Hollow point Bullets a Waste of Money

[Morgan]

Oh, lucky me! I get to break it to him...

CeasearI - BrokenArrow IS Michael Orick.

[BrokenArrow]

Shhhhhhh!

Contained/Controlled Soft Point depending on who answers the email at Federal. Tom B. says contained and that was the working name during development.

After 4-6 layers of denim into water jugs:

165 EFMJ

970 fps 5/.425
965 5/.524
1082 exited 5, not recovered
1119 4/.609

165 Win S/SXT 1060 4/.69
165 PMC JHP 985 4/.66
180 S/SXT 4/.68
180 PMC SF 4/.75

Beats me what's up w EFMJ. I asked Tom B. about it, he said water is not a good medium for testing this bullet. Another engineer mentioned the lack of "sheer force" in water may have something to do with it? Seems to work fine in gel/tissue.

165 Fed EFMJ v 165 Rem GS

bare 12.4/.62 v 14.8/.64
cloth 13.3/.60 v 14.4/.66
steel 11.6/.51 v 17.1/.48
wboard 12.8/.61 v 16.6/.58
pwood 16/.58 v 19.3/.45
glass 11.7/.53 v 12.5/.51

Not bad at all, but not excaliber either?

Best reason to go for it is the $19 per box of 50?

I asked Tom B. _his_ first choice in a 40 defensive load: 155 Triton Quick-Shok. Best of the competition compared to his stuff (HS, SF, QS, EFMJ)? Gold Dot.

[CaesarI]

Good grief... I'm always the last to know.

Contained, controlled, the e-mail i got was controlled obviously.

Apparently they downgraded the velocity of the 9mm, or perhaps they dropped it because it wasn't meeting the claims. It was 1180, and now it's 1120 (oddly exactly the same as Federals other 124gr fodder). Any ideas on that? But I guess if it's accurate, and light recoiling that makes it what the 115gr SilverTip was before it became the evil round that didn't penetrate cardboard. It seems that Federal promised a lot in advertising, but never delivered. if you read their literature it is supposed to penetrate a lot farther.

Hollowpoints all work beautifully in water, what they fail in is tissue that doesn't have enough (as far as the data I've seen goes anyway). This I feel is what makes the EFMJ so special. I think it is definitely an good choice for people concerned about "over-penetration". Better even than the high speed 115's. It will expand in dry material when you miss (no more annoying "a miss is the ultimate in over-penetration comments" :-) ), and it *should* always expand in flesh though I'd like to see more evidence, perhaps some sort of real world examples?
The answer that it doesn't give is for those who want more penetration. I don't believe it will have much luck getting through an arm bone at all. Nose section will be torn apart, but who knows. The only other Excalibur in 9mm I'm looking at is handloaded high speed 147's. There was another post on it a while ago I was participating in. 1100fps, seems to be within the realm of the possible. But we're off topic now.

-Morgan

[BrokenArrow]

147/9 XTP in gel at 1169 fps: 13.3/.61
124/9 XTP in gel at 1325 fps: 11.87/.62

From a SIG P229 in 357SIG.

Various 124/9s in gel after cloth (all std pressure but EFMJ:

124 EFMJ +P 11.5/.53
124 Starfire 13.2/.56
124 Golden Saber 12.7/.60
124 Gold Dot 16/.54
124 HS 13.2/.53
124 Partition Gold (Win LEO) 13.7/.65

EFMJ from MP5 at 1225 fps:

bare 11.3/.60
cloth 10.9/.60
steel 11.1/.49
wboard 9/.59
pwood 10.3/.60
glass 8.6/.51

[Double Naught Spy]

Whether it costs me $1.50 (one mag of ball) or $4 (one mag of Hydrashok) to stop a bad guy, money is not an issue.

This is sort of akin to the guy that told me he got a $500 Glock because it was cheaper than buying an $800 1911 and that if he can protect himself for $500 and not $800, he will go the $500 route. His reasoning was that you should only spend just enough to meet you minimal standards. The Glock was the cheapest gun that satisfied his criteria and he wasn't going to spend any more than that. The reasoning might make some economical sense, but personally, saving my life or the life of a family member is not $ dependent.

I can get new ammo, another gun, a new car, or a new house, but I can't get a replacement for the wife and kids at any cost.

[GUNNUTS]

300,000 cops can't be wrong, go with the hollowpoints!

[Master Blaster]

Wow this thread has taken on a life of its own, I suspected that this would be a touchy subject.

My real concern is not the money, but the lack of penetration on large fat bodied badguys, or skinny folks hit from the side as they are lunging towards me, resulting in superficial injuries.

I like my G-26, and my model 36 chiefs special, it seems to me from my own testing that in the 36 158gr LSWC give the best penetration, better than the federal hydra shoks I've been carrying. 9mm FMJ or hollowpoints of the +p flavor seem to do equaly well in the G-26.

Please dont tell me about geletin tests they are completely irrelevant, and more related to the Speed of the projectile FPS, and its configuration they tell me nothing about the effect on a human being in a real confrontation.

[Art Eatman]

Master Blaster, in the court case to which I earlier referred, three of the HydraShok hits were from the side. The deceased wasn't "skinny", but generally slender. Anyway, I do recall that one bullet went through the right bicep, the rib cage, and through the heart.

There was one hit to the jaw/neck, and the final two were into the back in (generally) the upper center. Again, the coroner's report stated that any would have been fatal. To repeat, a 2" .38 Special.

And that's why I carry HydraShoks.

Art

[CaesarI]

Hey Master Blaster I'm on your team here. I'm a member of the super secret Penetration alliance as well. Shhh... if we're not quiet we'll get beat up by the wielders of CorBon and the like.

First off, no ballistic Gelatin doesn't perfectly replicate human tissue, but it does darned close. Second, there are deeper penetrating hollowpoints. In 9mm the 147's tend to get better penetration, in the neighborhood of 14-16" If you want lots of penetration get the 147gr XTP, and don't send it at speeds over 1000 fps. It gets more than 16" of penetration in the FBI tests I've seen. It penetrates a little too far for my tastes though. I tend to stick to the 13-16" range, generally preferring 13-15. I don't consider wallboard, or plywood things I really want my bullets shooting through. I look at Bare Gelatin and Clothed gelatin numbers. You also might consider looking at the Devel bullet, which isn't out yet in handgun cartridges:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tact...article422.htm

The Hornady XTP 147gr 9mm at 918 fps according to the FBI in 1991 gets 22.1" of penetration in bare gel and 20.50" penetration in clothed Gel. Expanding to .44 and .46 respectively.

-Morgan

[ArmySon]

I like my G-26, and my model 36 chiefs special, it seems to me from my own testing that in the 36 158gr LSWC give the best penetration, better than the federal hydra shoks I've been carrying.

You stated some of the problems right there. You can't expect those short barrel guns to have the same velocity as their larger brothers and sisters.

[Rebeldon]

I've been doing a good bit of research and thinking about the usefulness of hollow point bullets, and the premium defense loads we all pay so much money for.

Master Blaster, how much hunting have you done? If you did hunt, you would see the effectiveness of mushrooming ammunition. In my state, Alabama, it's even illegal to hunt deer with FMJ bullets because they are more likely to wound a deer than to kill it. I seriously doubt there would be many, if any, deer hunters here who would use FMJ ammunition if it were legal. In fact, I'd like to hear some actual deer hunters tell me that they wish it were legal to hunt deer with FMJ bullets. I don't expect to hear from any because it would simply be too silly. It seems no less silly to me that someone would prefer FMJ ammunition for personal defense, yet some of you fellers keep insisting on it, and try to convince others to do the same.

[GLOCKT]

If a string majority of all our neighboring police forces,FBI agencies and other security forces private and civilian have the confidence in carrying said hollow points.Then I believe I can't be to wrong in my trust my Cor Bons will perform,undoubtedly as tested in various labs,with the regards I place the shot at the most center mass of said target.Hollow points for self defense,FMJ for range plinking.SAFE-SHOOTING!

[BrokenArrow]

Gel testing isn't everything, but it isn't irelevant either.

San Diego PD looked at the results from over 150 shootings w the 147 9mm and found it tracked the gel very close. About 13/.60 in the gel and real people.

Determine how much penetration you want, use the gel results to find ammo that does that much under the conditions you are concerned about.

Most PDs use JHPs because they do open up more often than not, bigger holes are better holes, and they reduce liability from ricochets/overpenetration (when it happens; it does happen, and it happens less w JHPs).

[sthomper]

are most defensive shooting scenarios most of time not bare gelatin...but clothing, forearm bones, couch cushions, storm doors, etc....


when the hp are recoved in real shootings is there data showing if they expand at all??

[Snyper]

I think you may have set a new record by reopening a 14 year old thread

It's generally accepted hollowpoints are the best choice for self defense, whether they perform as desired 100% of the time, or not.

[1-DAB]

I'll stick with Hornady Critical Duty.

[Sevens]

In this case, hollow point STILL doing damage, fourteen years after it was fired off. Sheesh.

[44 AMP]

If you have something new to add, over 14 years after this thread stopped, start a new thread.
CLOSED.