Security credentials for armed citizen (VA)?

[Gentleman Ranker]

In my state (Virginia), security guards (armed and unarmed) and similar occupations (examples include Personal Protection Specialists, Private Investigators, and Special Conservators of the Peace, a kind of private police) must be trained, certified and carry a state ID (like a driver's license, one gets them at the DMV I believe) in order to be employed in those fields.

I am wondering if it would be of any advantage to an ordinary citizen with a CCW to train and be certified as a Security Guard (armed) or something similar, even though they had no intention of working in that field. As I read the regulations, there is nothing that prohibits that. [Note that it is apparently not legal to work freelance as one of these occupations based on the credential; a registered business still has to hire you. If you're solo, you have to be a registered business, and that's not so easy.]

Based on what I've seen, most of the training is pretty perfunctory and oriented towards the minimum necessary, but a) it does include some state-specific legal training on use-of-force and similar topics b) it is a recognized state standard, and c) there seem to be one or two schools that don't necessarily train to the minimum level.

Thoughts? I believe member DCJS Instructor is a principal at one of the relevant schools.

Please note that I'm not asking whether it's a good idea to buy some fake badge and pretend to be Gecko45, the Original Mall Ninja(tm). The idea is more to have a state-issued ID that certifies a level of training beyond the minimum necessary for a CCW.

regards,

GR

[FireForged]

Training is good but you should seek training that is specific to what you need. If you are not going into security/protection type work then most of the training will probably be a total waste of time for you. If you want training in selfdefense with a firearm then find training specific to that. Security training would likely be primarily focused on legal liabilities/responsibilities and methodology with a minor focus on firearms.

[#20fan]

my thoughts would be that most of the required training is for liability reasons. Neither the employer nor the State, since they license Companies as well as individuals, wants to be sued. If you CCW you're pretty much on your own.

[Jermtheory]

I was certified as an armed PI in VA about 8-10 years ago.I had little interest in working in the field.I needed my VA CCW anyway and i thought it might be fun.We worked on everything from photography to doing surveillance/counter surveillance excersises out in public...Interviewing techniques.Nothing too advanced to be sure,but i found it amusing and even learned a few things.

IIRC it was a 4(maybe 6?) week course,6 hours a day,5 days a week if im not mistaken.We did about a week exclusively on firearms.One class a lawyer was brought in to go over the legalities and have Q&A session.

We spent a great deal of time on firearms overall...

Although i think that may have had more to do with the specific class and maybe not so much with the standard training guidelines.There were a couple pretty serious shooters in the class and/or in the building for other reasons and most of our free time was spent at the range.We also had an instructor who was pretty liberal with how our time was spent(as long as we put in the hours and covered what was required first).

[hoytinak]

I currently work as a commisioned (armed) security guard and have my CHL also. The classes are pretty much the same here in Texas, both covering the Penal Codes and legalities of what you can and can't do...even the firearm's qualification is the same.

Also in Texas to keep your armed guard license you have to be employed by a guard company...you can't just have one to have one.

[Jermtheory]

Also in Texas to keep your armed guard license you have to be employed by a guard company...you can't just have one to have one.

Technically my license was good until it expired(dont recall how long that took)...although useless unless employed by a company as well.

As mentioned,the course given was more than enough to qualify for my CCW permit though(which was what peaked my interest to begin with).

[hoytinak]

Technically my license was good until it expired(dont recall how long that took)...although useless unless employed by a company as well.

Yeah technically it's good for 2 years but like you said it's useless unless employed by a guard company.

[Neruda]

I don't live in the US so I can't comment on legal specifics. However, might a "professional" carry license possibly make you "more" liable for your actions? In a self-defence situation, could a jury be argued into putting a higher criteria on your actions?

In England, for example, I believe that nurses are advised to avoid helping at car accidents. The rationale seems that, as they have some professional medical training, they are judged more strictly should their help prove to be incorrect. Me, if I survived, I would be grateful for any help.

Just a passing thought...

[DCJS Instructor]

To answer your original question I train anyone who comes to my school for a
CHP course the same info that I teach Private Security /Law Enforcement.

In Virginia one need only take a (4) hour safety course to get a CHP.

Anyone who takes the below training has shown that they have made an investment and also shows they have trained beyond the minimum and has met a training standard. The info the may learn may help keep them from getting into the bad situation to begin with. However if they must use deadly force they were trained when thay can use it, "Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy Preclusion".how to use it. Then most importantly what to do once you have used it. Trust me when you go to court if involved in any type of shooting all your training is reviewed.

We have a saying in my school that was coined a long time ago but is still true today....
You will not rise to the occasion in a gunfight....You will default to the level of training you have mastered. How good was your training?

The DCJS Handgun requirements are below please note that the officer must take;

18hours of Security Officer Entry Level Core Subjects(01E) & 8 hours of Arrest Authority(05E)
before they can take 14 hours of classroom training and then qualify on the range for Handgun (07E).

Here are the requirements:

6 VAC 20-171-370. Entry level handgun training.

A. Handgun classroom training.
1. The entry level handgun classroom training will include but not be limited to the following:

a. The proper care and maintenance of the firearm;
b. Civil liability of the use of firearms;
c. Criminal liability of the use of firearms;
d. Firearms retention and storage;
e. Deadly force;
f. Justifiable deadly force;
g. Range safety;
h. Principles of marksmanship;
i. Practical firearms handling and safety;
j. Judgmental shooting; and
k. Dim Low level light shooting familiarization
Total Hours (excluding written examination)--14 hours
2. Written examination required.

B. Range qualification (no minimum hours). The purpose of the range qualification course is to provide practical firearms training to individuals desiring to become armed private security services business personnel.
1. Prior to the date of range training, it will be the responsibility of the school director to ensure that all students are informed of the proper attire and equipment to be worn for the firing range portion of the training. Equipment needed: handgun, belt with directional draw holster, ammunition (60 rounds)

2. Factory loaded practice or duty ammunition (60 rounds) may be used for practice or range qualification.

3. Course shall be fired double action, or double single action except for single action semi-automatic handguns.

4. All qualifications shall be conducted using a B-27 silhouette target or the FBI “Q” target. Alternate targets may be utilized with prior approval by the department.

5. With prior approval of the department, a reasonable modification of the firearms course may be approved to accommodate qualification on indoor ranges.

6. A certified firearms instructor must be present on the range directly controlling the fire line during all phases of firearms training. There shall be a minimum of one certified firearms instructor per five shooters on the line.

7. All individuals shall qualify with directional draw holsters only.

8. The range qualification of individuals shall be scored as follows:
B27 target: (use indicated K-value)7, 8, 9, 10 X rings--value 5 points, other hits on silhouette--value 0 points: divide points scored by maximum possible score to obtain decimal and convert to percentage, e.g., 225 ÷ 300 = .75 = 75%. FBI Q target: all hits inside the bottle – value 5 points; hits outside the bottle – value 0 points.

9. The low light range familiarization of individuals shall be scored as indicated above. This is strictly a familiarization course with no pass or fail grade provided.

C. Course: Virginia Private Security Course of Fire for Handguns. The course of fire shall be conducted using, at a minimum, the requirements set forth in subsection B of this section. Strong/weak hand refers to the primary hand used in firing the firearm. The opposite hand may be used for support. The course of fire shall be conducted in the following phases:

1. Phase 1; 3 yards, utilizing weaver, Modified Weaver, or isosceles stance, 18 rounds:
a. Load 6 rounds and holster loaded firearm.
b. On command, draw and fire 2 rounds (3 seconds), repeat.
c. Load 6 rounds and holster loaded firearm.
d. On command, draw and fire 6 rounds with strong hand.
e. Unload, reload 6 rounds and fire 6 rounds with weak hand (25 seconds).

2. Phase 2; 7 yards, utilizing weaver, Modified Weaver, or isosceles stance, 24 rounds:
a. Load 6 rounds and holster loaded firearm.
b. On command, draw and fire 1 round (2 seconds), repeat.
c. Load 6 rounds and holster loaded firearm.
d. On command, draw and fire 2 rounds (3 seconds), repeat.
e. Load 6 rounds and holster loaded firearm.
f. On command, draw and fire 6 rounds, reload 6 rounds, fire 6 rounds (30 seconds).

3. Phase 3; 15 yards, 70 seconds, 18 rounds:
a. Load 6 rounds and holster loaded firearm.
b. On command, assume kneeling position, draw and fire 6 rounds with strong hand.
c. Assume standing position, unload, reload and fire 6 rounds from weak-hand barricade position.
d. Unload, reload and fire 6 rounds from strong-hand barricade position (Kneeling position may be fired using barricade position.) (70 seconds).

D. Low Light Course: Virginia Private Security Low Light Familiarization Course of Fire for Handguns. The course of fire shall be conducted using, at a minimum, the requirements set forth in this subsection. Equipment needed: belt with directional draw holster, handgun, two speed loaders or three magazines, range ammunition (30 rounds). Equipment provided by instructor: A range that can simulate low light or a pair of welders goggles for each student that simulates low light. Strong/weak hand refers to the primary hand used in firing the firearm. The opposite hand may be used for support. The course of fire shall be conducted in the following phases:

1. Phase I; 3 yards, utilizing weaver or isosceles stance, 18 rounds:
a. Load 6 rounds and come to ready
b. On command, fire 2 rounds (3 seconds) repeat
c. Load 6 rounds and come to ready
d. On command, fire 6 rounds with strong hand
e. Unload, reload 6 rounds and fire 6 rounds
(30 seconds)

2. Phase 2; 7 yards, utilizing weaver or isosceles stance, 12 rounds
a. Load 6 rounds and come to ready
b. On command, fire 2 rounds (5 seconds), and repeat
c. Load 6 rounds and come to ready
d. On command, draw and fire 3 rounds (6 seconds), and repeat.

COST: $200.00 + AMMO

Example of Ammo cost 50 rounds of 9mm $8.75 (50 round box)

P.M. or call with any questions.

Tom Perroni
Training Director /Lead Firearms Instructor
Commonwealth Criminal Justice Academy
DCJS # 88-1499
(540) 322-3000 ext # 2
[email protected]
www.commonwealthcriminaljusticeacademy.com

[Gentleman Ranker]

Fireforged #2 points out:

Security training would likely be primarily focused on legal liabilities/responsibilities and methodology with a minor focus on firearms.

That might be part of the point, since simple armed citizens have legal responsibilities also. Firearms training itself is actually pretty easy to find; jurisdiction-specific legal training, much less so. I'm sure that some of the procedural things could be irrelevant, but I wonder about the legal and use-of-force aspects.

Neroda #8 suggests:

... might a "professional" carry license possibly make you "more" liable for your actions? In a self-defence situation, could a jury be argued into putting a higher criteria on your actions?

An excellent point actually, which was made (in a more general way) by Mas Ayoob when I took LFI-1 about ten years ago.

From what I know of the relevant laws here, it might not matter since I would not actuall be a security professional, just qualified as one (and the qualification is rather less than one might think).

As to your specific example of nurses and car accidents we generally have what are called "Good Samaritan" laws which limit the liability of medical professionals in such situations. From my reading, such laws do not seem to apply to "defense of others" situations under self-defense law. In general there is no duty to assist anyone else, however extreme the situation, and mistakes in "defending" the wrong person can have quite severe legal consequences. Of course that's true whether one has a security guard qualification or not.

One would like to think that any training would take effect and actually keep me from doing things I'd been trained against, but it certainly is a risk.

regards,

GR

[Don P]

Here in FLA I have what the state issues for security. A class D which is for un-armed security guards, ( 40 hour class ) to obtain. I also have a class G which is needed to be a armed security guard, ( 24 hour class + 8 hours range time ). Once a year we are required to take a 4 hour class and re-qualify with our firearm. The reason I obtained these is they were needed to work for Loomis ( armored truck ) The classes are expensive and so are the license fees to the state. Then the once a year class and range fees. I will maintain the license's because you never know and the company paid for all the up front fee's and now all I am responceable for is the yearly.

[DCJS Instructor]

In Virginia whenever a person is criminally charged with killing another person the courts in Virginia will presume it is second degree murder.

Why?

Second degree murder is punishable by 5-20 years in prison and a $100,000.00 fine.

This means that state must only prove you committed the homicide to make the case for second degree murder. To increase the charge the prosecutor must prove: ‘BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT” that the special conditions (willful, deliberate, premeditated or other actions) of first degree murder were committed. It is up to the defendant (Person who pulled the trigger) to prove that the lesser homicide was committed. The lesser charges are manslaughter which is still a crime, punishable by 1-10 years in prison and a $2,500 dollar fine, or justifiable or excusable homicide, which are not crimes. This may seem like “guilty until proven innocent” but is a long established standard in Virginia.

Examples:

1. When the commonwealth has provided the commissions of a homicide and has pointed out the accused as the criminal agent, then it may rest its case, and unless the accused shows circumstances of justification, alleviation or excuse a verdict of murder in the Second Degree will be warranted.
(Bonne V. Commonwealth, 1954)

2. …...the burden is upon the accused, if he/she would reduce the offense below murder in the second degree, to show the absence of malice and the other mitigating circumstances necessary for the purpose.
(McDaniel’s V. Commonwealth, 1883)

Just remember that in claiming “self defense” you are admitting that you committed the homicide. Your claim that your actions were necessary in protecting yourself include that admission that you committed what the courts will view as second degree murder charge until shown otherwise.
“I shot in self defense “begins with “I shot”……….
Example

Self defense is an affirmative defense…and In making such a plea a defendant implicitly admits that the killing was intentional and assumes the burden of introducing evidence of justification or excuse that raises a reasonable doubt in the minds of the jurors.
(Johnson V. Commonwealth, 1949)


Tom Perroni

[#20fan]

Ca. has 40hr. initial gurard card.= $230 (+ -)
Firearm cert. 14hr = $350 + ammo (100rds)
Renew guard card every 2 yrs = $32
Renew firearm cert twice yearly= $200 each time + ammo
Must qualify with each caliber you carry, each must be listed on permit = $50 each

[Gentleman Ranker]

DCJS Instructor #9 replies:

In Virginia one need only take a (4) hour safety course to get a CHP.

Technically, many people don't even need to take that. If you have a DD214 you need no training at all (I have a DD214, and have shot more in a weekend than I did in my entire military career). I've also read that some counties have accepted a fairly jive looking online "course", $40 and print out your own certificate. I am guessing that that won't last.

Trust me when you go to court if involved in any type of shooting all your training is reviewed.

That is more-or-less what I was thinking.

So, do you think the VA credential itself is of any value to someone not working in the field? Is quality training without the credential just as good as the same type and quality of training with the credential? That's really what I was asking.

regards,

GR

[DCJS Instructor]

Here is the point in a nut shell....the training requirement is very low, however if you are in a deadly force situation once in court you will be held to the highest standard.

As you pointed out one only needs a DD214 to get a permit.....I have meet many folks in my life who were military who were good shooters and tactically sound, I have also meet many who did not know what end of the firearm the bullet came out of.

The more training you have the better your chances are to PREVAIL in the gunfight and in court.

I spend as much time teaching you how to avoid the conflict, as I do how to prevail if you have no way out. And more importantly what to do and say or not do and say after the gunfight is just as important.

Do you need the credential? That is a personal choice.
Should you get the training? That is a personal choice.

Why do we have Insurance? Just in case we need it. We hope we never have to use it, but if we do need to use the coverage it's nice to know we have it.

I have the credential.

Tom Perroni

[Brit]

In Florida the required training is quite good, I have a D & G Lic; but the law on using force, that causes death, is very liberal. From October of 2006 the Castle doctrine? I think that is the Official name not the "Make my day" law, covers you very much 100% if you perceived a threat.

And you know since October 2006 we have not been piling bodies up here in Florida! Like so many people said would happen.

A strange part of the Security Officer (the official designation, not Guard) D Lic; you can not use force? Observe and report is it, even the G Lic; armed Officer does not allow Arrest, no powers of arrest on any Security Lic.

An interesting part of my original D License course, the various Scenario's we where taken through, the one I was given (and had to stand to answer, like being back in Junior School) " You are blocking access to the Stars dressing room in a Theater, an intoxicated patron with flowers, demands entrance you refuse him, he punches you, what do you do?"

I said he would not punch me! "Why not" I said I would flatten him first, I worked five years as a bouncer in Clubs in Liverpool UK. Drunks don't win.

This answer was not in the book, so we moved on!

We can carry a Revolver or a Semi Auto Pistol, 38 Special Revolver, 9mm Pistol is all the calibres we are allowed.

[matthew temkin]

I teach the 47 hour NYS Armed Security guard class,and I feel such a class should be required for all carry permit holders.
Topics that we cover include:

1) Safety

2) History of revolvers and semi autos and how they work.

3) How to draw and present both weapons for inspection or passing guns to others.

4) Basics of marksmanship, including much practice in one and two handed aimed fire at distances from 3-15 yards.

5) Holsters and accessories.

6)Close range shooting--including rapid drawing and point/hip shooting.

7) Shooting while on the move.

8) Dim light shooting/use of flashlights.

9) How to approach, position, handcuff and secure a perp.

10) How to call the police and how to safely interact with them upon their arrival.

11) Weapon retention.

12 ) 8 hours of legal & ethical issues of using deadly physical force.

13) 4 hours of interactive role playing via FOF and Shoot/Don't Shoot vodeos.

14) Gun cleaning and home storage safety.

Say Mr. Perroni-- does this sounds like something we can co teach together?

[DCJS Instructor]

Mr. Temkin:

You are welcome to teach anything you would like at my Academy & Range!

As for co-teaching it would be my honor!

Tom

[Gentleman Ranker]

I may not have made myself clear in the OP. When I say "credential", I mean an actual physical document or token that attests to a qualification or status. In this case, the VA security officer "credential" is a plastic card similar to a driver's license (I believe one gets them from the DMV) that certifies that the bearer has completed particular state-mandated training courses. The actual courses on the card will vary.

My question is whether that credential ... the actual ID card itself, legitimately obtained ... is of any value to a lawfully armed citizen who is not in the private security business.

I do not doubt at all that good training is necessary even if not legally required. I've had the NRA basic courses and LFI-1, and intend to spend some serious training time in the coming year.

DCJS Instructor #15 states:

I have the credential.

You are required to have it as a condition of your employment.

LEOs are not require to have it, despite their employment, because they have different credentials (their badge is one).

The only "credential" I am required to have as an armed citizen is a Virginia CHL and an appropriate accompanying ID document.

Would the DCJS private security credential (not the training, the credential) be of value to me? If so, in what way? That's what I'm asking.

regards,

GR

[DCJS Instructor]

I am not required to have it I am an Instructor.

I have the card in the event I want to work since I also own a Security Company.

The training whether you have the card or not can still be filed with DCJS with no hard card given. The card cost $10.00.....fro the Handgun Endorsement but to get it you must take Security Officer Entry Level, Arrest Authority, which cost $25.00 (2 separate cards) and Entry Level Handgun.

Short Answer yes! It would prove that you have been trained and met the minimum compulsory training standard set by DCJS. THIS IS SOMETHING CITIZENS DO NOT HAVE. However please note that you must follow the Va. Code and Regulations and that the card means nothing other than you have taken the training unless you work for a licensed business with an 11#.

DCJS # 11-5046 & 88-1499

[matthew temkin]

Tom..many thanks.
I'll give you a buzz early in the week.
Matt.

[Gentleman Ranker]

Thanks to all for the replies. It's been educational.

I'm leaning strongly towards doing some training at TDI and/or Blackwater sometime this year; I'll see about adding this to my training plan. I'm still reading the VA statutes and DCJS regulations (they're online) to make sure I understand it all, but it seems that it may be worthwhile.

Thanks again, and

regards,

GR