The Marine's and their "poor" choice of Shotguns

Blain · December 31, 2000, 07:50 PM

Now I'm not saying that the marines are picking horrible guns to use in combat, but they always surprise me with the gun they end up choosing. It seems for each time they pick a gun, there are 2-3 other guns I could view as a better overall choice for them.

Take Vietnam for instance, the first time they issued a requirement challenge for the shotgun manufacturers to make them a good reliable gun that fit all these rigid requirements. For some reason they ended up choosing the Mossy 500. Now don't get me wrong the 500 is a fine gun, yet compared to even an 870 even it is not as durable, reliable, or as high quality. This is from past experiences along from the testimonies of many people who are intimately familiar with both guns, from collectors to law officers. How then did the Mossy get chosen as the standard weapon? I still don't see it.

Forget Vietnam, today, with all we now about shotguns now the military did another test/challenge for shotgun manufacturers. And they end up choosing a Benelli auto loader??? Now call me crazy but I don't see the logic in this choice.

Now I'm not downing Benelli at all as they make fine weapons, however as a military durable, gun.... I don't know. First off I can't see the appeal of the auto loader. First of all they aren’t reliable and are prone to jam, ESP with slugs and specialty ammunition that the military is destined to use. Thirdly they tend to stop working properly in harsh conditions that the army will be sure to encounter.

Now I know that the M-4 can go pump too, so why spend all the extra money on a pump/auto when you won't even be using the auto. There is no reason for the military to need an auto. For one it’s not much faster, and secondly it’s not nearly reliable enough. The ONLY feature on the Benelli I can see as beneficial in any way over even the Mossy 500 is the adjustable stock, that’s it.

You want to know what gun I think deserves to be chosen? The Neosted http://users.iafrica.com/n/nj/njj741t/index.html
2 barreled pump shotgun with 2 separate magazine chambers of 6 rounds (12 total) so you can fill one tube with buck and the other with slugs. Neo has been looking for someone to manufacture their shotguns yet no one has stepped up to the plate yet. Take a look at this site and see why this shotgun is the future of military shotgunning.

Yet failing even that shotgun you can get a nice combat 870 at such a lower cost. I don't see why the 870s weren't enlisted into the service long ago, they are a fine shotgun, till something like Neosted comes around. Yet compared to the M-4 Benelli, I would MUCH rather depend on the good ol 870. Someone needs to set those Marines right.

EchoFiveMike · December 31, 2000, 08:30 PM

I don't know about the Moss 500, but I've only handled Rem 870's when I've been issued shotguns. Of course, in 8+ years of service, I've only used a SG four times. I've brought my 590 on urban ops once, when there was the very real possibility of running into drug addicts and homeless people in our training area, but that's it. Haven't seen the new XM1077 yet, will report when I get my hand on one. Semper Fidelis..Ken M

Dave McC · January 1, 2001, 11:16 AM

S'funny thing how non issue shotguns end up in combat zones. I saw 97s, 12s, A-5s, 870s etc during my youthful travels in South East Asia.

Going on News footage of stuff since Desert Storm, there's lots of 870s in military hands,whether or not they're milspec.

Hardin · January 1, 2001, 01:45 PM

helping a wounded buddy, or while holding a light or driving,hanging on to a bouncing jeep? I hold no brief for ANY shotgun, but I can certainly see why the auto is preferable. As much of a hell as the military put the pistols thru before choosing the Beretta, I bet that they are well-convinced that the Benelli is quite reliable enough

ajacobs · January 1, 2001, 05:28 PM

You want to know what gun I think deserves to be chosen? The Neosted http://users.iafrica.com/n/nj/njj741t/index.html
2 barreled pump shotgun with 2 separate magazine chambers of 6 rounds (12 total) so you can fill one tube with buck and the other with slugs. Neo has been looking for someone to manufacture their shotguns yet no one has stepped up to the plate yet. Take a look at this site and see why this shotgun is the future of military shotgunning.

Only one barrel, it is just on the bottom.

Blain · January 1, 2001, 05:34 PM

Umm thats what I said in my origonal post, big guy.

Robe · January 1, 2001, 06:08 PM

Blain- I have been reading your posts and replies to others on this forum. You seem to have a very aggressive style of commenting and making your point. Just curious why you are so aggressive?

Correia · January 1, 2001, 09:30 PM

Just a clarification, I think your mixing up the M3 and the M4. The M3 is the one that is pump/auto. The M4 is auto only. The M3 works off of the standard Ben. recoil system while the M4 is dual piston gas operated.

And I think that the Neostead looks pretty cool too. It would be nice to see them built stateside.

DML · January 3, 2001, 04:18 AM

I personally prefer the 870, but the funny thing is that the Mossberg 500 USA and the later 590-A1 were the only shotguns to survive the military shoot to destruction test.

I haven't seen the actual test, but a "reliable source" told me that it involved firing 3000 rounds through a number of guns without any cleaning. Then the guns were field stripped, the parts tossed in a box, mixed up and the guns were put back together with what ever came out of the box. Another 3000 rounds were fired. It seems that the Mossbergs were the only ones to survive. So much for durability.

I know of at least one police dept. that has used Mossberg 590s for many years. Their training guns have 10,000 plus rounds through them and they hold up just fine.

One more thing. ALL of Mossbergs parts are field replacable without special tools. If you crunch the magazine tube on a 870, you have a single shot that has to go back to the factory. The same goes for the ejector. It can be replaced by a gunsmith, but it's not that easy or quick.

I still prefer the 870. It just feels better to me.

Gunfighter · January 3, 2001, 11:39 AM

I used a Moss 590 in a shooting last year. Through four shots of OO buck it functioned smooth as butter just like it did in training. It is a personal gun and the dept issues 870 W/surfires. Our team also has the choice to carry the 870 W/ 14 in barrel.

old hawk · January 3, 2001, 11:42 AM

out of the 4 870's ive owned the only thing to break was actually the shell stop falling out and then i just restaked it back in,on one old 870. thats it .870 dependable? u bet.
i dont like mossys for the fact that the early ones built had a swedged in stock retainer nut in the back of the reciever that would wiggle its butt out when it wanted to namely at the wrong time.supposedly they remiedied that.happened to me once with one and i will never again own an aluminum mossy again.

Payette Jack · January 3, 2001, 08:55 PM

When I was in the Navy, we had 870's that we're 'hand me downs' from the Marines. Vietnam era M-14s, .45's and 870s (and you thought the Air Force were the last ones to get upgraded small arms) ended up on board ships.

The 500 Mossy series has a pretty good reputation. I wouldn't necesarily knock them. My personal preference (which is exactly what it is) is for Remingtons as well, but I wouldn't feel too bad about the Mossberg being issued to me.

January 1, 2001, 01:45 PM	#4
Hardin Junior member Join Date: December 30, 2000 Posts: 98	ever TRY using a pump while prone? How about while injured helping a wounded buddy, or while holding a light or driving,hanging on to a bouncing jeep? I hold no brief for ANY shotgun, but I can certainly see why the auto is preferable. As much of a hell as the military put the pistols thru before choosing the Beretta, I bet that they are well-convinced that the Benelli is quite reliable enough

January 3, 2001, 08:55 PM	#12
Payette Jack Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 2000 Posts: 336	Are you sure the Marines had Mossy's in Nam?? When I was in the Navy, we had 870's that we're 'hand me downs' from the Marines. Vietnam era M-14s, .45's and 870s (and you thought the Air Force were the last ones to get upgraded small arms) ended up on board ships. The 500 Mossy series has a pretty good reputation. I wouldn't necesarily knock them. My personal preference (which is exactly what it is) is for Remingtons as well, but I wouldn't feel too bad about the Mossberg being issued to me.

December 31, 2000, 07:50 PM	#1
Blain Junior member Join Date: December 30, 2000 Posts: 14	Now I'm not saying that the marines are picking horrible guns to use in combat, but they always surprise me with the gun they end up choosing. It seems for each time they pick a gun, there are 2-3 other guns I could view as a better overall choice for them. Take Vietnam for instance, the first time they issued a requirement challenge for the shotgun manufacturers to make them a good reliable gun that fit all these rigid requirements. For some reason they ended up choosing the Mossy 500. Now don't get me wrong the 500 is a fine gun, yet compared to even an 870 even it is not as durable, reliable, or as high quality. This is from past experiences along from the testimonies of many people who are intimately familiar with both guns, from collectors to law officers. How then did the Mossy get chosen as the standard weapon? I still don't see it. Forget Vietnam, today, with all we now about shotguns now the military did another test/challenge for shotgun manufacturers. And they end up choosing a Benelli auto loader??? Now call me crazy but I don't see the logic in this choice. Now I'm not downing Benelli at all as they make fine weapons, however as a military durable, gun.... I don't know. First off I can't see the appeal of the auto loader. First of all they aren’t reliable and are prone to jam, ESP with slugs and specialty ammunition that the military is destined to use. Thirdly they tend to stop working properly in harsh conditions that the army will be sure to encounter. Now I know that the M-4 can go pump too, so why spend all the extra money on a pump/auto when you won't even be using the auto. There is no reason for the military to need an auto. For one it’s not much faster, and secondly it’s not nearly reliable enough. The ONLY feature on the Benelli I can see as beneficial in any way over even the Mossy 500 is the adjustable stock, that’s it. You want to know what gun I think deserves to be chosen? The Neosted http://users.iafrica.com/n/nj/njj741t/index.html 2 barreled pump shotgun with 2 separate magazine chambers of 6 rounds (12 total) so you can fill one tube with buck and the other with slugs. Neo has been looking for someone to manufacture their shotguns yet no one has stepped up to the plate yet. Take a look at this site and see why this shotgun is the future of military shotgunning. Yet failing even that shotgun you can get a nice combat 870 at such a lower cost. I don't see why the 870s weren't enlisted into the service long ago, they are a fine shotgun, till something like Neosted comes around. Yet compared to the M-4 Benelli, I would MUCH rather depend on the good ol 870. Someone needs to set those Marines right.

December 31, 2000, 08:30 PM	#2
EchoFiveMike Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2000 Posts: 416	I don't know about the Moss 500, but I've only handled Rem 870's when I've been issued shotguns. Of course, in 8+ years of service, I've only used a SG four times. I've brought my 590 on urban ops once, when there was the very real possibility of running into drug addicts and homeless people in our training area, but that's it. Haven't seen the new XM1077 yet, will report when I get my hand on one. Semper Fidelis..Ken M

January 1, 2001, 11:16 AM	#3
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	S'funny thing how non issue shotguns end up in combat zones. I saw 97s, 12s, A-5s, 870s etc during my youthful travels in South East Asia. Going on News footage of stuff since Desert Storm, there's lots of 870s in military hands,whether or not they're milspec.

January 1, 2001, 05:28 PM	#5
ajacobs Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2000 Posts: 210	You want to know what gun I think deserves to be chosen? The Neosted http://users.iafrica.com/n/nj/njj741t/index.html 2 barreled pump shotgun with 2 separate magazine chambers of 6 rounds (12 total) so you can fill one tube with buck and the other with slugs. Neo has been looking for someone to manufacture their shotguns yet no one has stepped up to the plate yet. Take a look at this site and see why this shotgun is the future of military shotgunning. Only one barrel, it is just on the bottom.

January 1, 2001, 05:34 PM	#6
Blain Junior member Join Date: December 30, 2000 Posts: 14	Umm thats what I said in my origonal post, big guy.

January 1, 2001, 06:08 PM	#7
Robe Member Join Date: February 4, 2000 Posts: 70	Blain- I have been reading your posts and replies to others on this forum. You seem to have a very aggressive style of commenting and making your point. Just curious why you are so aggressive?

January 1, 2001, 09:30 PM	#8
Correia Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 1998 Location: SLC Utah Posts: 3,740	Just a clarification, I think your mixing up the M3 and the M4. The M3 is the one that is pump/auto. The M4 is auto only. The M3 works off of the standard Ben. recoil system while the M4 is dual piston gas operated. And I think that the Neostead looks pretty cool too. It would be nice to see them built stateside.

January 3, 2001, 04:18 AM	#9
DML Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2000 Location: Aridzona Posts: 257	I personally prefer the 870, but the funny thing is that the Mossberg 500 USA and the later 590-A1 were the only shotguns to survive the military shoot to destruction test. I haven't seen the actual test, but a "reliable source" told me that it involved firing 3000 rounds through a number of guns without any cleaning. Then the guns were field stripped, the parts tossed in a box, mixed up and the guns were put back together with what ever came out of the box. Another 3000 rounds were fired. It seems that the Mossbergs were the only ones to survive. So much for durability. I know of at least one police dept. that has used Mossberg 590s for many years. Their training guns have 10,000 plus rounds through them and they hold up just fine. One more thing. ALL of Mossbergs parts are field replacable without special tools. If you crunch the magazine tube on a 870, you have a single shot that has to go back to the factory. The same goes for the ejector. It can be replaced by a gunsmith, but it's not that easy or quick. I still prefer the 870. It just feels better to me.

January 3, 2001, 11:39 AM	#10
Gunfighter Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 1999 Posts: 128	I used a Moss 590 in a shooting last year. Through four shots of OO buck it functioned smooth as butter just like it did in training. It is a personal gun and the dept issues 870 W/surfires. Our team also has the choice to carry the 870 W/ 14 in barrel.

January 3, 2001, 11:42 AM	#11
old hawk Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2000 Location: somewhere,maine. Posts: 175	out of the 4 870's ive owned the only thing to break was actually the shell stop falling out and then i just restaked it back in,on one old 870. thats it .870 dependable? u bet. i dont like mossys for the fact that the early ones built had a swedged in stock retainer nut in the back of the reciever that would wiggle its butt out when it wanted to namely at the wrong time.supposedly they remiedied that.happened to me once with one and i will never again own an aluminum mossy again.