Best shotgun shell for self defense in an apartment.

[skeezix]

you will likely lose everything you have ever earned or will earn, and you might end up in a not so nice room with bars for windows and lousy neighbors.

But they have a built-in dating service

[Kmar40]

Ahhh, yes. The babbling of fools as they agree with each other.

[Logjam]

Karm40; sorry, but I don't get your drift.

[armsmaster270]

I would go with # 4 or 2 Heavishot.

[Creeper]

You might want to look at the Baschieri & Pellagri "baby magnum" round.

It's loaded with 1.5 oz. of Italian '0' shot at a bit under 1300fps. '0' Italian works out to a .154" diameter... a little larger than #2 shot.
It's kinda like the discontinued, #2 shot, Federal "personal defense" loading... but with a few hundred fps more muzzle velocity.
Penetration with the Federal load was (arguably) around 6.5-9 inches in geletin, so this should be a bit better... and with the "Gordon System" casing, recoil is reduced somewhat. (You can read all about it on the B&P site)

Right now, you can order it direct from Baschieri & Pellagri USA (AKA Kaltron-Pettibone)... around $82 a case of 250 with free shipping.

C

[Anticonn]

Re the shotgun in the truck, that hit the victim after going thru two pieces of shaped 22 guage steel or more. It still nearly killed him, I am willing to bet a lot of the shot was deformed and deflected by the the door post. think about that same wound without the two layers of steel?

And that is pretty much the point I've been trying to make, it passed through a steel auto body, and severely injured and disfigured him.

There is no appreciable gain to safety using birdshot. I'm sure it works just fine for defense, but it's not any less lethal after passing through barriers. All the anecdotal evidence posted in this thread and the other one advocating birdshot cite examples of it penetrating apartment-type barriers with ease. So what's the advantage here? If the shot is in the wad at short ranges and will make a great big hole in the BG... now you're firing something analogous to a slug into your neighbors' apartment

I'm sticking to my 3.5" 00B, I simply cannot accept the arguments made in favor of selecting birdshot. There's no reason NOT to use it if it's what you have on hand, but given a choice personally I select the biggest, heaviest, meanest bastard loads I can get. I've been in an attempted home invasion and shooting, I'm not taking chances.

[BlackFeather]

Estate cartridge high velocity #6 shot... more power but still light bird shot... its what I use and I live in an apartment... either that or just 6 shot... a turkey load would work as well...

[cptnjm]

I found some Winchester 12 gauge 2 3/4" #6 rabbit and squirrel load in my Dad's gun cabinet. According to the panels on the box, these look to be a bit heavier than #6 birdshot.

Am I correct in my belief that these would be more effective than birdshot, but certainly not have the wall penetration capability of #4 buckshot?

Please advise, and thanks for the great discussion.

[Creeper]

Birdshot and buckshot are two different things cptnjm.

#6 birdshot is not 2 numbers away from #4 buckshot. #4 buck is over twice the diameter of #6 birdshot.

Borrowing from some easy to grab Wikipidia charts...

Buckshot

• 0000 ("quadruple-ought") .38" (9.7 mm)
• 000 ("triple-ought") .36" (9.1 mm)
• 00 ("double-ought") .33" (8.4 mm)
• 0 ("ought") .32" (8.1 mm)
• 1 .30" (7.6 mm)
• 2 .27" (6.9 mm)
• 3 .25" (6.4 mm)
• 4 .24" (6 mm)

Birdshot

• BBB .190" (4.83 mm)
• BB .180" (4.57 mm)
• B .170" (4.32 mm)
• 1 .160" (4.06 mm)
• 2 .150" (3.81 mm)
• 3 .140" (3.56 mm)
• 4 .130" (3.30 mm)
• 5 .120" (3.05 mm)
• 6 .110" (2.79 mm)
• 7½ .095" (2.41 mm)
• 8 .090" (2.29 mm)
• 8½ .085" (2.15 mm)
• 9 .080" (2.03 mm)

[rc]

One shot size is not for every situation. Sometimes you shoot 7 1/2 or 8s and sometimes you shoot 4's or 6's for birds. Same thing can be said for self defense situations. In a rural area with lots of room between houses and the distinct possibility that you might need longer shots, buckshot is probably the best self defense choice. However, in a dense urban setting you are liable for every pellet from every shell you fire. Hit a bystander, go to jail for a long time or get sued by that person. If I was living in an apartment, I would use standard handgun rounds like .38, 9mm, .40 or .45 with hollow points or birdshot from a shotgun. At contact distances birdshot will penetrate a 2X4 no problem. It will break ribs and shred internal organs without over penetration. There is nothing "wrong" with "choosing" birdshot for self defense if you understand the correct application of that load in a defense situation. Most likely just having a gun will disuade some stupid @!$#! from trying to harm you. More important than load chosen is being familiar with your gun so you can use it confidently under stress without it becoming a liability to you! Practice by shooting skeet or trap at a fairly rapid pace where you are loading the magazine, cycling the action, engaging/disengating the safety, slide release/bolt release and feel completely comfortable with whatever gun or guns you choose even if you were completely in the dark and had to handle your weapon(s) by feel. The worse thing you can do is to have a gun, but fumble with it during a self defense situation and have it turned on you. During a burglary, your guns left available will be made ready for your return. This happend to my parents who returned to find my dad's shotgun laying across the bed! Some other guns were stolen because he was careless with storage. Each of us has to decide what's best for our particular situation. Asking for advice from some strangers on the net telling us what's best for them tells me you are not fully proficient with your weapon yet!

[556A2]

At say, 15 feet a load of birdshot will nearly tear a man in two.

There is so much BS in that statement its unreal. I've had #6 heavy dove loads that failed to fully penetrate a large gray squirrel, and it required a 2nd shot to kill it as it took off after the first COM hit with ease.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...d8a90a02d7f097

Go here, read it twice, rethink your statement, and then read it again. Don't try to discredit the testing method as this is the same ballistics testing protocol used by the FBI.

Birdshot is for birds, buckshot is for thin-skinned medium-sized game..... like humans. Humans are dangerous game, and you need to treat them like it. If you draw your gun on someone, it better be life or death.

[Wleoff]

A buddy of mine, who's a retired Army colonel, recently wanted to buy a 12 gauge shotgun for home defense. I've got everything from #00 military loads, TAP self defense loads, #1 buck, #4 buck to target loads, dove loads and cowboy action loads. All 2 3/4". We spent half a day shooting all the different loads in a Win 1300 pump, a Stoeger coach gun, a Stevens 311, a Winchester 1887 and a Win 1897. Most rounds were thru the pump and the coach guns because their configurations seemed more applicable. He decided on a coach gun loaded with # 4 or #6 bird shot.

You really need to take some scrap sheetrock out and see what the loads do to it. Birdshot #6 at 10 yards will tear a hole thru sheetrock about the size of a paper plate. Just my opinion, one should fire at least 100 rounds thru a shotgun with their defense load before they use it for protection.

We took a photo of four the shotguns we tried. We didn't photograph the Win 1300 because it's kind of ugly. Wish we had also photographed the targets. Me, I keep a Win 1300 pump loaded with #4 birdshot in the house. I just like the sound of the pump when one cocks it.

[IZZY]

If I was living in an apartment, I would use standard handgun rounds like .38, 9mm, .40 or .45 with hollow points

sorry, the HP will go through a lot of drywall...they tend to get plugged and not expand when going through houses...

I lke #4 buck in an apt. but you still have to be careful when/ if and at what you'd shoot at.

[cptnjm]

Creeper,
Thanks for the detailed answer with ballistics columns. Very helpful.

[darkgael]

I've had #6 heavy dove loads that failed to fully penetrate a large gray squirrel, and it required a 2nd shot to kill it as it took off after the first COM hit with ease.

I don't doubt your experience - having to shoot twice. But - relative to this discussion - was that shot at the squirrel taken at 15 ft., similar to the distance in a hallway in a home? If it was, and you hit the squirrel square with a pattern that was a foot wide and contained more than 250 pellets, then you have armored squirrels.
Pete

[tomgun]

i built 6 4x6 drywall sections with studs and wallboard on both sides.
private property range.
set them up one behind the other 8 ft apart
started with #9 bird shot.15 feet from the first,12ga mossberg.
results,buck00 went thru all 6 walls!
#4 buck went thru 4 walls
#7 bird went thru 2 walls
#9 bird went thru the first side of wall 1 and dropped inside.
the rule of thumb is the more pellets less penetration.
all shells were 2/34 non magnum

[darkgael]

Tom: Do you remember what the effect was on the drywall with the #7 and #9 shot as opposed to the others and aside from penetration? Lots of little holes? One large section punched out? Shredding?
Pete

[Old Grump]

I don't doubt your experience - having to shoot twice. But - relative to this discussion - was that shot at the squirrel taken at 15 ft., similar to the distance in a hallway in a home? If it was, and you hit the squirrel square with a pattern that was a foot wide and contained more than 250 pellets, then you have armored squirrels.
Pete

In his defense he didn't say 15' but if you get a 12" pattern at 15' with #6 shot there is something terribly wrong with using that gun for hunting, short barrel, no choke and no shot cup?

I shot a big gray squirrel at 30' with #7 1/2 and it penetrated his hide but not far into the body, when I skinned him all the shot fell out but he was dead just the same, squirrels really are tough little buggers and is why I prefer my 22.

My Mossberg 20 gauge w/22" barrel puts #4 shot in 1 1/2" at 24', and my Winchester 12 gauge w/18 1/2" barrel puts #4 shot in 3" at 15'. Different guns for different uses.

Last winter I finally decided to try a .410. Don't know why I never shot one before but I hadn't. I set seven water filled milk jugs out the night before when it was below zero, next morning at +8 degrees I shot one with a slug and the next 3 with #4 shot out of the .410, one with a 38 spcl loaded with 158 gr LRN's, one with my 20 gauge and #4 shot and the last jug with my Winchester semi-auto 12gauge with #6

My driveway is 24' wide so I must have been shooting around 18'-20' because of the snow bank. I do not recommend a .410 but both slug and shot at that distance were a big surprise because that hard froze ice got pulverized and the middle third of the first 4 jugs were gone, just a little crushed ice left in the top and bottom of the jugs. My 12 and 20 emptied the jugs, the 38 did not penetrate to the other side of the jug and I had maybe 2 cups of crushed ice along its path. Another reason why if I have to get out of bed at night I grab a shotgun, usually the Mossberg, I trust my pump.

Ice doesn't equate to flesh and bone and there isn't much shot (10 pellets) but still 10 pellets moving better than 1100 fps out of my brothers .410 was impressive. Makes me not worry much just because I am using a 20 gauge instead of a 3 1/2" 12 gauge loaded for grizzly.

Just a last note on some really good stuff being said on other forums, one man said you pivot when you are shooting skeet to make the shot leave the barrel faster. He was corrected by another genius who assured him the reason you pivoted was to elongate the spread of the shot string thus increasing the chances of a hit. I'm only guessing here but neither of them have ever shot skeet or shot at a live bird and don't know about tracking the target. I'm also guessing that their wealth of shotgun lore comes from video games and movies where a sawed off shotgun is as lethal to the bad guy as a 105MM artillery shell.

[Creeper]

Originally Posted by cptnjm

Creeper,
Thanks for the detailed answer with ballistics columns. Very helpful.

No problem cptnjm. It dawned on me after that post that you probably knew that information already, but as a lot of shotgunners don't, I let it bump.

These "best" threads always crack me up. It starts with a (usually) simple, honest question, but because it's prefaced with "best" the opinions can (and will) be all over the map.
A combination of people who actually know what they're about... and people who think FPS video games are a primer for real life conflict. The latter I'm afraid appears to be far too prevalent.

When it comes to discussions about tactical/combat/HD/LEO/defense/sidewalk commando/zombie ammo... the debate almost always becomes heated and quite frankly, silly.

Very few people in these discussions have ever actually shot a human being. One would think, that based on this fact, folks would buffer their comments with a dash of common sense or objectivity... but frequently, such is not the case.
Yes, there are studies enough to fill a library on wound ballistics and most are approached in a logical and scientific manor. They all say that various sizes of buckshot are the preferable loading for maximum penetration and cavity creation... and lets face it, with most anyone, bigger is better, yes?

But... as the opening post of this thread might indicate, bigger is not always perceived to be better. There are so many variables to home defense or self-defense that we could fill another library with them.

I'm a firm believer that an individuals circumstances should dictate their use of a particular ammunition. What works for you, or works for me may not work for a gal in an apartment... or a guy living on a farm.

I'm also a firm believer that people need to think a bit before they speak. Opinion, even opinion based on first-person empirical evidence is often of limited value if the circumstance is unique to that evidence.

I can go on, but lets face it, this little commentary is nothing more than another opinion... carrying with it no more weight or gravitas than any other to be found.
Take it for what it is... another talking head on the interwebnet.

C

[IZZY]

( tomgun) I built 6 4x6 drywall sections with studs and wallboard on both sides.
private property range.
set them up one behind the other 8 ft apart
started with #9 bird shot.15 feet from the first,12ga mossberg.
results,buck00 went thru all 6 walls!
#4 buck went thru 4 walls
#7 bird went thru 2 walls
#9 bird went thru the first side of wall 1 and dropped inside.
the rule of thumb is the more pellets less penetration.
all shells were 2/34 non magnum

Good stuff. Add in cabnits, or a dresser, an oven and hopfully NOT a neighbor and that's exactly what to expect.

[Tucker 1371]

Generally speaking, from a military perspective, we don't worry about overpenetration. We usually select with barrier penetration in mind - vehicles, light body armor, etc.

I'm well aware of that. I personally wouldn't use 00 if I were living in an apartment. I would be a little worried with #1 and not so much with anything less than that, #4 would be my lower limit.

I have no faith in birdshot to immediately stop a threat, not saying it won't kill a threat but I think there's a good enough possibility that the guy could take a shot and keep coming that I couldn't use it.

[556A2]

You really need to take some scrap sheetrock out and see what the loads do to it. Birdshot #6 at 10 yards will tear a hole thru sheetrock about the size of a paper plate. Just my opinion, one should fire at least 100 rounds thru a shotgun with their defense load before they use it for protection.

Sheetrock doesn't matter if you don't miss your target. Read the link I posted because that is what #6 will pretty much do in human flesh. You have to realize if someone is trying to kill you, there is no such thing as overkill. If you are ultra worried about overpenetration, then #4 buckshot is the bare minimum to use. Remember, the US Govt. spent millions of dollars to come up with the best ballistic testing to make sure their field agents don't have issues with stopping a deadly threat..... its best to take notes of what they found.

I do agree with shooting a lot of shells of your HD round so you will know what the pattern will do.

I don't doubt your experience - having to shoot twice. But - relative to this discussion - was that shot at the squirrel taken at 15 ft., similar to the distance in a hallway in a home? If it was, and you hit the squirrel square with a pattern that was a foot wide and contained more than 250 pellets, then you have armored squirrels.

It was roughly 15-18 yards away using a 12 gauge 870 with a Modified choke. The ammo was Remington Heavy Dove #6 1 1/8oz at 1255FPS. To be fair, it was very old & very large. I should have cooked it in a stew due to how stringy, and rough the meat was. :barf: I have since switched to the Fiocchi Golden Pheasant #5 for squirrels.

[Nnobby45]

The shot stayed together tight enough to take a big chunk of muscle out of his elbow, so it obviously penetrated. So birdshot can do severe damage at close range.

The extreme close range effectiveness of birdshot isn't controversial. It almost has the effect of a single projectile, if not more damageing.

It's once the shot starts to spread that penetration drops off accordingly. I've shot quail with 7 1/2 shot and found shot under the skin on both exit and entrance side.

A shotgun with buck has enough limitations re: effective range without restricting it even further by using birdshot good only for spittin' distance and slightly beyond.

Yes, I know, some Bubbas' take a load of birdshot and quit and don't want to play anymore. Some need more persuasion that they're incapacitated.

[.351winchester]

http://www.cabelas.com/p-0068429217095a.shtml
This, was made for it. Some mighty damn expensive birdshot, IMO (size T?)
.20, didn't know bird came that big, is that a normally turkey shot pellet size? I though BB was pretty big.

I'd simply say 1,4, or 0 Buck is safer than 00, 000, full or sabot slug. If they hit COM, probably all above would be getting dug out on a slab; and at apartment distances, any SG load makes a low spreading, "rat hole" entrance wound (IIRC, the official term)

How about the MPB Quik Shok dum-dum slug (same as the old Triton handgun round and now CCI rimfire ctg)? Cant imagine those 3 pieces having a ton of energy after splitting off on building materials. Not as much as pellets continuing a straight path (?)(Not a smart man esp. regarding physics)

[darkgael]

Old G -

if you get a 12" pattern at 15'

My mistake about that pattern size. I've never patterned a shotgun at 15 feet. I was assuming a generic spread of about two inches a yard - for a Cyl choked gun. At 15 feet, especially with any choke, yeah, it would probably be smaller than 12".
Pete