ER Shaw Barrels?

[old roper]

Gunsmith posted this "So ER Shaw can and does make barrels that shoot super well, but not every barrel is outstanding. Every barrel is good, but not every one is great"

Think of the guy that doesn't get that outstanding barrel or the great barrel.

I would think a gunsmith that use those type barrels are not doing any favors for their customer when you can buy a barrel that all customer get a great barrel. But you get what you pay for.

[salt and battery]

old Mississippi you are right. to me hammer forged barrels can hang in there with match rifle barrels. Ruger has the excellent floating bolthead and barrel nut copied from savage but now has better barrels. The ruger American predator I just saw for $299 in 260 rem. can you imagine that price. they are shooting those along with expensive custom rifles and not seeing much difference

[FrankenMauser]

Ruger has the excellent floating bolthead and barrel nut copied from savage but now has better barrels.

Barrel nuts, in various forms, have been in use since the 1700s.
It wasn't a new idea a century ago; and it wasn't a new idea when Savage did it it 1957.

And if you really do believe that it was an innovative, new idea that was ripped off from Savage (fifty years later! ), then you're still pointing your finger in the wrong direction. The first company to "go big" with a "Savage style" barrel nut in the latest generation of budget rifles was Marlin with the XL7 in 2008 (the receiver of which does not appear to be so, but actually has more in common with a Winchester Model 70, than a Savage ).

[Stats Shooter]

. Ruger has the excellent floating bolthead and barrel nut copied from savage but now has better barrels. The ruger American predator I just saw for $299 in 260 rem. can you imagine that price. they are shooting those along with expensive custom rifles and not seeing much difference

I'm not sure about the years, but for a while, Ruger stopped making their barrels and got rid of the production facilities. During that time, no one I knew would buy a Ruger because the barrels were noticeably worse than Savage, Remmington, Browning, at basically the same retail prices. However a decade or so ago, Ruger began making barrels again "in house" so to speak and when they did , they decided rather than sticking with the standard button rifled barrels, they would go the hammer forged route.
Button rifled barrels can be every bit as accurate as hammer forged....It's just that with hammer forged barrels , odds are much lower that you will get a bad one. Also, they are supposedly more durable as they are work hardened but I don't have any data to back that up.

[RC20]

I would guess that was the late 70s or early 80s.

My brother got what he thinks might have been a Wilson on a 7mm.

That gun (and he) could shoot, tack driver.

I had one as well, 1.5 inch no matter what it did. Good enough for hunting.

Hammer forged are fine, more consistent , but you have to do more to them than just hammer them to get the best.

Basically its a costly investment and you need to have a large output do make it work.

I would guess Savage stays with button as they have the setup and the investment would not pencil out.

Match shooters get the cut rifled barrels, I don't know if you can make a Hammer forged that good or not. Its contrary to the reason for a Hammer forged. They are after a consitant but not necsiarly tack driving product.

Europe uses a lot of Hammer Forged, but they also do a lot more finish work inisd the barrel.

Not a clue what Ruger is going.

As for the Nut.

No matter how far back it goes, the nut was used on the Ma Duce in WWII for ease head space (not sure what the Germans used on the MG42 etc)

The man who ran the production for WWII 50 cal took that concept to Savage.

No one else was using it at the time (military aside and for them it had nothing to do accuracy, it was a quick switch hot barrel issue and the needed head space)


So for all practical purposes, Savage was the one that made it a mainstay and people are copying them now.

So as far as I am concerned Savage gets full credit for using that for sporting rifles when everyone else was using the same screw on to a witness mark the military used on their bolt actions.

[FrankenMauser]

Ruger barrel timeline, for reference:

As for the M77 versus the M77 Mk II...
Ruger used contractors for barrels during most of the years that the original, tang safety, M77 was in production. They generally stuck with Douglas barrels from '67-'73, and Wilson barrels from '73-'91, with other contractors filling in when demand was high. So, performance was all over the map. Wilson barrels, in particular, earned a reputation for printing shotgun patterns, and being insanely terrible when warm.

The M77 Mk II, however, has used Ruger's own (in-house) hammer-forged barrels since 1991. They may not be on par with high end match-winning barrels, but most have done well, and they're pretty consistent across-the-board.

Wilson barrels can be found on tang safety 77s with prefixes 79, 770, 771, 772, and 773. (773 also including the transition to hammer forged, but there weren't many.)
Douglas barrels can be found on tang safety 77s with no prefix (just the serial number, up to 4 digits), or prefixes 70 through 77 (skipping 76).

Tang safety 77s with prefix 78 were special runs, generally reserved for varmint, target, or special edition builds. Because some of these actions were used to build rifles from the early '80s into the mid-nineties, they can have any of the barrels installed on them. ...And Ruger almost never gives out ship dates for 78-prefix rifles, so trying to identify the barrel won't happen.

Mk IIs with the 780 prefix included transition time from Wilson to Ruger barrels. They should be avoided, unless you just want the action.
The rest of the Mk IIs have the best barrels Ruger has put on their rifles - with quality improving as time passed.

Summary (for 77s):
Douglas from '67-'73
Wilson from '73-'91
Ruger hammer-forged from '91-Current
Other contracts filled in where needed, if Wilson or Douglas couldn't meet demand.

[Stats Shooter]

. Summary (for 77s):
Douglas from '67-'73
Wilson from '73-'91
Ruger hammer-forged from '91-Current
Other contracts filled in where needed, if Wilson or Douglas couldn't meet demand.

Great summary Frankinmauser,
The question I have though is that: I don't think they farm their barrels out at all anymore right? They have that new facility in North Carolina and also their New England facility. So they are hammer forging everything, and when I talked to them on the phone a while back about one of my AR's they said they are making their AR barrels, 10/22 , and some others in NC with the more high end bolt action rifles and the American line up north.

[reynolds357]

The barrel nut is not a positive feature from a consumer standpoint. It is a cost and time saver from a manufacturing standpoint.

[supercub99]

Frankenmauser,
Mine was the Ruger M77 RC was talking about. By serial it was a 1974 tang safety production which is when I bought it. Per date it would have a Wilson but it shot extremely accurate with a hand load I developed on the first try. I hunted with that rifle for 42 yrs and just recently sold it. It had a semi bull barrel profile and wouldn't fit a replacement Ruger stock I had to buy when I broke it at the wrist when I flipped a 4 wheeler. The replacement stock was from the same era, a take off a gunsmith had, he had 50 or more. I had to open up the barrel channel to take the barrel. The gun was factory as I bought new and never gave it much thought until the last few years.

[salt and battery]

Reynolds 357 how do you figure the barrel nut is not good for the consumer? it allows for almost match grade accuracy and save the buyer a lot of money in building costs for savage

[FrankenMauser]

Mississippi;
I'm not sure what they're doing now.
I know that they make the majority of their own barrels. However, there was a discussion here last year, in which a few people claimed that the Ruger American was getting contract barrels.

I don't necessarily believe it, but you never know...

[std7mag]

Well, I just went to E.R. Shaw's retail store yesterday to pick up a barrel for a Savage. Got a 24" polished, blued, with radius crown in 250 Savage. Was on their "special" listing on the website. Normally $225, picked it up for $120.

Planning a custom build with it for a hunting rifle.

While there I checked out a couple of their Mark VII rifles. One was polished stainless, fluted, laminate stock, muzzle brake. Flutes are hand painted. Polish was nicely done. Fit and finish were really nice. Rifles has good "feel" to them. On the polished stainless, you could not see where the line was for the screw on muzzle brake. Believe me, we looked!!

Based on Savage action, trued up, Savage bolt body, with the rest of the parts made in house. They don't use the Savage nut system. (makes it more pleasing to look at, but I imagine more time consuming to set headspace.)

Will fill you in more on the build. Looking for a Savage/Stevens in 308 as a donar action now...

[RC20]

The barrel nut is not a positive feature from a consumer standpoint. It is a cost and time saver from a manufacturing standpoint.

I will strongly disagree on two counts.

1. It kept the price down and Savage had that market for a long time until others work up and realized what they were leaving on the table.
Its still not only serving well, both it and the acu trigger are being copied.

2. It makes for a very easy to customize system. If you look at the huge quantity of Savage pre made barrels that gives you some idea of how popular it is to do that.
Many do it themselves and a lot of satisfaction in that as well as not having to take, discuss and work out with a gun smith to do it.

[reynolds357]

Salt and battery, the nut does not "provide near match grade accuracy." The nut allows Savage to never put a barrel back into the lathe to adjust head space. The nut does not improve accuracy. The nut makes the rifle easy to head space. Most Savage match rifles lose the nut when they get rebarreled.

[Stats Shooter]

Savage does two things which help overcome small machining errors. The barrel nut thing already discussed, and the "floating" bolt head which makes it so that blueprinting and lapping the recoil lug isn't necessary.....At least that's what Savage says.

All I know is that it makes it possible for a novice with a set of foster gauges to do a drop-in rebarrel of a Savage action.

[reynolds357]

Mississippi, it works pretty well. Savage does it to lower their production costs; they do not do it to build a better rifle. I have my fair share of Savage rifles. When they get rebarreled, the nut gets tossed in the trash.

[FrankenMauser]

The Savage bolt only "floats" on one axis.

While I won't argue that it might eliminate the problem in one direction, it does nothing if looked at 90 degrees out.



In my opinion, it's just a cost-cutting measure.

[RC20]

Mississippi, it works pretty well. Savage does it to lower their production costs; they do not do it to build a better rifle. I have my fair share of Savage rifles. When they get rebarreled, the nut gets tossed in the trash.

I think you are extrapolating from a group of one to all.

Most shooters that work on the Savage themselves do use the nut.

Savage lowered their production costs as much as they could so they could put out an accurate rifle. Call it how you want, its a benefit in off the shelf and its certainly a benefit for people who do their own barrels.

Team Savage is very competitive with their factory rifles.

First they are not Tubbs or Salazare.

Secondly, most of us are not either!

The floating bolt head is not as good as a blueprinted, but again its better than 99.9% can shoot.

No question that Salazare would beat my butt with my equipment when I was using his, with one hand behind his back.

[Hunter Customs]

No question that Salazare would beat my butt with my equipment when I was using his, with one hand behind his back.

RC20, very good point.
I've said it over and over, it's not the arrow it's the indian.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter

[Stats Shooter]

I want to thank you all for the great feedback. Every product seems to have a niche. Looks like ER Shaw Barrels appeals to the budget rifle, or truck gun, or rugged condition rifle...or at least that is what I would put it on. .Kind of like my 870 wing master shotgun, which gets beat around and abused but is my primary hunting shotgun. But I also have a very nice Beretta I shoot trap with.

I decided to go with a 28" shilen stainless match grade barrel...S8 (bull ) contour for my .300 win mag. The lead time is 2 months and I can't wait to try it.

In the end I just figured the extra $200 was worth it for a guaranteed barrel and made to the specifics I wanted

Thanks guys....This is a good fourm.

[std7mag]

Mississippi,

No, you can't go much wrong with a Shilen barrel. Shilen is the one that showed Bergara how to do things.

I have heard some grumbling about winning matches and such with a Shaw barrel. It's been done, and so has Hart, Pac-Nor, Bertlien, and almost every other barrel manufacturer out there.
It's the whole "any given day" thing.

Are your odds better with the Shilen? Maybe...

I'll keep my extra $200 and load more ammo for more trigger time.

But that's just me.

[reynolds357]

RC20, I thought the nuts were wonderful as well. Then I decided to build one without the nut. No going back. Build your next Savage nutless and see if you do not pick up just a tick of accuracy.

[5whiskey]

Shilen makes exceptional barrels and I really hope that you get the accuracy you're looking for. Even Shilen, however, will not offer service if the rifle shoots 1/3moa and not 1/8th.

Looks like ER Shaw Barrels appeals to the budget rifle, or truck gun, or rugged condition rifle

Wouldn't quite lump ER Shaw in that category. I only have one barrel from ER Shaw, but it was a solid 1/2 moa shooter. 10 years ago on this forum a 1/2 moa (all day every day) rifle would be a gold standard to anyone but a bench shooter.

At any rate, you made the right decision for the accuracy you seek. While I wouldn't give ER Shaw quite "truck gun" status, they aren't widely used in the world of people who shoot .125" groups at 100 yards.

[Stats Shooter]

5whisky:

I realize 1/8 MOA is demanding. I can live with 0.25" at 100 yards or even 0.33" at 100 yards.
I am a hand loader, with my .300 wm I bump the shoulder back only 3 thousandths and usually jump about .010. I trickle each charge and a slew of other things to try and wring everything I can out of a gun.......Oh and I actually practice shooting ALOT..... Mostly doping rounds, and desperately trying to get better at wind calling. ( I threw a couple 8 point shots in a shoot in December due to swirling winds )

But I set the bar high because if I set the bar at 1/2 moa, then it's likely 1/2 moa is exactly what I will achieve.

And I'm also not trying to be insulting by saying truck gun or truck rifle....A truck rifle is reliable, plenty accurate, and durable. It's just that, you arnt going to put a $2500 rifle behind the seat to bounce around when a Ruger American rifle (Which I have one of) will do just fine at a cost of $400 and if it gets scratched, or a ding, you arnt going to cry provided it still functions as usual.

[5whiskey]

I guess that's fair enough, I understand your explanation. I hope the Shilen does well for you. I agree that you made the right choice, and there is a much better chance of you being satisfied with a Shilen than something less... and most everyone can agree that Shaw makes decent barrels, but Shilen they aren't.