kind of holster Allen was using.

Many departments have weapons-free zones, often in holding cells and interrogation rooms, and suspects are kept in restraints in some areas. But in the Providence case, police say, Carpio was not under arrest so he was not in handcuffs. And they were in a conference room, not a weapons-free zone.

Experts said there is talk about developing specialized guns that would be activated by an ID chip implanted in the officer's wrist and would only fire if that officer pulled the trigger. But the guns raise safety concerns, partly because of the possibility the technology would fail.

Experts said it's important not to go overboard making policies based on the worst-case scenario.

"Imagine a traffic cop coming up to your car in full riot gear because you might be the one person to turn on him," Brady said. "You'd think that's a little over the top, right?"

[JoeBlackSpade]

There are many other cases I can find, and I just won't post them, for the sake of brevity.

I'll post a couple more disarming techniques in the next couple of days.

God bless. Be safe.

[Capt. Charlie]

Those of you following this thread have probably noticed that one particularly rude post has been deleted, along with a couple of responses.

Hopefully, that'll get this back on track.

The author of the offending post knows it was uncalled for and should count this as his one and only official warning.

[JoeBlackSpade]

A brief comment on my background:

At the Presidential Retreat, Camp David, in Maryland, there are several different Marine units, including a unique, dedicated force which conducts "reactionary" duty.

As with all things Presidential, the name of a unit which serves the President is always followed by the official designation of the number "one". There is Marine One, HMX-1, Air Force One, and so on. For the Presidential Response Force, the title is Force One. I was privileged to serve as part of this team, and eventually lead it as an NCO, under the commanding officer, with distinction. The mission was:

-Respond to, locate, close with, and neutralize any and all threats to POTUS (President of the United States), and/or FLOTUS (First Lady of the United States) by fire and maneuver. While the Secret Service is responsible for close personal protection for POTUS, Camp David is a sprawling resort, and security is augmented accordingly. Also, the Presidential Protective Detail (PPD) competent though they might be, can't repel a couple of battalions of Spetznaz. That's what WE were for.

While I won't go into details, training was superb, and our budgets were fairly unrestricted- unlike other Marine units which are rarely funded as they should be, yet are often held to high standards and expectations.

I also attended The Close Combat Instructor Course at Camp Geiger, under Master Gunnery Sergeant Donvito himself, and other schools, including CQB school at Chesapeake. I finished special duty at Camp David after meritorious promotion to Sergeant, and went back into the fleet where I served in other capacities.
















If there aren't any questions, I'd like to get back to posting (AND READING ABOUT) some techniques, which is why I started the thread to begin with.
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[BillCA]

Joe,

Thank you for passing along the useful information. It's something not everyone thinks about.

On your technique, however, I have to disagree. I experimented without a partner for a few minutes, attempting to implement the technique and found it more complex than what I was taught. (PM me for my reasons).

The technique I was taught is based on the same technique to disengage someone who has grabbed your baton in the middle. This is to rotate the gun around, such that if the muzzle was up, your move was to rotate the gun around it's horizontal axis to muzzle down and/or muzzle down & towards your attacker. If the attacker still has a grip, rolling the gun over will usually break the grip.

Visual pattern. Muzzle up with you looking at the top of the gun (through the knuckles of your attacker). Rotate the muzzle to your left until it is beyond parallel to the ground. You can still see the 'top' of the gun. Now rotate the muzzle towards the attacker and down while rolling the grip upward. If the gun inverts, the muzzle should point past your right side. At this point, yank the gun back to your strong side, stiff arm his face with your weak hand whilst bringing the gun to bear.

The limitations imposed by the wrist and elbow will reduce your opponent's leverage and ability to maintain a grip. When done forcefully, it's very quick.

[JoeBlackSpade]

Originally Posted by BillCA

Muzzle up with you looking at the top of the gun (through the knuckles of your attacker). Rotate the muzzle to your left until it is beyond parallel to the ground. You can still see the 'top' of the gun. Now rotate the muzzle towards the attacker and down while rolling the grip upward. If the gun inverts, the muzzle should point past your right side. At this point, yank the gun back to your strong side, stiff arm his face with your weak hand whilst bringing the gun to bear.

The limitations imposed by the wrist and elbow will reduce your opponent's leverage and ability to maintain a grip. When done forcefully, it's very quick.

Great description. This is the challenge we face when putting a technique into writing. Without walking through the steps, it can be confusing at times.

The technique you are describing is an excellent method of YANKING free by basically using force applied on the muzzle against THE BACK/OUTSIDE of the attacker's wrist- or outside edge of the attackers hand, after the initial PUSH. There is a technique in Kung Fu called sticky hands where you control your attacker's movements and keep him off balance by pushing and pulling. There's an element of that in your technique.

This is one of the fundamentals of retention- understanding the weaknesses and limitations of the joints.




This technique will break a hold, and will leave you in control.

If the attacker has those monkey fingers that won't let go, or if he's much bigger and stronger than you, you may have to employ a forearm across the wrist instead.


I think this is the perfect place to mention that we all have our favorites- and I like to use what a Gunny once taught me: "Learn everything you can, and put it in your grab bag. When you need it, you can pull something out and apply it as necessary. The more you have in your grab-bag, the more prepared you'll be."