What kind of gun did Wild Bill Hickock and Wyatt Earp use?

[cloudcroft]

True. Besides, Earp (and his kin) was as much a criminal as lawman, so let's not glamorize the bum.

-- John D.

[blume357]

yes, Wyatt was a little bit of a rouge but he tried to do the right thing at the right time...

as for the thread being 10 years old... well the folks the original question was about carried those guns ...what? a hundred and 30 years ago?

[Malamute]

Hickok was known to have owned a number of different pistols, including I believe an 1860 Army Colt, and at least one S&W .44 cartridge pistol, I believe a single action American model, a top break with an 8" barrel. I believe he simply liked the Navies, and their feel, and shot them well. As to their power level, comparing them to a 380 may not be entirely accurate. Keith wrote of talking with Civil war vets and others that had used various pistols in fights, and they generally thought tha Navy was a decent fighting pistol for it's day, even comparing it to the 38 spl 158 gr RNL load, and feeling that the stopping power was superior to that load. Notice I did not say "any load ever made" for the 38 spl. The old 158 gr RN lead load didnt enjoy a very good reputation for stopping power. The difference was most liekly, as Keith mentioned, that the 36 cal soft lead ball, while lighter, tended to deform like a hollow point does, and make a more serious wound than a harder RN bullet. This was a well known phenomenon back in the day, and the round ball was generally thought a better stopper on men than the conical bullets available for the 36, tho the latter had better penetration.

There are also known pictures of Hickok carrying pistols in holsters. Because he carried his pistols in one particular way at one time doesnt mean thats the only way he ever carried them. Same as the Navies themselves. They are what he's best knwon for, but he also was known to have owned, and used various guns over time. I believe in the Tuttle fight he used either an 1860 or a Dragoon, I don't recall which.

I for one, also believe that Hickok may have had more than the one pair of Colts Navies, just as many serious shooters today, and over time, have had a number of guns, and spares.

[shurshot]

I just don't get it???? How could either one defend themselves and or enforce the laws of the old west without a semi auto gun made of plastic, high capacity magazines, night sights,and high tech self defense ammo???? And neither one has been through an "internet forum approved" self defense combat course!!!

I mean, come on guys, ask any Mall Ninja worth his salt; you cannot defend yourself properly without modern high tech weapons and lots of training certificates!!!

I suspect that both Earp and Hicock were fictional characters in dime store novels...

[Mike Irwin]

"well the folks the original question was about carried those guns ...what? a hundred and 30 years ago?"

That's called history.

This is just raking up an old, dead thread.

[w_houle]

This is just raking up an old, dead thread.

Yeah, but at least he no one had to tell him to use the search function.

Anyone chronograph a .36?

[cloudcroft]

blume357,

Thanks, but I'd rather hang out with John Wesley Hardin...at least I'd know which side of the law he was on that particular week.

-- John D.

[Samtu_Ray]

I just can't resist posting in zombie threads...

It was simpler world back then...very few fair fights and the first to draw (no matter if the other guy was even awake) usually won.

Honor was in the telling...by the survivor.

[cloudcroft]

Yes, like when "lawman" John Selman walked up behind John Wesley Hardin (Acme Saloon, El Paso, TX) and shot him in the back. I guess he knew he'd not survive a face-to-face encounter. Or "lawman" Pat Garrett, who is suspected of having done something similar (shoot first) to Billy the Kid, despite Garrett's words to the contrary.

"Back shooting" wasn't considered honorable -- and certainly not something to brag about without bringing cowardly shame upon yourself -- but apparently, even "the law" did it back then...

-- John D.

[Uncle Ben]

I, for one, am glad this thread was brought back from the dead, cause I never would have seen it otherwise, and the history and discussion is quite interesting.

[Jim March]

At least some members of the Clanton family are not only still around, they have a *website* up arguing their side of the affair and discussing Wyatt's shortcomings.

While we can chuckle at this being discussed on the Internet (me, I think it's hilarious) they have copies of some of Wyatt's court testimony after the fact that really does look screwball.

And Doc was a definite maniac...

[Jim March]

As to whether an SA is still a valid personal defense choice, my daily carry rig and the only centerfire gun I own...



To be fair, the sights are massively upgraded, it's a 357 loaded red-hot, reloads are in Bianchi speed strips and being a Ruger it's safe to carry six-up. But it's otherwise a decent replica of the 1873 Colt...

[Mike Irwin]

""Back shooting" wasn't considered honorable -- and certainly not something to brag about without bringing cowardly shame upon yourself -- but apparently, even "the law" did it back then..."

First rule of gunfighting.

Survive.

[Malamute]

"This is just raking up an old, dead thread."

I thought it was a "classic, timeless" thread?


I believe the Navies with a full charge and round ball runs a little over 1000 fps vel.


Someone mentioned having to take a percussion gun completely apart every time you shot it. I havent found that to be neccesary, only taken the cylinder out and cleaned it and the barrel in hot water, and wiping off what I could of the frame and hammer, reloading it, and never had any trouble with them, including leaving them loaded for a year or more. I should say I've had an occasional fast hang fire when leaving them loaded that long, but they always did fire.

Yes, grease over the balls is a nuisance, but it wasnt done all the time back in the day from what I understand. The chain fire question is more of a cap problem than grease over the balls. The grease does help lube the bullet, and keep fouling soft.

[Bill DeShivs]

For the record, Hickock often carried a cut down 10 ga. double barrel under his coat.
Gun was cut to pistol configuration and slung over the shoulder.

[nate45]

Originally Posted by ZVP

What is your opnion of Hickock's choice?

The 1851 Navy points better than the 1861 Army. In fact the 1851 grip is the one Colt used on the SAA, one of the best pointing handguns of all time.

Little was known about wound ballistics back then. All they knew was either one of them made a hole in you. Also soft lead round balls, do more damage than you might think.

Since the 1851 pointed better and handled faster, I'm fairly certain thats why Bill used the Navy Colt. Sights on handguns were primitive at best and point shooting was the style of the day.

[Jim March]

Something else I find interesting about the open-top Colts is that the whole gun actually forms a pretty good "big crude fast sight", better than most revolvers and as good as stuff like 1911s, Glocks, etc. With those latter types, the top ISPC/IDPA guys in iron-sight classes are using the whole gun as a big crude sight and doing target-focus instead of focusing on the front sight like modern doctrine says. Many of these guys have abandoned colored sights completely so as not to distract from this process.

I think they've re-discovered what ol' Bill knew about his open-top Colts. Bill has been recorded as doing a sight alignment in combat shooting in that one well-documented duel, but I for one doubt he actually used the miniscule sights.

He used the whole gun.

[aarondhgraham]

Sights on handguns were primitive at best and point shooting was the style of the day.

On the old Colt cap and ball revolvers,,,
The rear sight was a notch cut into the hammer itself.

[nate45]

Originally Posted by aarondhgraham

The rear sight was a notch cut into the hammer itself.

Yes, I know and thats not primitive compared to modern handgun sights?

[Jim March]

Yes, the open-top factory sights were crude as hell. But you didn't have to use them. That's the point...the cylinder lined up with the exposed-to-view barrel to form a nice "non-sight" the way any topstrap revolver does NOT. With a topstrap revolver, SA or DA, what you see from the rear is the rear sight and front sight only. You can't use the cylinder and barrel to form a sight index the way you can either an open-top revolver OR a modern semi-auto.

So in that sense, the open-top sights were actually compatible with a modern, advanced technique that didn't become common until autos were common in personal defense carry, which is actually fairly recent in the US in large numbers.

[nate45]

So let me get this straight Jim March. Are telling me to go out and buy a Colt New Agent and start experimenting?




Okay, if you insist, I might as well. I needed an excuse to buy a new gun.

[Malamute]

"... Bill has been recorded as doing a sight alignment in combat shooting in that one well-documented duel, but I for one doubt he actually used the miniscule sights...."


I disagree with that thought. I do agree that some good shooting can be done by "feel" and "pointing", but sights still make a difference. I don't think the sights on percussion Colts are all that bad. Not as good as squared sights, but entirely functional if you have decent vision. I've hit gallon size rocks @ 80 yards with them.

If in doubt, look at the sights on Hickoks guns in the picture above. One has been replaced with a very small dovetail front sight. That looks to me like he had it modified to hit exactly where he wanted it to. Only one has been changed. It's possible it was lost, but I'd bet it was done to make that particular gun shoot to the sights.

I've seen other old percussion Colts with similar sights.

[Daryl]

They reeact the gunfight every year during "Springfield Days" or some such. (I live in the sticks and try to stay out of town.

I feel the same way about Tombstone. I was born and raised in this country, so there's really nothing new there for me.

Even so, once in a while a friend or relative will visit from other parts of the country, so I've done the Tombstone thing a few times.

Daryl

[cloudcroft]

Mike,

I was talking about then. Different values then. Times change.

But I'm all for shooting criminals any way you can, facing you, running away -- any way you can. Unfortunately, it's not legal, even today.

I like the old ways...

-- John D.

[nate45]

Life and Times of Judge Roy Bean: Bad Bob the Albino