Gun store clerks

[Lohman446]

So exactly who should decide what the proper firearm for an individual is? Apparently there is a belief among some on this forum that the individual store should dictate what a customer can and cannot buy based on... I'm not even sure what we are discussing is based on.

[mrt949]

Everyone is in the must have mode .
And not getting the proper training.
This is how people get hurt .
I have seen this first hand .
When a adult gave a young girl a large caliber Desert eagle and it clunked her right between the eyes.

[K_Mac]

So exactly who should decide what the proper firearm for an individual is? Apparently there is a belief among some on this forum that the individual store should dictate what a customer can and cannot buy based on... I'm not even sure what we are discussing is based on.

I think it is based on the OPs belief that the clerk had an obligation to make sure the apparently unknowing couple understood that a snub 44 magnum is a handful. I don't see anyone recommending not selling her what she wants.

[Pahoo]

Apparently there is a belief among some on this forum that the individual store should dictate what a customer can and cannot buy based on.

If that is your read, so be it. I have been involved in a number of transactions between store clerks and customers and not once have I seen any, dictates from a clerk. A lot of egos and opinions perhaps but no dictates and most customers would not put up with that. ......

I'm not even sure what we are discussing is based on.

Safety concerns but you may need to go back and read that !!!
We all have a little safety "bell", in our heads that often tells us that "perhaps" something isn't right. That is the only point that the OP is trying to make.. Not a debate or even getting into a spitting contest. .....

Be Cool and;
Be Safe !!!

[Lohman446]

SHE was set on buying the 44MAG.

So we should not be selling women 44 magnums even when they are set on buying them? We should talk them out of them? How, pray tell, does one do this without some combination of sexism and paternalism?

And yes I'm concerned. We are, in a way, advocating that only certain individuals be allowed to purchase certain firearms. Allowed is the wrong word but we are advocating that some individuals be strongly dissuaded from buying certain firearms. If someone has their heart set on a particular firearm practicality should not be a requirement. I do all my hunting in MI and have an affinity for the .375 H+H Magnum (yes you can download this). Its not the most practical of choices. I would be offended if a gun shop tried to talk me out of one the next time I order one.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

My only concern is selling a higher powered pistol or handgun to anyone would just be to caution them that the recoil can be dangerous. There enough cases of accidents with beginners and such, that I would mention that.

Otherwise, I like the 44 mag snubbies - if I didn't have so many other bills lately, I might get one - just because.

[salvadore]

Sounds like a bunch of busybody old women.

[Lohman446]

My only concern is selling a higher powered pistol or handgun to anyone would just be to caution them that the recoil can be dangerous. There enough cases of accidents with beginners and such, that I would mention that.

A valid concern. Not one that is rendered moot by any of the revolvers described.

[Salmoneye]

You really don't need that bacon double cheese-burger and fries...

What you really want is this salad...

[K_Mac]

Sounds like a bunch of busybody old women.

Exactly the sort of comment one would expect from a busy body old woman!

Lohman I don't see how a conversation regarding the pros and cons of a particular weapon with a customer is offensive. Would you be offended if the clerk asked what it is about a 375 H&H that you liked? If your answer was big gun big bullets, and he added that it's a little heavy in weight and recoil for most, would that offend?

[Lohman446]

Lohman I don't see how a conversation regarding the pros and cons of a particular weapon with a customer is offensive. Would you be offended if the clerk asked what it is about a 375 H&H that you liked? If your answer was big gun big bullets, and he added that it's a little heavy in weight and recoil for most, would that offend?

I would assume someone looking at a 44 MAG (or a 375 H+H) to be aware of the fact it shoots heavy / big bullets and tends to recoil. Remember in the story as we are told the lady did not just walk in and ask for the gun like "Dirty Harry" or some such. There was at least some conversation by the clerk as to why the .44 MAG (we are told big gun / big bullets).

The opportunity for the clerk to discuss any pros and cons was as he or she put the different firearms on the counter. Once the customer has made a choice trying to talk the customer out of the choice (as it seems the OP is concerned the clerk did not do) is paternalism. I find paternalism to be at best questionable in regards to ethics.

I'm curious, as the OP states he or she has no respect for the store based on this single transaction, what exactly was expected of the store?

In direct answer to your question I am not easily offended. Would I be offended? Nope. Do I see where others could be? Yeh

[K_Mac]

Lohman I have seen sexism displayed by gun store folks. I have experienced condescension and perhaps paternalism. Believe me when I say have no patience with anyone treating me or anyone else disrespectfully. I don't think asking a few questions to try to make sure the customer gets something that will best satisfy their wants and needs is anything but good business. When you consider safety as another consideration, it makes just good sense to me.

[Lohman446]

Lohman I have seen sexism displayed by gun store folks. I have experienced condensation and perhaps paternalism. Believe me when I say have no patience with anyone treating me or anyone else disrespectfully. I don't think asking a few questions to try to make sure the customer gets something that will best satisfy their wants and needs is anything but good business. When you consider safety as another consideration, it makes just good sense to me.

I think we disagree on how the original conversation went (and considering I wasn't there my concept may be way off). As the gun store clerk was handing the different firearms over her or she should have explained the high and low points to the couple - especially if they gave any indication of wanting that information. However after the lady made up her mind and decided on the .44 the decision should be left to her.

If there is a concern about the recoil of the .44 it should be mentioned as the firearm is put up for consideration - not after the decision is made.

I once had a gun store talk me out of buying a min-revolver because the person doing the selling felt I should buy something else (I had asked how much to have him order me one). I bought a mini-revolver at a different gun store that I had to travel 50 miles to. I just don't see how, after presenting the different firearms and having the lady decide on the "bigger gun / bigger bullets" revolver one then decides to have a conversation about recoil without it seeming out of place.

[TimSr]

Neither the Husband or the Clerk tried to change Her decision .
The husband didn't show he had any firearm experience .

Considering store clerks all get bashed on gun forums as morons no matter what they say, because somebody will always disagree, a smart store clerk would not give his opinion unless asked for it, and even then, it's with great reluctance because they know they will have to argue with at least some of the eavesdroppers who have a different opinion and deem themselves smarter, because everybody knows that store clerks don't know anything.

[Ozzieman]

Considering store clerks all get bashed on gun forums as morons no matter what they say, because somebody will always disagree, smarter

Totally agree ++

[johnwilliamson062]

The most the clerk should do is suggest she buy some light 44 mag or 44 special rounds to start out. If it was a guy buying I don't think this post would exist.
You can go looking for expensive full house loads or load your own that will cause nerve damage, but if you are just buying the cheapest stuff off the shelf at walmart, which is what most inexperienced people do, probably going to be OK.

If it is my wife I am all smiles as she makes that choice.
In an afternoon I, or a friend as me instructing her tends to go south, can get her shooting it comfortably with full power loads.
If not it is all mine without any stern looks from her.
Either way I ma going to get to shoot it fairly often.

[Skans]

The lady knew what she wanted, took command of the situation, bought what she came for, and I applaud her. Unless the lady was ancient, or had some physical deformity, there is no reason she can't shoot a 44 magnum snub nose safely. If it turns out to be "too much" for her, then guess what, she can shoot 44 special or trade it in for something else and lose a little money on the trade.

If that was the man instead of the woman buying that gun, this wouldn't even be a story.

[bbqncigars]

I was behind the counter when .44mag became the hot item back when 'Dirty Harry' came out in theaters. Before the net, you had very few sources of gun info. Mostly gun mags and reloading manuals. We had a lot of guys (and a very few women) come in to buy a .44. I would usually end up selling them a box of .44 special for general range fun and a box of Browning .44 mag. The latter was a stout load of a plated 240gr SWC that had lots of recoil and muzzle flash. It was unpleasant to shoot in quantity from a Ruger Super Blackhawk. I never tried to talk a customer out of a gun, but to make their range time a friendlier experience. "Yes, you should have ear plugs or muffs even at the outdoor range. No, gloves aren't necessary, and so on." Talk about really clueless newbies!

[Cheapshooter]

If I'm the clerk, I definitely try to talk the lady out of the 44mag. I mean seriously. People always look at employees for help, where the spoken or not. Advising one model vs the other is different than letting an inexperienced woman buy a 44 mag snubbie.

Wrong!

The most the clerk should do is suggest she buy some light 44 mag or 44 special rounds to start out.

Better

The clerk certainly could have explained the pluses and minuses of the revolver

Best

It ultimately is the buyers choice, but the clerk's only intervention would have been to explain the possible ill effects of that powerful of a weapon. Definitely not to tell her she shouldn't buy what she wanted.

[dannyb]

Since none of us heard the whole conversation, I would be loath to suggest what this particular clerk should have said. One the other hand, I don't think that it would be out of line for a clerk to give strictly factual information about any of the items requested. It's one thing, and wrong, for the clerk to say that the customer should not buy something. It would not be wrong for the clerk to say something about recoil of the range of items laid on the case as long as it's not delivered in a condescending manner.

I go to my LGS because I have some confidence in the people behind the counter. I've been shooting for around 50 years, but I still don't know everything. I'm always glad to get information. I would not return to an LGS where the clerk gave me no information and sold me a firearm that was inappropriate to my stated purpose.

[Skans]

I would not return to an LGS where the clerk gave me no information and sold me a firearm that was inappropriate to my stated purpose.

I look at it this way - most of the guns I buy are from gun shows, gunbroker or other private sources. Rarely do I buy a gun from my LGS. But, if I do, I'm not looking for advice, I already know exactly what I want.

One time I purchased a M10 semi-auto open-bolt carbine (really low serial number) from someone via the internet. Had it shipped to my FFL. When I showed up to pick up this odd gun, my FFL looked at me, told me that this was a gangster gun and asked why I would ever buy that. All I told him was "because I like it". Believe me, I knew exactly what it was. I simply figured that if he had no clue why I bought it then he had no clue what he was even looking at. That's my impression of most LGS sales people and even owners.

[Bluestarlizzard]

I would not return to an LGS where the clerk gave me no information and sold me a firearm that was inappropriate to my stated purpose.

You don't go in with a list of potentials for your purpose and information regarding all of them?

Because, too be honest, I don't really trust a complete stranger on a purchase like that. Especially not a salesman.
You never know what you're going to get. Could be very knowledgeable, could be an idiot, could be a jerk. If knowledgeable, you might learn more than you did walking in, but too be so dependent on that, that you would walk out of the store with a gun based completely on trusting the clerk seems... well, a little stupid to me.

[SIGSHR]

Everyone assumes that gun store clerks are incredibly knowledgeable, vast founts of information, real enthusiasts.
I note that a number of gunshops with ranges here in NJ state they will work with a beginner, offer training, answer all questions, etc. As we have discussed, spouses, siblings, parents, grandparents, the family veteran are not always such good sources of information nor do they have always have the teaching skills and the patience to work with a novice.

[Snyper]

Everyone assumes that gun store clerks are incredibly knowledgeable, vast founts of information, real enthusiasts.

Too many assume the same about customers.
As to the OP, we really don't know what the clerk told the customers about anything at all.

We're only getting one side of a story.

[Brian Pfleuger]

I've heard enough "helpful" advice from salespeople selling everything from comic books to pizza to cars to guns that I truly believe that, in most cases, the customer who gets the best advice is the one who gets none at all.

Besides, freedom and accountability. Just like I don't carry so I can protect other people who refuse to protect themselves, I am not responsible for the lady at the gun counter buying the gun that's right for her. Neither is the clerk. He is only responsible for giving correct and honest information when asked.

S.E.P. Somebody. Else's. Problem.

Namely, the lady buying the gun.

Now, the husband is responsible to a degree. It's his family. Just like he should take the responsibility of being ready to protect them from violence, he should take seriously the responsibility to do his best to help his family in any and every other way possible. However, as mentioned above, "telling" your wife that she shouldn't/can't buy/do/say something is not only a recipe for sleeping on the couch but also a lack of respect. Equally, the wife's failure to acknowledge and consider the husbands well considered and knowledgeable advice would be very disrespectful... but then we're back to whether or not he had any to give.