unburnt powder in my barrel. is this a problem.

jburrl90 · March 17, 2013, 07:17 AM

Thanks everyone for the help with the head space issue in my 30 herrett.

But now I'm having another problem. The only powder givingme good groupsis imr 4198 but its leaving unburnt powder in the barrel. I've loaded lighter loads and it looks likethere's more powder in the barrel than with hotter ones. For example. I'm loading 110 hollow points over 17 grains of imr 4198. I'm getting inch groups but what about all that powder left in my barrel. With 150 grain bullets over 20 grains of imr 4198 I get the same one inch groups and a lot less unburnt powder but its stillthere. Is this bad? How can I fix this.

I've tried. H110 and lil gun and the gun hates them. It definitelylikestheimr 4198 . I'm getting. 4 inch groups with the other powders. Is there a solution to this problem. Will thatunburnt Powder hurt anything being in there when I shoot again.

Thanks again for all the help and advise.

Nathan · March 17, 2013, 07:37 AM

Looks like there are others powders which might be faster that would fix this issue. I would look for load data with 2400 or one of the AA powders in this range.

Sounds like your current powders are just too slow. It makes a dirty gun and likely will hurt accuracy.

Misssissippi Dave · March 18, 2013, 06:47 AM

When loading light loads in pistol calibers I have found unburned powder often. Increasing the amount of powder reduced the amount of unburned powder and going above mid-range gave me a clean burn. I would expect the same would happen with rifle loads. Years ago I noticed the same thing with shotgun loads. You will find as you work up a load many times there will be points where the groups tighten up then spread out as you increase the powder than tighten up again. When you get close to or at max loads normally your groups will just keep spreading because of spikes in the load.

Find where the groups are best between min. and max loads. Load at the higher levels if you want a better burn or use a faster powder at mid-range or higher to get a light load and a clean burn. Loads with a big spread between min. and max. levels tend to give you at least two areas where it will give you good groups. The unburned powder will not normally give you problems shooting unless you are shooting a lot of rounds between cleanings. Sometimes you will get a cleaner burn just by using a magnum primer with the light load even if the powder doesn't call for one. You do have to start at the lowest charge and work up again when you switch the primer type. YMMV.

**Mike Irwin** · March 18, 2013, 07:43 AM

Powder is almost never completely burned in any firearm.

If you're seeing a few grains here and there in your barrel, it's not an issue.

If you want to get an idea of how much powder isn't being burned, spread out a white sheet in front of the muzzle before you go shooting next time.

243winxb · March 18, 2013, 08:24 AM

Quote:

. I'm loading 110 hollow points over 17 grains of imr 4198.

The powder charge is below the starting load. Use more powder. Are you using a rifle primer? http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

Hammerhead · March 18, 2013, 01:34 PM

What primer?
Do you have good neck tension and a good crimp?
Heavier charges will almost always burn more completely.

How hot do you want to go?
Is there any load data for SR 4759? (a case filling, easy igniting powder, works well in .30-30 pistols)
I know one guy who uses H335 and gets good accuracy and impressive fireballs.

**Unclenick** · March 18, 2013, 02:34 PM

As the others have indicated, unburned grains present in the barrel is a low pressure sign or a choice of powder too slow burning for the application. In this case it's the former. The primer backing out, which you mentioned in your other thread, is another low pressure sign. Normally, a primer backs out during firing, then is reseated as the case head is forced rearward after the powder has had time to develop pressure. If the pressure is too low to back the head up, you get that high primer left at ejection.

In the case of your 17 grain load, QuickLOAD estimates the pressure at around 15,000 psi. This is a 40,000 psi cartridge, so that's way down there. Richard Lee's Modern Reloading has 21.5 grains of IMR4198 to start and 24.3 grains maximum, with the COL not below 2.02". That's a reasonable range, and this book tends to be conservative. Nonetheless, work up slowly from 21.5 grains while watching for pressure signs. This is a modest pressure cartridge so the mild primers like the Federal 210 or the KVB7 would be good primer choices.

In general, raising powder charge or using a heavier bullet will raise pressure. When you went with 17 grains of powder and a 110 grain bullet as compared to 20 grains with a 150 grain bullet (about 30,000 psi), you did two things to lower pressure at once. Each bullet weight will have a different range of appropriate powder charges, with heavier bullets having the lower range.

For example, for your 150 grain bullet, Lee's book suggests 19 grains IMR4198 minimum and 21.3 grains max at a COL of 2.32". So you were about in the middle of the range there, and would need about 22 grains behind the 110 grain bullet at 2.02" to operate at similar pressure.

243winxb · March 18, 2013, 04:23 PM

30-30 or 30 Herret takes a Large Rifle primer, i think?

**Unclenick** · March 18, 2013, 04:45 PM

Yep. My bad. I started thinking little when another post pulled on my attention. I went back and fixed it.

Sport45 · March 18, 2013, 08:35 PM

Speaking of unburnt powder, do a few kernels of powder left in the bore present a hazard to the firearm for subsequent shots? Do they abrade the barrel, get "ironed" into the rifling, or just blow out in front of the bullet?

**Unclenick** · March 18, 2013, 08:45 PM

They mainly blow out. There are some super high speed videos of this. During the bullet jump to the lands, a certain amount of gas bypasses it, and that's what is doing the blowing out in the ones I'm thinking of. If you seat into the throat, the bullet will push on it. That might iron some into the bore, but a lot of folks, including a lot of benchrest shooters, have shot with high accuracy that way, so the effects can't possibly be critical.

jburrl90 · March 18, 2013, 09:29 PM

I'm using a Winchester large rifle primer. And the loads that I stated in my first post got mixed up between the two powders I'm using and the two different weight bullets. I'm not the greatest at getting stuff on paper the way its in my head.

I want to load the 110 grain bullets for woodchuck and coyote. And the 150s for deer and possibly bear. I picked up a box of hornady 130 grain soft points to try too. I don't care how hot or mild the loads are as long as they group good. Around an inch would make me happy. Tighter would be better.

I may have found a load it likes. 110 grain bullet over 23 grains of imr 4198. I got a three shot group of just over an inch. I loaded some with 23.5 grains of 4198 and had a 2.5 inch group. And with 22.5 grains I had a 3 inch group. I'm shooting from 75 yards off a sand bag With an 8 power scope. With these hotter loads there's a lot less powder left in the barrel. And what is there is mostly burnt. So thanks for telling me to go hotter. Although I don't understand why more powder in the cartridge Burns it cleaner.

jburrl90 · March 20, 2013, 05:35 PM

I've finally settled on a load. The gun absolutely loves the 130 grain hornady soft points loaded over 22 grains of imr 4198. Its shooting cloverleafs at 75 yards. No critter I plan on hunting can escape a group like that. Thanks for the tips and advice guys.

March 17, 2013, 07:17 AM	#1
jburrl90 Junior Member Join Date: March 11, 2013 Posts: 9	unburnt powder in my barrel. is this a problem. Thanks everyone for the help with the head space issue in my 30 herrett. But now I'm having another problem. The only powder givingme good groupsis imr 4198 but its leaving unburnt powder in the barrel. I've loaded lighter loads and it looks likethere's more powder in the barrel than with hotter ones. For example. I'm loading 110 hollow points over 17 grains of imr 4198. I'm getting inch groups but what about all that powder left in my barrel. With 150 grain bullets over 20 grains of imr 4198 I get the same one inch groups and a lot less unburnt powder but its stillthere. Is this bad? How can I fix this. I've tried. H110 and lil gun and the gun hates them. It definitelylikestheimr 4198 . I'm getting. 4 inch groups with the other powders. Is there a solution to this problem. Will thatunburnt Powder hurt anything being in there when I shoot again. Thanks again for all the help and advise.

March 18, 2013, 07:43 AM	#4
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Powder is almost never completely burned in any firearm. If you're seeing a few grains here and there in your barrel, it's not an issue. If you want to get an idea of how much powder isn't being burned, spread out a white sheet in front of the muzzle before you go shooting next time. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 18, 2013, 02:34 PM	#7
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	As the others have indicated, unburned grains present in the barrel is a low pressure sign or a choice of powder too slow burning for the application. In this case it's the former. The primer backing out, which you mentioned in your other thread, is another low pressure sign. Normally, a primer backs out during firing, then is reseated as the case head is forced rearward after the powder has had time to develop pressure. If the pressure is too low to back the head up, you get that high primer left at ejection. In the case of your 17 grain load, QuickLOAD estimates the pressure at around 15,000 psi. This is a 40,000 psi cartridge, so that's way down there. Richard Lee's Modern Reloading has 21.5 grains of IMR4198 to start and 24.3 grains maximum, with the COL not below 2.02". That's a reasonable range, and this book tends to be conservative. Nonetheless, work up slowly from 21.5 grains while watching for pressure signs. This is a modest pressure cartridge so the mild primers like the Federal 210 or the KVB7 would be good primer choices. In general, raising powder charge or using a heavier bullet will raise pressure. When you went with 17 grains of powder and a 110 grain bullet as compared to 20 grains with a 150 grain bullet (about 30,000 psi), you did two things to lower pressure at once. Each bullet weight will have a different range of appropriate powder charges, with heavier bullets having the lower range. For example, for your 150 grain bullet, Lee's book suggests 19 grains IMR4198 minimum and 21.3 grains max at a COL of 2.32". So you were about in the middle of the range there, and would need about 22 grains behind the 110 grain bullet at 2.02" to operate at similar pressure. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; March 18, 2013 at 04:46 PM.

March 18, 2013, 04:23 PM	#8
243winxb Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,730	30-30 or 30 Herret takes a Large Rifle primer, i think? Last edited by 243winxb; March 18, 2013 at 04:38 PM.

March 18, 2013, 04:45 PM	#9
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Yep. My bad. I started thinking little when another post pulled on my attention. I went back and fixed it. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

March 17, 2013, 07:37 AM	#2
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,326	Looks like there are others powders which might be faster that would fix this issue. I would look for load data with 2400 or one of the AA powders in this range. Sounds like your current powders are just too slow. It makes a dirty gun and likely will hurt accuracy.

March 18, 2013, 06:47 AM	#3
Misssissippi Dave Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2009 Posts: 1,411	When loading light loads in pistol calibers I have found unburned powder often. Increasing the amount of powder reduced the amount of unburned powder and going above mid-range gave me a clean burn. I would expect the same would happen with rifle loads. Years ago I noticed the same thing with shotgun loads. You will find as you work up a load many times there will be points where the groups tighten up then spread out as you increase the powder than tighten up again. When you get close to or at max loads normally your groups will just keep spreading because of spikes in the load. Find where the groups are best between min. and max loads. Load at the higher levels if you want a better burn or use a faster powder at mid-range or higher to get a light load and a clean burn. Loads with a big spread between min. and max. levels tend to give you at least two areas where it will give you good groups. The unburned powder will not normally give you problems shooting unless you are shooting a lot of rounds between cleanings. Sometimes you will get a cleaner burn just by using a magnum primer with the light load even if the powder doesn't call for one. You do have to start at the lowest charge and work up again when you switch the primer type. YMMV.

March 18, 2013, 01:34 PM	#6
Hammerhead Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2004 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,432	What primer? Do you have good neck tension and a good crimp? Heavier charges will almost always burn more completely. How hot do you want to go? Is there any load data for SR 4759? (a case filling, easy igniting powder, works well in .30-30 pistols) I know one guy who uses H335 and gets good accuracy and impressive fireballs.

March 18, 2013, 08:35 PM	#10
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	Speaking of unburnt powder, do a few kernels of powder left in the bore present a hazard to the firearm for subsequent shots? Do they abrade the barrel, get "ironed" into the rifling, or just blow out in front of the bullet? __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

March 18, 2013, 08:45 PM	#11
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	They mainly blow out. There are some super high speed videos of this. During the bullet jump to the lands, a certain amount of gas bypasses it, and that's what is doing the blowing out in the ones I'm thinking of. If you seat into the throat, the bullet will push on it. That might iron some into the bore, but a lot of folks, including a lot of benchrest shooters, have shot with high accuracy that way, so the effects can't possibly be critical. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

March 18, 2013, 09:29 PM	#12
jburrl90 Junior Member Join Date: March 11, 2013 Posts: 9	I'm using a Winchester large rifle primer. And the loads that I stated in my first post got mixed up between the two powders I'm using and the two different weight bullets. I'm not the greatest at getting stuff on paper the way its in my head. I want to load the 110 grain bullets for woodchuck and coyote. And the 150s for deer and possibly bear. I picked up a box of hornady 130 grain soft points to try too. I don't care how hot or mild the loads are as long as they group good. Around an inch would make me happy. Tighter would be better. I may have found a load it likes. 110 grain bullet over 23 grains of imr 4198. I got a three shot group of just over an inch. I loaded some with 23.5 grains of 4198 and had a 2.5 inch group. And with 22.5 grains I had a 3 inch group. I'm shooting from 75 yards off a sand bag With an 8 power scope. With these hotter loads there's a lot less powder left in the barrel. And what is there is mostly burnt. So thanks for telling me to go hotter. Although I don't understand why more powder in the cartridge Burns it cleaner.

March 20, 2013, 05:35 PM	#13
jburrl90 Junior Member Join Date: March 11, 2013 Posts: 9	I've finally settled on a load. The gun absolutely loves the 130 grain hornady soft points loaded over 22 grains of imr 4198. Its shooting cloverleafs at 75 yards. No critter I plan on hunting can escape a group like that. Thanks for the tips and advice guys.