The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old January 14, 2017, 09:33 AM   #76
AK103K
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2001
Posts: 9,533
Quote:
Wow, nice recoil control. That is convincing, but would require a lot of practice. Most people wouldn't be able to do that (or should I say wouldn't put the practice time in to be able to do that.)
It really doesn't take much practice, once you're shown how to properly do things. Some guns are a little different than others, but the technique is the same for all of them.

Things like the MAC's and the pistols, with or without stocks are a little different, but most of the shoulder fired guns with reasonable cyclic rates are pretty easy, even for a beginner, assuming they are willing to listen and learn. Kids and women are usually the easier people to teach in that respect.


Quote:
It's all about trigger control.
Trigger control is a big part of it, but not all of it. I think a lot of new shooters are more focused on the gun than trying to get it to do what they want. Just a little bit of sensory overload.

I've found too, many try to actually use the sights, as opposed to shooting over them, when shooting in FA. That just aggravates the paying attention to what the gun is doing instead of where the rounds are going, as you're not going to be able to hold a sight picture. If you're just going to squeeze off one round, sure, use the sights. Anything more, over the top.

Quote:
Bump fire is not the same as full auto.
It's not, although some of the various methods are better than others. The best improvised method I've seen, was the "rubber band" around the mag well mod on the AR's. Once learned, it's pretty close to "on demand" FA, it still requires some effort on your part.

The problem with bump fire is, you really don't have the control, and usually have to focus on the gun to get it to run. Just something else to get in the way. Cheap fun if you have the place and ammo.
__________________
"If the rule you followed brought you to this,
of what use was the rule?"

“The enemy is anybody who's going to get you killed, no matter which side he is on.” - Joseph Heller
AK103K is offline  
Old January 14, 2017, 09:57 AM   #77
g.willikers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 9,649
Full auto vs semi auto, skill over equipment?
Very close indeed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uxDPUhxLUY
__________________
Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez:
“Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”
g.willikers is offline  
Old January 14, 2017, 11:27 AM   #78
DMK
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2001
Location: Over the hills and far, far away
Posts: 2,570
Quote:
It really doesn't take much practice, once you're shown how to properly do things. Some guns are a little different than others, but the technique is the same for all of them.

Things like the MAC's and the pistols, with or without stocks are a little different, but most of the shoulder fired guns with reasonable cyclic rates are pretty easy, even for a beginner, assuming they are willing to listen and learn. Kids and women are usually the easier people to teach in that respect.
I was actually referring to a full auto handgun specifically.

I've never shot one, but the G18, FA CZ-75 and Beretta 93R look like they would be a lot more difficult to master accurate fire that a full auto carbine.
DMK is offline  
Old January 14, 2017, 11:40 AM   #79
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 18,869
DMK - I like your comment about poor solution for poor legislation.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline  
Old January 16, 2017, 09:22 AM   #80
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 10,322
Quote:
I was actually referring to a full auto handgun specifically.
While my AC556 in a Sage stock is quite easy for me to control in 3-burst or even full-auto; I have to admit I doubt I'd be very effective with a full-auto Glock.
Skans is offline  
Old January 16, 2017, 09:55 AM   #81
A pause for the COZ
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 11, 2012
Location: Braham, Minnesota
Posts: 1,297
Practical civilian use??
If your protecting your Casa from a armed band of like say 10.
They try to rush you from behind their cars to gain entry.
A few full auto bust may just provide a disincentive for them from that attempt.

Not a wholly likely scenario but as we have seen in Baltimore and Chicago.
Its entirely possible you may be holding a mob at bay.
__________________
NRA life member. US Army veteran, 11 Bravo.
A pause for the COZ is offline  
Old January 16, 2017, 12:37 PM   #82
johnwilliamson062
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 9,332
I don't think a full auto burst from the assault rifle or SMGs most are referencing has an effect greater than rapid semi-auto fire.

I'm not an expert, and many here have greater experience than myself, but I say this having been down range from both types of weapons fired in anger.

Neither the sound of firing nor the effects of impact on short bursts from the high cyclic rate weapons was much different than semi-auto fire. Totally irrelevant once multiple weapons are firing.
I've heard in Vietnam, a conflict over long before my birth, standard response to an ambush was for everyone to dump a mag out of their rifles into the jungle. There must have been some study of this if it was official policy. A 30 round mag is empty in less than 3 seconds with an m16 cyclic.

Start talking about heavier weapons with belts, slower rates of fire, and better heat dispersion; basically able to sustain more bursts for longer periods, things change.
__________________
$0 of an NRA membership goes to legislative action or court battles. Not a dime. Only money contributed to the NRA-ILA or NRA-PVF. Second Amendment Foundation is a solid alternative.
First Shotgun Thread First Rifle Thread First Pistol Thread
johnwilliamson062 is online now  
Old January 16, 2017, 02:43 PM   #83
jmorris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 22, 2006
Posts: 2,460
Quote:
Cute but inaccurate.
Not sure what you're context is here, but it's not quite right in both respects.

Fired ala Chuck, with no stock and one handed, its a pretty accurate statement, especially if you have no experience with one.

If you're referring to the guns being inaccurate, that is not an accurate statement, and especially if you do have experience with them.

If you have ever fired one, even just once, you would know that there are lots safer places to be other than where it is aimed.

If it was also a Powder Springs MAC with adjustable post sight vs the others with the thicker bent metal sight, you would also have had the chance to see just how accurate they can shoot as well.

jmorris is offline  
Old January 16, 2017, 02:57 PM   #84
jmorris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 22, 2006
Posts: 2,460
Quote:
Wow, nice recoil control. That is convincing, but would require a lot of practice. Most people wouldn't be able to do that (or should I say wouldn't put the practice time in to be able to do that.)
That's the first day I played with that pistol but yeah, not the first time I ever shot one.
jmorris is offline  
Old January 16, 2017, 03:03 PM   #85
MarkCO
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 1998
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 1,935
FA is like going to the movies, or an amusement park ride. Fun to do, leaves a smile, but too expensive for EDC.
__________________
Good Shooting, MarkCO
www.CarbonArms.us
MarkCO is offline  
Old January 16, 2017, 03:19 PM   #86
jmorris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 22, 2006
Posts: 2,460
And that is one thing it is perfect for.

Other than racecars it's one of the most effective ways to turn money into noise.
jmorris is offline  
Old January 16, 2017, 06:45 PM   #87
Tinbucket
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 17, 2015
Posts: 202
Full Auto - of any real use

Full Auto provides a drastic increase of firepower. Learn to use it and be far better armed for occasions.
Aimed fire is still plausable in an AR, in 3 round burst or short full auto burst once you use it enough, that is practice enough ,in using it.
Practically, instinct shooting works better and using the tracers in prolonged discharge like a water hose on targets.
Without getting into combat to practice it, instinct aiming, where the gun functions as an extension, of your hand, is best.
Especially with signs on some guns today, including handguns. I can't hit the target worth squat with the Kimber but from instinct shooting hit it every time.
Took lots of shooting or practice over the years.
Tinbucket is offline  
Old January 16, 2017, 07:18 PM   #88
AK103K
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2001
Posts: 9,533
Quote:
If you have ever fired one, even just once, you would know that there are lots safer places to be other than where it is aimed
As I said above, it all depends on how you're shooting them.

I had one of the M10/M11 hybrid SWD M11/9mm's, and in the 30+ years I had it, it was about shot to death.

If you shoot them with the stock extended, even without a muzzle device, they are very controllable and fairly easy to shoot well with, with someone who is familiar with them.

Without the stock/muzzle device, not so much. The only time I ever put rounds into the ceiling at an indoor range, was with my MAC with the stock collapsed. If you have a technique that can keep it from doing so, I'd like to see it.

Unlike the typical handgun, with the grip at the back of the gun, the guns with the grip amidships, and especially guns with a heavy bolt, want to rock back on the grip axis, and are not as easily held on target. Recoil is one thing, but that bolt coming back over the grip into the rear of the gun just aggravates things, making it rock back even more. If the grip were in the same spot as say a MP40, etc, it would be a different story.
__________________
"If the rule you followed brought you to this,
of what use was the rule?"

“The enemy is anybody who's going to get you killed, no matter which side he is on.” - Joseph Heller
AK103K is offline  
Old January 16, 2017, 07:55 PM   #89
jmorris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 22, 2006
Posts: 2,460
Quote:
As I said above, it all depends on how you're shooting them.
Ok, how would one have to be shooting one for the safest place to be is where you have it aimed?
jmorris is offline  
Old January 16, 2017, 08:00 PM   #90
AK103K
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2001
Posts: 9,533
Like they do on TV, one handed, no stock, and a mag dump, and even just a "real" one.
__________________
"If the rule you followed brought you to this,
of what use was the rule?"

“The enemy is anybody who's going to get you killed, no matter which side he is on.” - Joseph Heller
AK103K is offline  
Old January 16, 2017, 08:05 PM   #91
jmorris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 22, 2006
Posts: 2,460
You are kidding right?

When you shot up the ceiling, that's where the first bullet impacted?

Here you go. Googled "Mac 10 one handed" and this video of a kid that doesn't even know how to stand came up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM_vDFKljKU

Would you feel safe where he was aiming?
jmorris is offline  
Old January 16, 2017, 08:38 PM   #92
AK103K
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2001
Posts: 9,533
What can I say, he's a super stud.

Did you actually look at what he hit, or more specifically, where he was hitting, assuming he was aiming at "something".

And no, I wouldn't want to be in front of one, in any fashion.

Historically, in things like drive bys, and shootings of the type by people who are trigger pullers and really aren't shooters, it's usually the person who is being shot at, that "seems" to be in the safest place, and often walks away without a scratch. Hence the "cliche" above.


I honestly can't remember where my first rounds went, but I don't think I hit the target at 10 yards with them. Hitting the ceiling was distraction enough, and I didn't see the point in continuing to use that method. I like to hit what I shoot at.

"Usually" when you see people shooting like that, you don't see what they actually did, other than make noise. Try shooting a realistic course of fire like that, and see how you do.
__________________
"If the rule you followed brought you to this,
of what use was the rule?"

“The enemy is anybody who's going to get you killed, no matter which side he is on.” - Joseph Heller
AK103K is offline  
Old January 16, 2017, 08:53 PM   #93
jmorris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 22, 2006
Posts: 2,460
Quote:
Did you actually look at what he hit, or more specifically, where he was hitting, assuming he was aiming at "something".
No, I wasn't there and don't even know the guy. I just added the link to show a technique or lack of one that would keep ceilings save around your MAC.

Quote:
Without the stock/muzzle device, not so much. The only time I ever put rounds into the ceiling at an indoor range, was with my MAC with the stock collapsed. If you have a technique that can keep it from doing so, I'd like to see it.
jmorris is offline  
Old January 17, 2017, 08:56 AM   #94
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 10,322
Quote:
No, I wasn't there and don't even know the guy. I just added the link to show a technique or lack of one that would keep ceilings save around your MAC.
If you watch the video, he was aiming at a wood pile. While, his shot were not well grouped and his technique was "sloppy" at best, his shots all hit the ground and there was surprisingly little muzzle rise.

IMHO, full auto is a tool, one that can be very effective in certain limited situation if you have practiced a lot and know what you are doing.

Watching a video of a kid who fires a M10 for the first time is no different that watching a video of an untrained youth firing a scoped 30-06 for the first time; or a 12 gauge for the first time.
Skans is offline  
Old January 17, 2017, 11:24 AM   #95
jmorris
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 22, 2006
Posts: 2,460
I agree, it was just the first example I came across that showed that they are not some uncontrollable beast that sprays bullets in every direction except where the shooter intended them to go. However, a guy that doesn't really know what he is doing might even be a better example vs someone who has BTDT.
jmorris is offline  
Old January 17, 2017, 12:27 PM   #96
johnwilliamson062
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 9,332
Quote:
...or the actual machine gun has no practical use for most civilians in a self defense situation.
Quote:
The military uses them as offensive weapons
A real machine gun is pretty useful for defensive purposes. Even light machine guns aren't that mobile. I remember a Marine complaining about how he was forced to carry the M240B around on patrol, but whenever assaulting a position the Lt. would have someone else take it. At first I thought it was punishment, but then I realized carrying the thing around wore him out a good bit, even if he would never admit it, and when assaulting the Lt. wanted someone fresh to be toting it.
__________________
$0 of an NRA membership goes to legislative action or court battles. Not a dime. Only money contributed to the NRA-ILA or NRA-PVF. Second Amendment Foundation is a solid alternative.
First Shotgun Thread First Rifle Thread First Pistol Thread
johnwilliamson062 is online now  
Old January 20, 2017, 11:08 AM   #97
stonewall50
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 497
Just my 2 cents even though I've never shot more than semi...3 round burst is probably superior in anything other than squad support. Accurate rounds are more important than misses.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
stonewall50 is offline  
Old January 20, 2017, 12:22 PM   #98
TRX
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 24, 2008
Posts: 209
Sure, I have the wire "stock" for my M-11, such as it is. It's in the box with the cleaning rod and owner's manual, where it has been since 1983.

If I'd wanted a full-size SMG I would have bought an Uzi. The M-11 is about the same size as a double-stack .45; I can drop it in a coat pocket or carry it in a shoulder holster.

My wife reloads .380 for it, a thousand rounds at a time. She's a demon at a single-stage press.
TRX is offline  
Old Today, 07:17 PM   #99
Satchmoeddie
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 21, 2008
Posts: 5
At this time, full auto has no place off the battlefield, or shooting range.

I have seen all manner of full auto weapons marketed toward police from the ridiculous .22LR 180 Carbine in the early 1970s to the Glock 18. We do not need anyone spraying bullets around our city streets for any reason at all. It's dangerous, wasteful, and just plain stupid. 3 round burst options were instituted for armies that use lots of drafted conscripts, to help them conserve ammo. A true soldier with proper training will know how to fire 3 round bursts with a full auto machine gun, or sub-machine gun. Some weapons with high rates of fire will result in 3-5 round bursts, but unless there is a need for grazing fire, there is no need for full auto. In self defense there is surely no need for full auto. There is no need for full auto in police work either, unless there is some rare occasion where maybe an armed group is hold up in some rural compound, and even then the use of full auto is folly. If Waco, and Ruby Ridge were not good enough examples of how to do things the wrong way, why would we need full auto? Time and isolation will eventually take their toll. Full auto is kind of fun, if you have the money for ammo, but eventually, it does get kind of old, tedious and boring. After a while, shooting full auto ceases to be fun. Trust me! Full auto suppressed from the Tavor is pure torture. The gas discharge is right in your face, for crying out loud. I am not being over run by a platoon of enemy soldiers, nor do I think it is likely to ever happen, so why would I need full auto? I have seen some full auto shotguns used for riot control, bouncing wooden or rubber bullets off the tarmac into people, but that is also dangerous and borderline stupid. High pressure water through a monitor nozzle (AKA a water canon) works as equally well, with far fewer fatalities, or collateral damage. Should swarms of drones start to be used to attack & harass people, full auto has no place on the streets or in the home. If you want to lose a wrongful death civil suit for defending yourself, I can see no better way to hang yourself than using a fully automatic weapon.
Satchmoeddie is offline  
Old Today, 07:59 PM   #100
Tinbucket
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 17, 2015
Posts: 202
Full Auto of any real use?

I'm hearing the same stuff Nannies say about our little near 700 hp German car.
You don't need that. there is nowhere you can give it any pedal.
It's a sin. You got a pay 1800 gas guzzler tax.
You can't have because I don't want you to have it, is waht they are realy saying.
Tinbucket is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:17 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2016 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.21705 seconds with 7 queries