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Old February 17, 2015, 01:05 AM   #1
riverratt
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those that hunt with cast

This question is for those of you that hunt with cast boolits out of a handgun. I would like your answers to be from personal experience please.

I have modified a lee 310-430 mold for hunting purposes (white tail). My boolit weight is around 255 gr. And I'm shooting it out of a 7 1/2 in sbh. What I'm wanting to know is, is it better to have a softer boolit for expansion or a harder boolit for better penetration?

I have never hunted with cast before and I am concerned about on game performance from a harder alloy that probably will not expand.
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Old February 17, 2015, 01:25 AM   #2
FrankenMauser
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If you want energy transfer, then go for a softer alloy that will expand.

If you want penetration, use a harder alloy.

If you want a compromise that gives you plenty of penetration, and a little bit of sledgehammer-like energy transfer and a decent permanent would cavity, then use a wide meplat as well.


Since the Lee 310RF has a decent meplat in stock form... you're already on the right track.
I stuff my 7.5" SBH with (standard) Lee 430-310-RFs, cast in Isotope Core alloy (~BHN 10.5) and wrapped in a gas check. Soft enough to expand a little, but just hard enough to put that weight to good use and keep the bullet together.

They penetrate just as far as full power .444 Marlin loads in wet-pack (newsprint and catalogs). But, I haven't ever been able to recover one from an animal.
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Old February 17, 2015, 11:02 PM   #3
Hunter Customs
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I took a Lee C452-300-RF mold and milled most of the gas check part off of the mold.

The mold now throws bullets right at 280 grs with a wide flat nose design that I like, this will now be my hunting bullet in 45 Colt.

I plan on doing the same thing with a Lee C430-310-RF mold hoping to get a bullet around 270 grs for my 44's.

I don't know the exact hardness of my bullets, they are cast from range scrap that is 90% cast bullets I purchased from a commercial caster.

I don't care about expansion, when using bullets with a large meplat.

Best Regards
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Old February 18, 2015, 05:14 AM   #4
Mike / Tx
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I can almost guarantee your going to get expansion with that alloy. Not that you really need it with that big flat nose, but it's gonna happen.

I poured these from an alloy that runs around a 10BHN and they were shot out of my 45 Colt lengthwise into a 5 gallon bucket full of very fine sand at 50yds. I get around 8-10" of penetration from them as well,



The load I am using gets me right around 1100fps give or take a little. I shot a nice 200+ pound feral boar with two of them one morning. The first shot was at about 10yds maybe and I simply drew pointed and shot. He had put the sneek on the grandson and I and came down the hill right up behind us. I heard him and turned and drew just about the time he realized he messed up. The first shot hit him somewhere around his right shoulder area but was angled sharply back due to his position and it spun him completely around. We could see a golfball sized white wad about 2" which plugged the exit hole. About the time he regained his footing, I hit him again with another one and spun him back around the other way, and he caught traction and left. Unfortunately neither of them were solid anchoring shots, but they did work. We couldn't track him due to the holes plugging with fat or otherwise. He made it maybe a hundred yards and went up into a brush pile that was overgrown with vines. The clean up crew had him found that afternoon but even they couldn't get up and under all of the thick stuff.

Other than that one I have shot several critters using the 452300 that you have already trimmed off. However those are running around 1550fps from my 454 using straight COWW air cooled. I personally have found this to be MORE than plenty on several hogs and a deer.

I was told by a few folks over on the CB"s site that anything in the range of 1000 - 1350fps was plenty for these type bullets, and that trying for more would result in two things, less energy dump, or far more meat damage than I would want should I slam through some solid shoulder bone. On the hogs and deer I have dressed out after being hit with the 454 up close and out to 80'ish yards I haven't found any massive tissue trauma, but I have found a common 2" or so diameter hole almost from the inside of the hide on the entry side to the exit.
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Old February 18, 2015, 10:42 AM   #5
Hunter Customs
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Mike, the cast bullets I've been salvaging are advertised as having a BHN of 17made with 6% Antimony and 2% Tin.

I'll be running my bullets 900-1000 fps in the 45 Colt, the 44's I plan on getting up around 1100 fps.

If they expand like yours in the picture that's fine, however that's not my goal.
I'll be using them for deer hunting and my hopes are the bullets pass through both sides of the deer giving me a good blood trail if needed.

Best Regards
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Old February 18, 2015, 01:27 PM   #6
Sure Shot Mc Gee
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Got black bear to deal with at my cabin. Bold animals. My preference is to grab my Red Hawk 7-1/2 incher to get them things a quick stepp'en out of my back yard away from my burning barrel or observed from within standing up on their back legs their being supported by our storm door while peering into our kitchen on more than one occasion. Which has a tendency to put my Mrs. on the ragged edge of course and too our guests who have witness such. _ 44 its cylinders are purposely kept loaded with cast of different lead recipe's. All are 255 gr poured & checked Lymans which seem to work well on those uninvited heavy weight fellers and their powered up with a hefty charge of Winchester-296 for the sole purpose of giving the boldest bruin what they deserve i.e. >a horribly Bad Day!!_ Red Hawk's bullets range from straight CO-WW to pure water dropped linotype and some other mix in My Ye' Old Pot of my own invention is also loaded up and made up of both materials {plus having a little pewter purposely added to help define the molds edges.} but never water dropped is also cast. Have retrieved a few lino bullets over the years from those bruin when I could or wanted too find them evil Black animals. Anything that wasn't pure lino expanded to all sorts of degree's and shapes. At times when hitting heavy bone a few lead blends have expanded violently. Pure Lino bullets on the other hand will also deform a bit or change its intended direction depending on a bones curvature or its glancing off a heavy bone structure which could also made it happen I suppose. But then again those bullets when fired into large Boar or sows in my experiences were more often found tucked up nicely under the animals hide. Opposite side of its entrance along with a large amount of messy blood shot area seen in the animals butchering.
I've shot deer with my 44 on occasion. For that purpose I've never used anything but a 210 gr. Lyman. That grain weight gives me all the performance I am wanting. Expansion of a 210 grain with its mold cavity's filled with Lyman's # 2 recipe or a tad harder BHN recipe has always assured me of a quick clean kills if I did my part. Plus the perk of using such a bullet. Its speed alone makes the bullet flat shooting so to speak over its heavy weight brothern.
Why so many big bore pistol hunters think heavy weight bullet's are needed to harvest a thin skinned animal as a deer is. Yup!! leaves me clueless at times when listening too or reading those fellows thought's on the subject. But ~~to each their own or whatever trips their trigger has always been fine with me.

Last edited by Sure Shot Mc Gee; February 18, 2015 at 01:35 PM.
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Old February 19, 2015, 04:40 PM   #7
Mike / Tx
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Quote:
Why so many big bore pistol hunters think heavy weight bullet's are needed to harvest a thin skinned animal as a deer is. Yup!! leaves me clueless at times when listening too or reading those fellows thought's on the subject. But ~~to each their own or whatever trips their trigger has always been fine with me.
Just my own perspective here. As you mention though a LOT of folks praise the heavier weight bullets. The main reason I see is that for the most part usually they are not running top end charges, but something of a mid weight one. So granted a hard fast bullet will penetrate, but it will also slow down faster than a heavier one at a modestly slower speed, granted of course that both are poured form the same alloy.

From my personal use, I use the 300gr in my 454 simply due to the fact the mold was cheap and they shoot like a house afire. (almost literally) Now with the 45 Colt, while the revolver is a Redhawk, I don't try to hot rod them too much. I still like the slow heavy version of the story. While 1000-1100fps with a 250 - 280'ish grain bullet isn't quite up into magnum territory, it does command a decent grip on the handle when you touch one off. It is by no means a plinking load.

Now with my 44, I am still working with a few different molds and loads to determine just where I want to be with it. I just haven't put in the effort to finalize things like I have with the Colt and 454. Even so I am leaning toward the 240'ish grain bullets at a velocity of around 1350'ish or so FPS which will give me the best accuracy. I found out using my 41 that this particular velocity range is plenty of speed to make out to 100yd shots, with enough umph left over to reliably put a 200'ish or so pound hog on the ground using a Remington 200gr SJHP. I figure that if it works that well for that bullet, then just about anything else I have should also do at least as good using a good bullet design in about that same range of speed.

In the 357 and the 41 though I am leaning on some 160-170gr bullets in the smaller and some 215-220gr in the bigger one. This just gives me a little wiggle room in that I might not have to go as fast but should still get about the same penetration as with the 200gr bullets. If so, and the load is as accurate, well I will be one happy camper.
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Old February 20, 2015, 03:45 AM   #8
FrankenMauser
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Quote:
Why so many big bore pistol hunters think heavy weight bullet's are needed to harvest a thin skinned animal as a deer is. Yup!! leaves me clueless at times when listening too or reading those fellows thought's on the subject. But ~~to each their own or whatever trips their trigger has always been fine with me.
In this particular thread, the target species was not identified. So, there's no telling what riverratt is after. ...It could be prairie dogs. It could be Caribou. It could be armadillos. It could be Bison....


As for me...
My 7.5" SBH is used primarily for Elk hunting. Elk are quite a bit tougher than deer, and much tougher than black bear, big cats, and antelope.
Most bullets can get the job done, but very few can get it done well. I have seen many a projectile recovered from Elk, over the years, and the majority of handgun projectiles never cease to amaze me in how ineffective they were.

Low velocity just punches holes with inadequate penetration.
Light bullets tend to fragment or completely disintegrate.
Even some commercial bullets, well-renowned when used on deer, turn into a worthless collection of fragments when used on Elk.

Light bullets, at high velocity, in my experience but contrary to popular opinion, have shown themselves to be one of the worst possible choices for use on Elk. (Such as 180 gr XTPs, or Sierra JHCs, at 1,600 fps in .44 Mag.)

General lesson learned from my experience: Unless it's big and heavy, and fired at a healthy velocity, it isn't going to do much.

Deer....? Usually a different story. But with tougher game, run-of-the-mill bullets usually won't be adequate, and might do more harm than good.


...Such as with a large, old Bull Elk that two of my hunting partners took down a few years back. After it absorbed 3-4 fatal hits with .277" 160 gr Nosler Partitions, it was still going. It then got smacked with 4 rounds of .41 Rem Mag sporting hot 195 gr SWCs and 3 rounds of .44 Rem Mag, with 180 gr Sierras at 1,630 fps [from my SHB, actually - but not by me]. It took another 3 bullets from one of the revolvers (.41 Mag, I think) in the neck and base of the skull, before it was finally "lights out."

The Sierras failed spectacularly (not the first time we've seen that), and the SWCs in the .41 Mag were simply too light and the wrong style of bullet. They acted like round nose projectiles, and just pushed tissue aside as they penetrated minimally before stopping in muscle tissue.
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Old February 20, 2015, 12:59 PM   #9
Shooter 973
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Handgun hunting with cast.

I've taken several Mule deer and smaller game with 240-250gr. cast SWC out of a couple of Rugers. I have more often than not had complete pass thru's on Mule deer. Broadside shots are almost 100% pass thrus. One I shot from face on had the full lenth of body penitration. Hit it centered in the chest and found the bullet near the tail. Thats about 3ft. of penetration. Or more. Shot a porcupine from about 50yrds.and he just seemed to explode. Huge wound all the way thru.
I've not been convinced that I need more bullet wieght.
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