Can I resize Laser Cast 158gr lswc's?

ac700wildcat · July 15, 2009, 06:52 PM

To start with, I've been getting some leading with these bullets and that is what lead me to slug my barrel. I slugged my barrel on my Ruger Blackhawk 357mag and the biggest measurement I can get is .357. The box of Laser Cast bullets I have say they are .358, which from what I have read, should be fine. In measuring some of the bullets, they actually vary from .359-.360. That would explain my leading issue. I have probably 430 of these bullets left and would like to be able to use them up without the leading issue and am wondering if I can resize them and what I need to do that? I think I'll contact the bullet company to see what they say as well.

Thanks,
Matt

velocette · July 15, 2009, 07:08 PM

Before you resize, try using some of the Lee liquid Alox bullet lubricant. It essentially stopped bore leading in all of my revolvers and pistols.

Roger

ThomasT · July 15, 2009, 07:13 PM

what load are you using? Are you using a magnum primer? Elmer Keith stated that magnum primers will melt the bullets base and cause leading.

Make sure your barrel is clear of copper fouling. It needs to be squeaky clean before you fire lead. My GP100 would lead foul until I had fired about 500 rounds through it. It slicked up from use and barely ever shows any lead now. It is stainless and was not as smooth as a blued gun.

Without a gas check I wouldn't push these bullets too hard either. Use midrange loads with faster powders. I have had good luck with the LC bullets. I have had better luck with my home cast bullets also.

Randy 1911 · July 15, 2009, 07:43 PM

Like said before. What load and caliber are you using? Is it 38 Spl or 357 Mag. With lead bullets you need to keep your veloicities under 1000 fps and preferably 900 fps. We need more info to really do a good job of helping you. I have shot a lot of bullets that measured .359-.360 with no leading.

Check the diameter of your cylinder throats. If they are under .357 they could be swagging your bullets too small and they are not sealing your bore. That would allow gas cutting of the bullet in the barrel and cause leading.

Leading is not that hard to remove. Get some copper Chor-Boy scrubbing pads and cut a small piece off and wrap it around you bore brush. The lead will quickly come out.

LHB1 · July 15, 2009, 09:38 PM

Quote: "Can I resize Laser Cast 158gr lswc's? "

Matt,
Yes, you can IF you or a friend has a lubrizer and sizing die in .357". You can apply more lube at the same time if needed. This may not solve the leading problem however. The load or your barrel or your barrel cleaning techniques may be the culprit here as others have posted. I recommend thoroughly cleaning the barrel before shooting cast lead bullets, especially if you have previously fired jacketed bullets. Jacketed bullets leave tiny copper fragments/residue in the barrel which will increase leading from cast lead bullets.

LB

ac700wildcat · July 16, 2009, 05:29 AM

The load that I'm working with is a magnum load with alliant 2400 and a cci spm primer. Everything that I have read about these laser cast bullets says that they are made to be driven hard without leading. I did a lot of reading about them before I decided to get them, because the load I'm working up is intended to be used for deer season this coming fall.

The barrel should have been very clean before I started shooting the bullets, but I can run something through it that will make sure there is no copper left. The gun is a 1978 model and has a lot of rounds through it, so the bore should be fairly smoothed out. As far as my cleaning the leading out of the barrel, I started with a 45 minute soak of Hoppe's followed by running a bronze brush through the barrel quite a few times, and then tight fitting patches. After that I started using kroil by running a patch soaked in it through and letting it soak overnight. I brushed the bore with kroil on it and patched it out multiple times yesterday after I got up, until I finally had a clean barrel.

I have never shot lead before, so its a new experience to me. Up until now I have only used jacketed bullets. The bullets I have don't have any lube on the actual surface of the bullet. The lube is only in the lube ring. Is that a problem?

Once I get off of here I'm going to give the barrel another soak with some Hoppes to make sure its squeaky clean. I'll also load a handful of these bullets with some light 38 special rounds and see if the leading problem is still there. Sorry for the long read and thanks for the help and suggestions so far.

Sport45 · July 16, 2009, 08:14 AM

On a revolver the diameter of the cylinder throats is probably more important than the barrels bore diameter. If the throats are smaller than the bore the bullets will be swaged down and you'll get leading now matter what sie your bullets are.

Try pushing some of the cast bullets through the throats. It should be snug, but noyt so tight you can't push them through by hand.

ac700wildcat · July 16, 2009, 09:07 AM

The cast bullets don't push through at all by hand. I tried some jacketed bullets that pushed through just fine.

mikld · July 16, 2009, 01:23 PM

As long as the cartridges chamber freely, .360" bullets should not be a problem. It sounds like your cylinder throats may be swaging down the bullet as it passes, making it essentially undersize for your bore. Use the same slugging process, and a micrometer to measure the throat diameter. Should be larger than bore diameter, same size or slightly larger (.001") than bullet diameter. You may need to ream the throats.

Also bullet manufacturers generally use lube that is too hard; so it stays in place during shipping/handling. The liquid alox is a good idea, I use it on T/L and regular lube groove bullets.

LHB1 · July 16, 2009, 05:27 PM

Quote: "I have never shot lead before, so its a new experience to me. Up until now I have only used jacketed bullets. The bullets I have don't have any lube on the actual surface of the bullet. The lube is only in the lube ring. Is that a problem?"

Matt,
No, that is not a problem. That is correct and normal for typical cast lead bullets. What velocity are you getting with your load? How many rounds before the leading shows up? Where is the leading, at the muzzle or near the throat? I load a full power load in my S&W M629 Classic revolvers (.44 Mag) using 250 gr cast lead bullets (mine) lubed with Alox lube on top of a max safe load of Win 296 powder. These loads chrono at 1400 and 1425 fps avg with Oehler 35P thru two different revolvers with 6.5" barrels. I get minimal or no leading for at least 50 rounds and only minimal muzzle leading by 75-100 rounds. Each gun and bullet/lube combo is a different situation and your results may vary. Cast bullet loads can be very persnickety sometimes. Good luck.

LB

ac700wildcat · July 16, 2009, 05:39 PM

LHB1, I'm not sure on the velocity yet. I haven't shot them across my chronograph yet. A few nights ago I had thirty rounds loaded to test and shot them all. The loads were 14.6, 14.8, and 15 grains of 2400 over a cci magnum primer, so they should be moving pretty good out of my 6.5" Blackhawk. Most of the leading is at the breech end with pretty much none at the muzzle end.

LHB1 · July 16, 2009, 06:28 PM

Quote: " Most of the leading is at the breech end with pretty much none at the muzzle end. "

Matt,
Leading near muzzle is typically from insufficient lube or too high velocity. Leading near throat can be caused by one or more of:
- wrong diameter bullet (too large must be swaged down by throat or barrel and too small will let gas blow by before bullet seals throat/barrel)
- rough barrel throat
- excessive throat diameter compared to barrel diameter
- wrong bullet alloy (too hard hinders bullet seal and too soft mushes badly).

If you can, try loading different diameters of cast bullets (.357, .358) in your gun with same load in all to see if that makes a difference. Good luck.

LB

ac700wildcat · July 16, 2009, 06:55 PM

Here is what I just tried. I also slugged the cylinder chambers and after that the lead that I used to slug them fit through the chambers snug and were able to be pushed through by hand. After that I tried pushing them into the barrel from both ends and they wouldn't go. That should eliminate the bullets being too small once they hit the barrel.

I did manage to find some 158gr hornady fp xtp's today and ordered them. They were what I originally wanted, but could never find. At least with them I won't have to worry about the leading issue. I'd still like to use the lead for practice tho and need to figure this out.

Sport45 · July 16, 2009, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Here is what I just tried. I also slugged the cylinder chambers and after that the lead that I used to slug them fit through the chambers snug and were able to be pushed through by hand. After that I tried pushing them into the barrel from both ends and they wouldn't go. That should eliminate the bullets being too small once they hit the barrel.

No, that just tells you the throat diameter is larger than the land diameter as it just about has to be. You want the throat diameter to be a tad bigger than the groove diameter. If the throats are too small the bullet will enter the barrel too small. Hot gasses flow around the bullet cutting lead and depositing it in the grooves.

ThomasT · July 16, 2009, 09:34 PM

If you will reread the third post I stated that you do not need a magnum primer. It is not recommended by Alliant. Brian Pearce of Handloader Magazine has said the same thing in several of his articles dealing with 2400 and lead bullets.

Also if you are getting a "frosting" of lead that is normal and is not real leading. And Hoppes ain't so hot on lead removal. None of the chemicals are. But if it were me I would find some Barnes CR-10 and try that. The Kriol is good and will get under the lead and make it easier to remove.

You might try some of the same loads with a standard primer. I bet it fixes your problem.

ac700wildcat · July 16, 2009, 10:25 PM

Sorry, I read the part about the magnum primer and must have forgotten about it. How does this sound? Tonight I'll load up some light 38 special loads with clays and some magnum loads with the 2400 and a regular cci small pistol primer and try them out tomorrow to see what happens.

I kinda figured the Hoppes didn't do much for the lead and the kroil would probably do a better job of loosening it up. I pretty much just used the hoppes to get some powder out of there before going after the lead. Other than those two chemicals I have some tipton cleaner, some foaming bore cleaner, clp, and some birchwood casey bore scrubber. The foaming stuff and the clp definitely won't touch the lead, but the tipton cleaner says it cleans lead, so that might help some if I get leading tomorrow.

I must have had a brain fart when I was typing my last post. Of course the slug from the cylinder wouldn't go through the barrel for just the reasons sport45 said.

Sport45 · July 16, 2009, 10:47 PM

The easiest way I've found to get lead out of a barrel is to wrap a bit of fabric from a copper pot scrubber around a worn bore brush and saw it back and forth through the barrel about a dozen times.

I doubt the magnum primer has as much to do with your leading problem as the relative sizes of the throat, bore, and bullets.

bullet >/= throat > bore is correct.

The hardness of the bullet has some significance with the .38spcl loads needing a softer bullet than the .357mag loads. A mid-strength cast bullet can be made to work with both if the dimensions are right.

Doodlebugger45 · July 16, 2009, 10:51 PM

Yep that's the cool thing about 2400 powder. You don't use magnum primers with it but it performs about as good as the powders that need the magnum primers. But I can't find any of it here. I got tired of loading milder loads using Unique or 231 and was looking for 2400 lately since I didn't have any magnum primers. No luck with finding 2400. But I found 296 with no problem and amazingly enough I found magnum primers too so I guess I'm set. But I still want some 2400. It's kind of legendary stuff.

ac700wildcat · July 19, 2009, 06:37 AM

Today I shot 10 rounds of these bullets over 2.9 grains of clays and a regular small pistol primer and they didn't seem to lead. After those, I put 20 rounds over 14.9 grains of 2400 and a regular small pistol primer and got quite a bit of leading. The lead did seem to come out a bit easier this time tho. I'm loading up another 50 of the 38 special load today to run through it to see if they lead or not. I don't think the 10 rounds that I loaded the other day is enough of an indicator.

July 15, 2009, 06:52 PM	#1
ac700wildcat Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2008 Location: ND Posts: 239	Can I resize Laser Cast 158gr lswc's? To start with, I've been getting some leading with these bullets and that is what lead me to slug my barrel. I slugged my barrel on my Ruger Blackhawk 357mag and the biggest measurement I can get is .357. The box of Laser Cast bullets I have say they are .358, which from what I have read, should be fine. In measuring some of the bullets, they actually vary from .359-.360. That would explain my leading issue. I have probably 430 of these bullets left and would like to be able to use them up without the leading issue and am wondering if I can resize them and what I need to do that? I think I'll contact the bullet company to see what they say as well. Thanks, Matt

July 15, 2009, 07:08 PM	#2
velocette Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 2007 Location: South Florida Posts: 924	Before you resize, try using some of the Lee liquid Alox bullet lubricant. It essentially stopped bore leading in all of my revolvers and pistols. Roger __________________ Trigger control + Breath control + Sight alignment = Gun Control. http://www.hrpclub.info/ NRA Smallbore Prone Master, High Power Master

July 15, 2009, 07:43 PM	#4
Randy 1911 Senior Member Join Date: May 7, 2009 Location: Western Arkansas Posts: 273	Like said before. What load and caliber are you using? Is it 38 Spl or 357 Mag. With lead bullets you need to keep your veloicities under 1000 fps and preferably 900 fps. We need more info to really do a good job of helping you. I have shot a lot of bullets that measured .359-.360 with no leading. Check the diameter of your cylinder throats. If they are under .357 they could be swagging your bullets too small and they are not sealing your bore. That would allow gas cutting of the bullet in the barrel and cause leading. Leading is not that hard to remove. Get some copper Chor-Boy scrubbing pads and cut a small piece off and wrap it around you bore brush. The lead will quickly come out. __________________ Been Reloading 27 Years NRA Member Member Old Fort Gun Club www.ofgc.org

July 15, 2009, 09:38 PM	#5
LHB1 Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,545	Quote: "Can I resize Laser Cast 158gr lswc's? " Matt, Yes, you can IF you or a friend has a lubrizer and sizing die in .357". You can apply more lube at the same time if needed. This may not solve the leading problem however. The load or your barrel or your barrel cleaning techniques may be the culprit here as others have posted. I recommend thoroughly cleaning the barrel before shooting cast lead bullets, especially if you have previously fired jacketed bullets. Jacketed bullets leave tiny copper fragments/residue in the barrel which will increase leading from cast lead bullets. LB __________________ Good shooting and be safe. LB

July 16, 2009, 08:14 AM	#7
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	On a revolver the diameter of the cylinder throats is probably more important than the barrels bore diameter. If the throats are smaller than the bore the bullets will be swaged down and you'll get leading now matter what sie your bullets are. Try pushing some of the cast bullets through the throats. It should be snug, but noyt so tight you can't push them through by hand. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

July 15, 2009, 07:13 PM	#3
ThomasT Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,753	what load are you using? Are you using a magnum primer? Elmer Keith stated that magnum primers will melt the bullets base and cause leading. Make sure your barrel is clear of copper fouling. It needs to be squeaky clean before you fire lead. My GP100 would lead foul until I had fired about 500 rounds through it. It slicked up from use and barely ever shows any lead now. It is stainless and was not as smooth as a blued gun. Without a gas check I wouldn't push these bullets too hard either. Use midrange loads with faster powders. I have had good luck with the LC bullets. I have had better luck with my home cast bullets also.

July 16, 2009, 05:29 AM	#6
ac700wildcat Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2008 Location: ND Posts: 239	The load that I'm working with is a magnum load with alliant 2400 and a cci spm primer. Everything that I have read about these laser cast bullets says that they are made to be driven hard without leading. I did a lot of reading about them before I decided to get them, because the load I'm working up is intended to be used for deer season this coming fall. The barrel should have been very clean before I started shooting the bullets, but I can run something through it that will make sure there is no copper left. The gun is a 1978 model and has a lot of rounds through it, so the bore should be fairly smoothed out. As far as my cleaning the leading out of the barrel, I started with a 45 minute soak of Hoppe's followed by running a bronze brush through the barrel quite a few times, and then tight fitting patches. After that I started using kroil by running a patch soaked in it through and letting it soak overnight. I brushed the bore with kroil on it and patched it out multiple times yesterday after I got up, until I finally had a clean barrel. I have never shot lead before, so its a new experience to me. Up until now I have only used jacketed bullets. The bullets I have don't have any lube on the actual surface of the bullet. The lube is only in the lube ring. Is that a problem? Once I get off of here I'm going to give the barrel another soak with some Hoppes to make sure its squeaky clean. I'll also load a handful of these bullets with some light 38 special rounds and see if the leading problem is still there. Sorry for the long read and thanks for the help and suggestions so far.

July 16, 2009, 09:07 AM	#8
ac700wildcat Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2008 Location: ND Posts: 239	The cast bullets don't push through at all by hand. I tried some jacketed bullets that pushed through just fine.

July 16, 2009, 01:23 PM	#9
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	As long as the cartridges chamber freely, .360" bullets should not be a problem. It sounds like your cylinder throats may be swaging down the bullet as it passes, making it essentially undersize for your bore. Use the same slugging process, and a micrometer to measure the throat diameter. Should be larger than bore diameter, same size or slightly larger (.001") than bullet diameter. You may need to ream the throats. Also bullet manufacturers generally use lube that is too hard; so it stays in place during shipping/handling. The liquid alox is a good idea, I use it on T/L and regular lube groove bullets. __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

July 16, 2009, 05:27 PM	#10
LHB1 Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,545	Quote: "I have never shot lead before, so its a new experience to me. Up until now I have only used jacketed bullets. The bullets I have don't have any lube on the actual surface of the bullet. The lube is only in the lube ring. Is that a problem?" Matt, No, that is not a problem. That is correct and normal for typical cast lead bullets. What velocity are you getting with your load? How many rounds before the leading shows up? Where is the leading, at the muzzle or near the throat? I load a full power load in my S&W M629 Classic revolvers (.44 Mag) using 250 gr cast lead bullets (mine) lubed with Alox lube on top of a max safe load of Win 296 powder. These loads chrono at 1400 and 1425 fps avg with Oehler 35P thru two different revolvers with 6.5" barrels. I get minimal or no leading for at least 50 rounds and only minimal muzzle leading by 75-100 rounds. Each gun and bullet/lube combo is a different situation and your results may vary. Cast bullet loads can be very persnickety sometimes. Good luck. LB __________________ Good shooting and be safe. LB

July 16, 2009, 05:39 PM	#11
ac700wildcat Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2008 Location: ND Posts: 239	LHB1, I'm not sure on the velocity yet. I haven't shot them across my chronograph yet. A few nights ago I had thirty rounds loaded to test and shot them all. The loads were 14.6, 14.8, and 15 grains of 2400 over a cci magnum primer, so they should be moving pretty good out of my 6.5" Blackhawk. Most of the leading is at the breech end with pretty much none at the muzzle end.

July 16, 2009, 06:28 PM	#12
LHB1 Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,545	Quote: " Most of the leading is at the breech end with pretty much none at the muzzle end. " Matt, Leading near muzzle is typically from insufficient lube or too high velocity. Leading near throat can be caused by one or more of: - wrong diameter bullet (too large must be swaged down by throat or barrel and too small will let gas blow by before bullet seals throat/barrel) - rough barrel throat - excessive throat diameter compared to barrel diameter - wrong bullet alloy (too hard hinders bullet seal and too soft mushes badly). If you can, try loading different diameters of cast bullets (.357, .358) in your gun with same load in all to see if that makes a difference. Good luck. LB __________________ Good shooting and be safe. LB

July 16, 2009, 06:55 PM	#13
ac700wildcat Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2008 Location: ND Posts: 239	Here is what I just tried. I also slugged the cylinder chambers and after that the lead that I used to slug them fit through the chambers snug and were able to be pushed through by hand. After that I tried pushing them into the barrel from both ends and they wouldn't go. That should eliminate the bullets being too small once they hit the barrel. I did manage to find some 158gr hornady fp xtp's today and ordered them. They were what I originally wanted, but could never find. At least with them I won't have to worry about the leading issue. I'd still like to use the lead for practice tho and need to figure this out.

July 16, 2009, 09:34 PM	#15
ThomasT Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,753	If you will reread the third post I stated that you do not need a magnum primer. It is not recommended by Alliant. Brian Pearce of Handloader Magazine has said the same thing in several of his articles dealing with 2400 and lead bullets. Also if you are getting a "frosting" of lead that is normal and is not real leading. And Hoppes ain't so hot on lead removal. None of the chemicals are. But if it were me I would find some Barnes CR-10 and try that. The Kriol is good and will get under the lead and make it easier to remove. You might try some of the same loads with a standard primer. I bet it fixes your problem.

July 16, 2009, 10:25 PM	#16
ac700wildcat Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2008 Location: ND Posts: 239	Sorry, I read the part about the magnum primer and must have forgotten about it. How does this sound? Tonight I'll load up some light 38 special loads with clays and some magnum loads with the 2400 and a regular cci small pistol primer and try them out tomorrow to see what happens. I kinda figured the Hoppes didn't do much for the lead and the kroil would probably do a better job of loosening it up. I pretty much just used the hoppes to get some powder out of there before going after the lead. Other than those two chemicals I have some tipton cleaner, some foaming bore cleaner, clp, and some birchwood casey bore scrubber. The foaming stuff and the clp definitely won't touch the lead, but the tipton cleaner says it cleans lead, so that might help some if I get leading tomorrow. I must have had a brain fart when I was typing my last post. Of course the slug from the cylinder wouldn't go through the barrel for just the reasons sport45 said.

July 16, 2009, 10:47 PM	#17
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	The easiest way I've found to get lead out of a barrel is to wrap a bit of fabric from a copper pot scrubber around a worn bore brush and saw it back and forth through the barrel about a dozen times. I doubt the magnum primer has as much to do with your leading problem as the relative sizes of the throat, bore, and bullets. bullet >/= throat > bore is correct. The hardness of the bullet has some significance with the .38spcl loads needing a softer bullet than the .357mag loads. A mid-strength cast bullet can be made to work with both if the dimensions are right. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

July 16, 2009, 10:51 PM	#18
Doodlebugger45 Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2009 Location: Wyoming Posts: 1,717	Yep that's the cool thing about 2400 powder. You don't use magnum primers with it but it performs about as good as the powders that need the magnum primers. But I can't find any of it here. I got tired of loading milder loads using Unique or 231 and was looking for 2400 lately since I didn't have any magnum primers. No luck with finding 2400. But I found 296 with no problem and amazingly enough I found magnum primers too so I guess I'm set. But I still want some 2400. It's kind of legendary stuff.

July 19, 2009, 06:37 AM	#19
ac700wildcat Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2008 Location: ND Posts: 239	Today I shot 10 rounds of these bullets over 2.9 grains of clays and a regular small pistol primer and they didn't seem to lead. After those, I put 20 rounds over 14.9 grains of 2400 and a regular small pistol primer and got quite a bit of leading. The lead did seem to come out a bit easier this time tho. I'm loading up another 50 of the 38 special load today to run through it to see if they lead or not. I don't think the 10 rounds that I loaded the other day is enough of an indicator.