Name this widgit

davlandrum · February 14, 2008, 04:22 PM

On one of the shooting shows, they were building some custom ammo for a rifle and used a kit to determine optimum OAL. It had a gauge and a "cartridge" that you chambered, then removed and measured.

I have snooped around on Midway and can't figure out what they were using.

Thanks in advance, all you smart people!

Dave

**Mal H** · February 14, 2008, 04:47 PM

It's an OAL gauge made by Stoney Point. I have one and several adapter cases (you need one of their cases for each caliber). It works quite well for the intended purpose of optimizing the OAL to your rifle. The old "smoke the bullet" method also works well, but the Stoney Point gauge is a lot more accurate.

[Added a few minutes later]
I checked Midway and it looks like Hornady might have bought the manufacturing rights from Stoney Point. Anyway here is the Hornady version which is exactly the same as the Stoney point:
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...611&t=11082005

The page listing all the cases:
http://www.midwayusa.com/esearch.exe...in+Search.y=11
(The second link may or may not work since it is a search link and not a specific page link.)

Electronrider · February 15, 2008, 09:01 AM

What exactly is "smoking the bullet". I am new, and am curious about this as well.

Hunter Customs · February 15, 2008, 09:18 AM

If memory serves me correctly I believe RCBS made or makes OAL gauges that are caliber specific.
Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

rwilson452 · February 15, 2008, 09:40 AM

Smoking the bullet is a process of seating a bullet in a dummy round. then putting a deposit of smoke on the bullet some use a magic marker instead. You then chamber the round. after you extract the round you look for marks on the bullet indicating it touched the lands. usually you start with the bullet seated long as to insure it is touching the lands. then seat the bullet a couple thousands shorter again "smoke" the bullet and chamber it again. look for marks. you repeat the process until you no longer see marks from the lands. The process is a lot slower than the stoney point gauge. as you can see it's also a lot cheaper.

Quote:

What exactly is "smoking the bullet". I am new, and am curious about this as well.

Gbro · February 15, 2008, 10:52 AM

"Smoking the bullet"

Like the previous poster stated, it is a old way and cheap way to determine when the ogive of the bullet makes contact with the rifling.

Take the old farmer/kitchen matches, just as they are lighting up they give off a lot of smoke. The bullet in a dummy cartridge is exposed to this smoke while the match is flaring up, coating the bullet.
This is usually done with the bullet seated high in the case. and test chambered and seated deeper in small increments until the bolt closes. This measurement can then be recorded as a start reference. I then back up the seating die very slightly and this is where the bullet in the "dummy" is smoked. What we are looking for is contact markings in the smoke as any slight touch will be seen on the smoked bullet. record this length for this load. adjust your OAL with this being the max length. The dry markers do replace the match in this process.
Many loads set this way will be to long to load in the magazine. For a hunting load you would do well to follow listed OAL's
I hope this helps, didn't mean to get long, but its a process.

davlandrum · February 15, 2008, 03:51 PM

Thanks for the assistance, I knew one of the smart guys here would know.

Thanks for the link Mal

OK follow-up question: So I spring for the actual tool (or go cheap and smoke the bullet), how far off the lands would be a good starting point?

My buddy did some 30-06 loads for me based on his father's data that seat tight to the lands. They shoot OK, but I think they could be better.

rwilson452 · February 15, 2008, 04:47 PM

How far off the lands is an individual rifle thing. The best I can tell you is it should be between .015 and .03. My model 70 liked .02, but yours could be different. After you find the right length you may be able to tweak the powder load again.

if you use the smoke method you will need to keep the round from scraping the side of the chamber going in and out. I would also rock the bolt up and down a coupe of times but not enough to unlock the breach. This will cause the lands to make a mark on the bullet 90 degrees from that of the round going in and out. If your really tight in the lands it may cause the bullet to get stuck in the lands and not make much of a mark and in the worst case the bullet will not come out with the case. If this should happen, drop a cleaning rod down from the muzzle and it should pop right out. don't use a jag on the cleaning rod.

Quote:

Thanks for the assistance, I knew one of the smart guys here would know.

Thanks for the link Mal

OK follow-up question: So I spring for the actual tool (or go cheap and smoke the bullet), how far off the lands would be a good starting point?

My buddy did some 30-06 loads for me based on his father's data that seat tight to the lands. They shoot OK, but I think they could be better.

**Mal H** · February 15, 2008, 05:26 PM

Quote:

... how far off the lands would be a good starting point?

I agree with rwilson. You don't want to set them too close, e.g., .005" for the first goround. Like he said .02 is a good safe starting point.

Once you understand the process and your reloading skills, you can venture closer to the lands to see what the affects are. A little bullet jump is much safer than none and usually more accurate. If you jam the bullet into the grooves an inconsistent amount, you will often hurt accuracy and could cause unwarranted pressure spikes.

Quote:

My buddy did some 30-06 loads for me based on his father's data that seat tight to the lands.

Oh my! Do yourself and your rifle a favor, don't use your buddy's reloads. Was his father's data based on your rifle? Does your buddy know how tight the bullet is in the lands? You run the risk of actually pulling the bullet if you happen to need to unload the rifle. Cleaning up the powder mess and pushing the bullet out isn't something you want to do very often. (We won't mention the uncertain pressure spike that could result.)

mrawesome22 · February 15, 2008, 06:46 PM

Take an empty case. Cut a vertical slit in the neck, barely into the shoulder, with a hacksaw. Barely seat the bullet you want to use in this case with your hands. Chamber this round in your rifle. Eject it with your hand covering the ejection port. Take it out and measure it from base to tip with your calipers. This will give you MAX OAL (over all length) for that bullet. In other words, this bullet is touching the rifling. Now you can experiment with different seating depths. I've found that my rifle usually gives best accuracy .030" away from the rifling. But you'll just have to experiment as to what shoots the best out of your gun. This method works very well and you don't have to waste money on a Stoney Point gauge.

February 14, 2008, 04:22 PM	#1
davlandrum Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2006 Location: Lane County Oregon Posts: 2,547	Name this widgit On one of the shooting shows, they were building some custom ammo for a rifle and used a kit to determine optimum OAL. It had a gauge and a "cartridge" that you chambered, then removed and measured. I have snooped around on Midway and can't figure out what they were using. Thanks in advance, all you smart people! Dave __________________ U.S Army, Retired Ethics is knowing the difference between what you have a right to do and what is right to do. -Potter Stewart

February 15, 2008, 10:52 AM	#6
Gbro Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,084	"Smoking the bullet" Like the previous poster stated, it is a old way and cheap way to determine when the ogive of the bullet makes contact with the rifling. Take the old farmer/kitchen matches, just as they are lighting up they give off a lot of smoke. The bullet in a dummy cartridge is exposed to this smoke while the match is flaring up, coating the bullet. This is usually done with the bullet seated high in the case. and test chambered and seated deeper in small increments until the bolt closes. This measurement can then be recorded as a start reference. I then back up the seating die very slightly and this is where the bullet in the "dummy" is smoked. What we are looking for is contact markings in the smoke as any slight touch will be seen on the smoked bullet. record this length for this load. adjust your OAL with this being the max length. The dry markers do replace the match in this process. Many loads set this way will be to long to load in the magazine. For a hunting load you would do well to follow listed OAL's I hope this helps, didn't mean to get long, but its a process. __________________ Gbro CGVS For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, But to us who are being saved, It Is The Power Of God. 1Corinthians 1-18

February 15, 2008, 03:51 PM	#7
davlandrum Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2006 Location: Lane County Oregon Posts: 2,547	Thanks for the assistance, I knew one of the smart guys here would know. Thanks for the link Mal OK follow-up question: So I spring for the actual tool (or go cheap and smoke the bullet), how far off the lands would be a good starting point? My buddy did some 30-06 loads for me based on his father's data that seat tight to the lands. They shoot OK, but I think they could be better. __________________ U.S Army, Retired Ethics is knowing the difference between what you have a right to do and what is right to do. -Potter Stewart

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February 14, 2008, 04:47 PM	#2
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,947	It's an OAL gauge made by Stoney Point. I have one and several adapter cases (you need one of their cases for each caliber). It works quite well for the intended purpose of optimizing the OAL to your rifle. The old "smoke the bullet" method also works well, but the Stoney Point gauge is a lot more accurate. [Added a few minutes later] I checked Midway and it looks like Hornady might have bought the manufacturing rights from Stoney Point. Anyway here is the Hornady version which is exactly the same as the Stoney point: http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...611&t=11082005 The page listing all the cases: http://www.midwayusa.com/esearch.exe...in+Search.y=11 (The second link may or may not work since it is a search link and not a specific page link.)

February 15, 2008, 09:01 AM	#3
Electronrider Member Join Date: October 24, 2006 Posts: 28	What exactly is "smoking the bullet". I am new, and am curious about this as well.

February 15, 2008, 09:18 AM	#4
Hunter Customs Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2005 Location: Osborn, Missouri Posts: 2,697	If memory serves me correctly I believe RCBS made or makes OAL gauges that are caliber specific. Regards Bob Hunter www.huntercustoms.com

February 15, 2008, 06:46 PM	#10
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	Take an empty case. Cut a vertical slit in the neck, barely into the shoulder, with a hacksaw. Barely seat the bullet you want to use in this case with your hands. Chamber this round in your rifle. Eject it with your hand covering the ejection port. Take it out and measure it from base to tip with your calipers. This will give you MAX OAL (over all length) for that bullet. In other words, this bullet is touching the rifling. Now you can experiment with different seating depths. I've found that my rifle usually gives best accuracy .030" away from the rifling. But you'll just have to experiment as to what shoots the best out of your gun. This method works very well and you don't have to waste money on a Stoney Point gauge.