Wads - Black Powder vs. Smokeless

jolasa · September 10, 2011, 11:10 AM

Why is it that black powder cartridges need a wad over the powder, but smokeless powder does not need a wad over the powder?

JonS

GP100man · September 10, 2011, 12:31 PM

Some use the wads to take up space on a given load as there has to be no air space in holy black loads , but most use em to help lube the bore for the next shot & softening the fouling .

I have some exp in the holy black, but maybe someone will chime in with a better answer , just maybe .

brickeyee · September 10, 2011, 12:56 PM

If there is a gap between the black powder and the bullet base there is a chance of an explosion that can destroy the gun.

Many BP cartridges are VERY full, and the powder is compressed in a separate step before seating the bullet.

If there is any room wads are used to take up the space.

Wads can also be deigned into the load to provide lubrication.

Ideal Tool · September 10, 2011, 07:33 PM

Hello, jolasa. Where did you hear smokeless loads don't need a wad? There have been numerous write-ups in Handloader by Mike Venterino on wad use with both black and smokeless. The main reason with smokeless is if using a stick type powder like 4895 or 3031, these grains can impact bullet base and cause inaccuracy. That said, I have found the use of any wad in my .38-55 Win. degrades accuracy..But then I am using IMR4227, which is pretty fine. In all cases (pun intended), I insert wad flush with case mouth..and let nothing but the bullet base push it into case, to it's place..this insures no space between wad & bullet base.

jolasa · September 16, 2011, 02:31 PM

But if use wad with smokeless, powder does not fill the cartridge, so where does wad go?

On top of powder (air gap above wad and below bullet)?

Behind bullet (air gap above powder and below wad)?

Ideal Tool · September 16, 2011, 04:03 PM

Hello, jolasa. I have heard some guys putting wad down on powder, some partway down.. Me? I don't trust that wad slamming into bullet base as a secondary projectile. There have been many cases or chamber ringing & it is not clearly understood just what causes this. I myself have given up on fillers..not wads..they are still used but firmly against bullet base. I was experimenting with an extra light .40 bullet..275gr. in a .40-70 str. (2 1/2") Sharps. Using a light charge of fast burning powder a 1gr. tuft of Kapok was pulled out to resemble a cigar..this was carefully inserted over powder..but in no way compressed..seating the bullet & wad pushed it down into case.
When fired, bullet left bore, but right in front of chamber was this Kapok..now compressed into a .40 wad 3/8" thick. How did this wad end up at the breech end of a 34" long barrel AFTER the bullet left bore? What if next round had run over this wad..It couldn't be very good for the bore!
That was the last time I ever used a filler over smokeless.

Hammerhead · September 16, 2011, 07:49 PM

According to Paco Kelly you should never push the wad down onto the powder with smokeless. I put them in the case mouth and let the bullet seat them. I use them sometimes in .357 and .44 spl lead loads to reduce smoke and they keep the lube from migrating to the powder charge if it melts in a hot car or ammo can. They also seem to keep the gun cleaner, esp. when used with liquid alox.
I use .060" thick vegetable fiber wads.

September 10, 2011, 11:10 AM	#1
jolasa Member Join Date: September 29, 2010 Location: Bay Area, California Posts: 60	Wads - Black Powder vs. Smokeless Why is it that black powder cartridges need a wad over the powder, but smokeless powder does not need a wad over the powder? JonS

September 10, 2011, 12:31 PM	#2
GP100man Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2007 Location: Tabor City , NC. Posts: 1,969	Some use the wads to take up space on a given load as there has to be no air space in holy black loads , but most use em to help lube the bore for the next shot & softening the fouling . I have some exp in the holy black, but maybe someone will chime in with a better answer , just maybe . __________________ GP100man

September 10, 2011, 12:56 PM	#3
brickeyee Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Posts: 3,351	If there is a gap between the black powder and the bullet base there is a chance of an explosion that can destroy the gun. Many BP cartridges are VERY full, and the powder is compressed in a separate step before seating the bullet. If there is any room wads are used to take up the space. Wads can also be deigned into the load to provide lubrication.

September 10, 2011, 07:33 PM	#4
Ideal Tool Junior member Join Date: October 6, 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,080	Hello, jolasa. Where did you hear smokeless loads don't need a wad? There have been numerous write-ups in Handloader by Mike Venterino on wad use with both black and smokeless. The main reason with smokeless is if using a stick type powder like 4895 or 3031, these grains can impact bullet base and cause inaccuracy. That said, I have found the use of any wad in my .38-55 Win. degrades accuracy..But then I am using IMR4227, which is pretty fine. In all cases (pun intended), I insert wad flush with case mouth..and let nothing but the bullet base push it into case, to it's place..this insures no space between wad & bullet base.

September 16, 2011, 02:31 PM	#5
jolasa Member Join Date: September 29, 2010 Location: Bay Area, California Posts: 60	But if use wad with smokeless, powder does not fill the cartridge, so where does wad go? On top of powder (air gap above wad and below bullet)? Behind bullet (air gap above powder and below wad)?

September 16, 2011, 04:03 PM	#6
Ideal Tool Junior member Join Date: October 6, 2010 Location: Michigan Posts: 1,080	Hello, jolasa. I have heard some guys putting wad down on powder, some partway down.. Me? I don't trust that wad slamming into bullet base as a secondary projectile. There have been many cases or chamber ringing & it is not clearly understood just what causes this. I myself have given up on fillers..not wads..they are still used but firmly against bullet base. I was experimenting with an extra light .40 bullet..275gr. in a .40-70 str. (2 1/2") Sharps. Using a light charge of fast burning powder a 1gr. tuft of Kapok was pulled out to resemble a cigar..this was carefully inserted over powder..but in no way compressed..seating the bullet & wad pushed it down into case. When fired, bullet left bore, but right in front of chamber was this Kapok..now compressed into a .40 wad 3/8" thick. How did this wad end up at the breech end of a 34" long barrel AFTER the bullet left bore? What if next round had run over this wad..It couldn't be very good for the bore! That was the last time I ever used a filler over smokeless.

September 16, 2011, 07:49 PM	#7
Hammerhead Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2004 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,432	According to Paco Kelly you should never push the wad down onto the powder with smokeless. I put them in the case mouth and let the bullet seat them. I use them sometimes in .357 and .44 spl lead loads to reduce smoke and they keep the lube from migrating to the powder charge if it melts in a hot car or ammo can. They also seem to keep the gun cleaner, esp. when used with liquid alox. I use .060" thick vegetable fiber wads.