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Old February 15, 2009, 11:47 PM   #1
Sixer
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Round jammed in my AR-15

The guy I bought my press from threw in about 500 rds of .223 ammo he had reloaded. I was hesitant to shoot it, but judging from the extensive notes and details he gave me on his loads, I decided to give them a try. I literaly inspected each case before taking them to the range.

The first few mags of his reloaded ammo went off without a hitch. Toward the end of my range session I had a round get stuck in the chamber. The bolt was not fully closed, almost as if the round was too "fat" to be chambered all the way. Actually, "stuck" might be an understatement! This thing was lodged in so tight that I eventually had to pry off the lower and yank the bolt back with a screwdriver.

That was the last of his reloaded ammo that I shot. I still have a few hundred rds of it and I hate the thought of having them go to waste. Someone mentioned that the overall length may have been the problem... Anyhow, I would like to get your thoughts on what caused this so I can go through the ammo again and figure out witch rounds I need to pitch. Thanks!
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Old February 16, 2009, 12:08 AM   #2
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im thinking if it was stuck so tight their should be some kind of mark on the round, maybe the neck area? on the bullet? Maybe he didnt get the shoulders set back far enough, and the case part of the round is to long to go in your gun, your gun could be tighter then his, did he full size the brass first, theirs lots of things to look at. Have you ever had any issues with your gun? is it new? ever shot reloads out of it before or factory ammo only? Also you should be able to pull the bullets and atleast use the brass, and maybe the bullets also. No need to just toss them as this would be a wast of money.
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Old February 16, 2009, 01:25 AM   #3
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The brass was clean and the bullet looked fine... but I think you might be right about the shoulders not being set back enough. The round looked like it was smashed up a bit around the shoulder area. My AR is fairly new, only about 500 rds through it, but I've never had any issues with it. I've also never fired reloads thru it before...

I wonder if I could just load up the ammo in a few mags and cylcle it through to make sure they are sized properly. At least then I could take the rounds that wont feed and get a better idea of what's causing the problem. Thanks for the help!
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Old February 16, 2009, 01:39 AM   #4
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Sixer There could be many reasons for this happening, the first that comes to mind is that the case was neck sized only and not full legnth sized. Or it may not have been trimed correctly after first use or it could have been a 5.56 case used with a 223 barrel. It is cheaper to purchase new brass than a new AR. Throw out what is left or use it up in a bolt action rifle.


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Old February 16, 2009, 03:33 AM   #5
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Good point Jim, I ventured into reloading to try and save a little money. Blowing up my AR would definitely defeat that purpose.

I tried to cycle a few rounds thru a little while ago, and got the same result. The bolt wouldn't close all the way and I was not able to eject the round by pulling the charge handle. I got the round out after a bit of prying and noticed that there were some pretty evident scratches on the bullet. These rounds have 55gr fmj bullets... I just can't figure out why they won't feed properly. What, if anything, can I salvage from this ammo?
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Old February 16, 2009, 04:26 AM   #6
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I mentioned this on another thread.If he ran the seater die clear to the shellholder,a crimp function may be taking place.Trying to crimp into a bullet without a cannelure doesn't work out.What it can do is cause the shoulder to collapse.This makes the case larger at the shoulder.The slight taper of the chamber would tighten up on this dia on the way in.The same little bulge can happen at the case mouth.

An intermittent problem would show up if a few long cases were in the bunch
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Old February 16, 2009, 06:05 AM   #7
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hey bud.

First, there's an easier method than prying the bolt back.

Picture this in your head.


Left hand, palm up thumb towards the muzzle: Grasp the hand guards.

Right Hand, palm down thumb toward the muzzle" grasp the charging handle between thumb and fore finger with rest of hand naturally curling around the buffer tube.

Find a firm surface. If it'll mark the butstock, put a rag or towel over it. Now with FORCE and CONVICTION give the butstock a good firm whack and as the stock impacts the towel attempt to pull the charging handle to the rear.

It won't take more than twice for that bolt to yank that case out. I've done this a number of times on stuck cases here in Iraq and it works great, doesn't hurt a thing, and gets you back into the fight ASAP.

Good luck.

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Old February 16, 2009, 08:38 AM   #8
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Add one thing to that, if it has a colapsable stock, colapse it first (we broke a stock locking pin)
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Old February 16, 2009, 03:22 PM   #9
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Thanks Chad! I'll keep that in mind if it ever happens again

You should have seen me the first time at the range, lol. I was NOT happy. I had the buttstock on my hip and two hands (well, fingers) on the charging handle pulling as hard as I could. That thing did not even budge!
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Old February 16, 2009, 03:56 PM   #10
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Longrifles, Inc wrote:
Quote:
Picture this in your head.


Left hand, palm up thumb towards the muzzle: Grasp the hand guards.

Right Hand, palm down thumb toward the muzzle" grasp the charging handle between thumb and fore finger with rest of hand naturally curling around the buffer tube.

Find a firm surface. If it'll mark the butstock, put a rag or towel over it. Now with FORCE and CONVICTION give the butstock a good firm whack and as the stock impacts the towel attempt to pull the charging handle to the rear.

It won't take more than twice for that bolt to yank that case out. I've done this a number of times on stuck cases here in Iraq and it works great, doesn't hurt a thing, and gets you back into the fight ASAP.
Would you mind taking a picture of what you describe and posting it here?
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Old February 16, 2009, 04:05 PM   #11
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This is more common than you think. Not all AR-15 guns are head spaced exactly the same. Some will shoot anything you feed them. Others will only feed reloads that have been shot from that AR-15. I had 3 at one time. Two would feed anything, the other one only wanted reloads from that gun.
There are two ways around this:
1. Collect and reload only rounds you have shot from this AR-15
2. Get a small base sizing die and use that.
Method 1 is a pain in the a**.
Method 2 shortens case life.
Right now I have an ar-15 (5.56 NATO) and an AK-74 (5.56 NATO)
I'm still shooting my old cheap Wolf steel cases in the AK for now. When those are gone, I'll have to see if I can use the same reloads in both guns.

As a side note; many bolt action shooters only re-size the neck. The cases "fire form" to that one rifle. As long as the brass does not get mixed up it works great. This does not work with auto-loaders.

As far as the rounds you have left, you can use those. You will have to check each round by hand to see if it will chamber and lock up. That will take less time than reloading that many rounds. Just take care not to stick an other round.
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Old February 16, 2009, 05:00 PM   #12
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Thanks DLB, that helps. But what about the sizing die I have now? It's the same one that was used to reload the ammo that keeps getting stuck in my gun...

Oh, and can I salvage anything from the rounds that will NOT fit?
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Old February 16, 2009, 11:32 PM   #13
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Sixer, did the seller state what type of dies you have, maybe the die box is marked (less reliable)? The dies should have stamped identifiers on them that should help identify the type of die which could help ID them.

What can be salvaged? The entire cartridge if you trust what this person has told you and written down. Otherwise, possibly everything less the powder. For the quantity of ammo you have (~500 rounds), you might consider a collet type bullet puller if it will work in your press. Using a hollow hammer type inertia puller would be very time consuming. You can deprime (carefully) the primers and reuse them. The brass can be FL sized, checked for length and properly trimmed, chamfered and deburred where required.

I would perform the above on one cartridge, then seat a bullet on that resized case, without primer and powder, and make sure it will cycle. If it does, then you can resize and reload all the brass with your favorite powder using those recycled components.

As for that powder, if you are not completely sure of what was used, I would use it as lawn fertilizer.
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Old February 17, 2009, 10:44 AM   #14
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I've got two 223 REM guns. The AK will shoot anything, so that would not be a problem for me. You can pull the bullets and resize the cases. Powder and primers would be a loss.
It's unlikely that you have a small base resizing die. These can be ordered from RCBS or you can find them on Ebay. These dies were made for just your type of situation.
I just checked my "range brass" 223 loads. They chamber fine in the AK. In the AR they are a bit tight but the gun does lock-up. Not so easy to cycle the gun with the charging handle. Looks like I'm right on the edge.
I've got a High Standard AR. The one I had problems with was a Bushmaster. The two AR's I built would cycle anything. Just got the cheapest barrel I could find. Worst AR I had was a Colt. It had a chrome lined barrel and I was lucky to be able to hit a target at 100 yards with that POS. At least it said Colt on the side so finding a buyer was easy.
A good gunsmith could re-headspace the barrel.
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Old February 17, 2009, 01:06 PM   #15
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Likely another example of oversized .223 rounds.

People are just not believers, but using a cartridge headspace gage to set up your small base die will improve function. Without reducing case life.
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Old February 17, 2009, 01:44 PM   #16
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Quote:
or it could have been a 5.56 case used with a 223 barrel.
After that brass went through that .223 sizing die, it became a .223 case. That's not the problem. I'd never shoot somebody else's reloads.
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Old February 17, 2009, 07:55 PM   #17
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Smae thing here. Every now and again, I will get a reload that goes into the chamber fine, but doesn't want to extract by hand. But the same round will cycle fine when the round is fired.

Could this do damage/blow up my gas tube??
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Old February 17, 2009, 08:08 PM   #18
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There is no external differance between a 223 REM and a 5.56 NATO. It is only the pressure that changes. If you have a 5.59 NATO barrel, shoot either one. If you have a 223 REM barrel shoot only 223 REM loads. All reloading books I've seen only show 223 REM loads.
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Old February 17, 2009, 09:36 PM   #19
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Another example of why the smart handloader never uses nor does he offer for use any handloaded ammo.
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Old February 18, 2009, 03:08 AM   #20
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Dillon makes a neat little case guage that will tell you whether those rounds were sized correctly or not. It's about $20. If you're reloading .223, it would pay to have one.

If they are incorrectly sized, I will tell you about a technique some people have used with success. I am not advocating this, because honestly I do not know all the safety issues involved - BUT - there are folks who will re-size loaded ammo by removing the decapping pin and running the ammo back through the sizing die (adjusted properly of course).

I recently ran in to this problem myself. Different ARs are chambered to slightly different specs. Guns with tight match chambers may not digest ammo, where the exact same ammo might work fine in different gun with a looser chamber. I had a bunch of ammo sized to fit the chamber of one AR, that I'd been using for years without any problem, that would not chamber in a new upper I bought.
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Old February 18, 2009, 04:55 AM   #21
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Thanks for the help! I definitely see a case gauge in my immediate future... For now I think I will just try to salvage the brass and bullets.
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Old February 18, 2009, 06:34 AM   #22
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Sixer, Rounds getting stuck in the chamber is a classic example of your dies not set up right. The base of the die must be against the shell holder when the ram is up. Then lower the ram and turn the die in another 1/4 turn down and lock it down with the lock ring. You will feel in the press handle what is called "cam over" when sizing. I would bet your problems go away.
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Old February 18, 2009, 09:51 AM   #23
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TIM R hit the nail on it's head.
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Old February 18, 2009, 09:59 AM   #24
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Regarding a demonstration;

Sure. I'll try and get some video tomorrow while on the range.


Regarding the 5.56 vs the 223 Remington debacle.

This is one of my posts from another forum that describes all this in more detail than anyone will ever really care about.

Quote:
Ok, noob gonna speak again.

The 5.56mm ball round (M855) runs at 55,000 CUP (copper units of pressure) The 223 Remington was designed to operate at 50,000 CUP.

Differences between the two:

1. Military brass is harder than commercial.
2. Military brass has a heavier wall thickness than commercial.
3. Military brass uses a harder primer cup.
4. Military brass swedges the primer to the brass.*
*this is to help mitigate water from entering the case.
*this is to manage pressure also.
5. Military brass has a smaller powder column (volume) than commercial.

Where folks have run into trouble:

The M855 ball round uses a 62 (61.7 to be anal about it) grain bullet. The lead and throat angle on M-4's, 16's, and 249's are set as such to permit a bit of freebore (machine guns having the longer of the three). This mitigates pressure spikes and greatly reduces the opportunity for brass to start doing weird things as it allows the bullet a bit of room to get moving before it enters the lands.

If a guy has a bolt gun set up to shoot 40-55 grain 223 rounds and he starts jamming the heavier (and longer) M855 bullets into the rifle, you run the risk of elevating chamber pressures. This is what leads to blown primers, ruptured cases, etc. Never mind that military barrel dimensions run towards the middle of SAAMI barrel specs for land/groove dimensions where's commercial barrels can be anywhere. (the accurate barrels from marquee makers typically running on the tighter end of things)

WHY?

The 62 grain projectile is longer and it's now obtaining a healthy purchase into the lands of the barrel as soon as its chambered and ready to fire. (Because the chamber is meant for shorter (lighter) bullets) This elevates pressures as it increases the initial resistance (inertia) that must be overcome to get the bullet moving down the barrel. Imagine pushing a car by hand on level pavement and then running over a speed bump. It’s much easier to have a rolling start already right?

This is where pressure is at its peak and where something has to give. Pressure is lazy and takes the path of least resistance so if it can’t vent off by pushing the bullet its going after the next best thing; your primer pockets and your brass. Another reason is the jacket thickness and the alloy of copper used, all of which are thicker, harder, and heavier than what is typical of commercially available bullets of comparable size.

Proof is in the pudding. Go to a range (like Wilcox, Edson, 314 for instance) where ball ammo is shot all the time. Take a peak at the impact areas. Whole bullets are littered everywhere. Now go to the civilian ranges. You see jackets shredded and tore to bits. If you really want to take the time to saw a bullet in half, do so. Compare it to a light skinned J4 jacketed varmint or target bullet. You'll see it right away. This is what allows M855 to have fair penetration ability against car doors, etc. Peel the lead out of it, peen it flat and perform a hardness test on it. You’ll see.

These are the main reasons why it can be dicey to shoot M855 ball ammo through a bolt gun chambered for the civilian 223. It has nothing to do with cartridge case dimensions being a couple thousandths different here or there. If I took ten pieces of commercially manufactured brass from ten different lots they'd all be different and it’d take an optical comparator equipped with metrology software to even see the differences. SAAMI H/S tolerance put a GO gauge at a "zero" datum and the NO GO at +.006" (two thicknesses of notebook paper basically) So a guy can look at this from two perspectives.

One is a "Zero plus six thousandths” tolerance and the other is a +/- .003" tolerance (the dumber of the two choices IMO) Point is if you have a window of 0 to .006" or a window of .003” in either direction you still have plenty of room for a .001" deviation in cartridge dimension.

Makes sense now? Has nothing to do with the cartridge. It's the chambering in the rifle.

I know this because I've built a lot of bolt guns for customers set up to shoot heavy 223 bullets (which require a fast twist barrel) and some (meaning customers) have shot the M855 round just fine because the throat is longer to accommodate the longer bullets. They also shoot well because the M855 bullet requires a faster twist barrel to stabilize. This is because the bullets CG is further forward (creating a design induced instability) than commercial bullets of comparable weight. The exceptionally high rotational RPM's of the projectile stabilize it adequately for this type of intended design “flaw”. At 3100fps the bullet is rotating at almost 320,000 RPM. This is why the round has the reputation for being a “tumbler” when it enters soft tissue.

If you find a bolt gun that'll safely fire M855 your still probably going to see poor accuracy because the bullet isn't spinning at nearly enough RPM to stabilize adequately. Any commercially available bolt gun set up with a short throat for light bullets is going to have a 1-11 to 1-14 rate of twist. It may shoot well enough at 100 yards but remember that this cartridge is intended to be able to hit a man size silhouette at 500-600 meters.

I apologize for the long winded dissertation.
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