Would you really pull the trigger? - Page 3

The Tourist · February 25, 2010, 09:26 PM

If that's the way I have to live--"me or them"--then I'll decide to opt out of the fray.

At the age of 60, I have +one decade to live happily with the sun on my face. If I have to crawl out of bed every morning, anticipating the morning paper, a latte' and a gunfight, I'll go back and snooze.

I've seen too much hate, too much testosterone and far, far too much ignorance. I'll let all of the "sensei" do my fighting, and my worrying, and growing my ulcer. They're welcomed to it. 'Nuff said.

fustache44 · February 25, 2010, 10:08 PM

Having not read the whole thread... One performs as one trains. If you don't bother training, your reaction will be fate and luck. I don't trust either, if I can help it.

EL34 · February 25, 2010, 10:29 PM

A consistent focus of the thread compares the interest in carrying protection with the willingness to invoke that protection if ever necessary. Otherwise there is no purpose in having it, why buy any type of insurance policy if it won't be willingly used. I have mentally/emotionally/morally agreed with myself that I am ok with using the ultimate force available if necessary. The decision is therefore already made, no need to dwell on it if the situation arises, I can jump straight to action.

Pezo · February 26, 2010, 10:45 PM

My biggest fear would be to if anything realize how dangerous a threat is. Would I notice the gun or knife in time to act? If I felt in undoubtable severe danger. Hands down would I use my weapon.

GUNSITE · February 27, 2010, 08:27 AM

pezo you make an excellent point....

Understand and realizing when to use justifiable deadly force, its simple if someone is shooting at you, you shoot and kill your target, no brainer.

The real problem/challenge is understanding the escalation of aggression and risk assessment... at what point are you in fear of life to justifiably point your gun at someone, and take the shot. Hesitation can get you killed, jumping the gun, sort of speak... and you might be charged with homicide.

When your involve with the use of deadly force... its not party time, its not TV, its a stressful situation for you, your family, and your savings!! No matter how right you are... it can still go wrong, and in the end its not about truth, its only about with you can prove.

GET TRAINING, not just about target shooting and cleaning your weapon, or shooting on the move, get classroom training on the use DEADLY FORCE according to your state guide lines.

ALWAYS TAKE YOUR BEST SHOT... Good Luck

Hog Hunter · February 27, 2010, 08:46 AM

Shoot first ask questions later!!
If a life threating situation arouses, my life and loved ones life is more important to me than the threat(s). If I feal the need to draw my gun i intend to use it and shoot to kill. Any hesitation in your decision making in a life threating situation could cause you your life and the lives of others.

Mike Faires · February 27, 2010, 09:03 AM

Why would this question even be asked on this forum? If you are not prepared to shoot do not carry. That attitude makes you a liability to those that do carry legally.
Some day this thread will be introduced in a court of law by some enterprising Brady lawyer as further proof of why our second amendment rights should be abridged.

Puntmefar · February 28, 2010, 07:03 AM

well there a lot of great points and i agree if u are not willing to shoot when no other option is avilible to protect your life, the life of a loved one, or another innocent victoms life then maby u need to think about y u are carrying a gun and y u payed the money to get the permit to do so. But in reality no one can awnser that question untill they are in the situation and i pray no one here ever finds them self there. 45Gunner is absoultly right b4 we are in that situation we need to b aware that we will live with the result for the rest of our lives even if we are justifyed at the time. all life should be preserved when ever possible there for if u can defend your life without deadly force it may b best to do so even when justyfied. by the same reason all life should be preserved i will defend my life and my loved ones lives with what ever force nessary to preserve our life b4 our attackers life.

Caddy · February 28, 2010, 07:20 AM

I know now (first hand) that it is an exhilirating feeling to fire a gun a an inanimate object. Whether I could do the same to a person is a matter which is yet to be revealed. But I believe I would if I had to, either in the course of my job or to protect a loved one.

skydiver3346 · February 28, 2010, 09:26 AM

Uh, if you are not ready to ever pull the trigger, please do not carry a firearm. All you will do is get yourself or someone else killed by pulling a gun and not using it if you had too.

Caddy · February 28, 2010, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Uh, if you are not ready to ever pull the trigger, please do not carry a firearm. All you will do is get yourself or someone else killed by pulling a gun and not using it if you had too.

I agree! So do some of more knowledgeable buddies!

alloy · February 28, 2010, 09:45 AM

Interesting question to ponder.

Al Norris · February 28, 2010, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Faires

Why would this question even be asked on this forum?

It's the first question anyone should be asking themselves, should they decide they want to carry a firearm. This, before they ever pick up a gun.

Why ask it on an open and public forum? Possibly to spell out the ramifications. The legal implications can be taken care of in a fairly straight forward manner. There is an aspect of training involved, and that training should be a constant practice, not a one-shot deal. The psychological aspects are another story entirely - surviving the encounter but not the aftermath can scar you for life.

Fact is, a lot of people haven't completely reasoned through the question, and yet they still carry.

Quote:

If you are not prepared to shoot do not carry. That attitude makes you a liability to those that do carry legally.

If you have not reasoned through the question, you become a liability to yourself and those around you that count upon you protecting them. What others may or may not do, is irrelevant at that point and thereafter.

Quote:

Some day this thread will be introduced in a court of law by some enterprising Brady lawyer as further proof of why our second amendment rights should be abridged.

It can be just as easily argued, should this happen, that the answers given here are well thought out and reasoned.

There has been no chest thumping. So what problem would there be? This is not the first time this question has been asked here. Nor will it be the last. The question comes up, from time to time, and the more seasoned members do their best to provide meaningful answers.

That is the core reason for the existence of TFL: To encourage responsible firearms ownership. How better to achieve that, than answering basic questions about self defense in a Tactics and Training forum?

The Tourist · February 28, 2010, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Faires

Why would this question even be asked on this forum?

I think it's an excellent idea to discuss our opinions over time. I don't think in the same manner, or have the same goals, as I did when younger. And if you spend time at the same type of "round tables" I do on a Saturday morning in gun and bike shops, that idea is quite a popular topic.

More to the point, sometimes it's just a good idea to "think out loud." Many times this practice re-enforces problems you have with fence sitting. Other times your own voice sounds so silly that you look for other options. If so, people you respect can often provide another point of view.

Frankly, if people seek advice on which bike they want to buy next spring, don't you think they should also seek opinions on more important topics, like ending a human life?

OuTcAsT · February 28, 2010, 02:59 PM

Quote:

It's the first question anyone should be asking themselves, should they decide they want to carry a firearm. This, before they ever pick up a gun.

Quote:

Fact is, a lot of people haven't completely reasoned through the question, and yet they still carry.

Quote:

If you have not reasoned through the question, you become a liability to yourself and those around you that count upon you protecting them.

Quote:

There is an aspect of training involved, and that training should be a constant practice, not a one-shot deal

These are the words to live by. ^^

Stevie-Ray · February 28, 2010, 04:49 PM

I've put my hand on it twice and twice diffused different situations. There was no question I was ready both times, but also no question I wasn't going to fire unless I had to.

EdInk · February 28, 2010, 10:56 PM

I have had to you a tactical folder for defense. After that I decided a gun is the only way to go.

Cremon · March 1, 2010, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Tourist

I don't think in the same manner, or have the same goals, as I did when younger.

That is my situation exactly. I think most of the folks here that are over 40 will say the same thing. I carry more for my family than I do for myself. My entire sense of values got an overhaul as I have grown older.

The Tourist · March 1, 2010, 11:16 AM

Cremon, and older guys should say that, often.

We know that most of the TFL menbers here are good with firearms and probably very good shots. Many are former LEOs or soldiers or are regular participants at the local dojo. The hunters here are well versed in a changing landscape of smells and movements. Most of us have grown up on a steady diet of advice from Jeff Cooper, Massad Ayoob and Bill Jordan.

And after all of that, many of us feel the need to assert our manlihood or superiority with a large caliber pistol, a scowl, a spiel and the declaration of the warrior mindset.

Please.

If true, you're going to stand over a bleeding human being, and according to many military sources, up to 40% of them will be calling out the same final word, "mother."

You're going to have that vision etched in your memory. If you're a LEO there is a good chance that you will retire or resign within nine months. Fully one-third of the currently deployed soldiers now in combat will seek treatment for PTSD.

Those who train SEALs opine that the 'Rambo' guys are some of the first to wash out. And I believe this to be true of the civilian sensei. The guys who squeak the loudest will be the first to turn tail.

The use of deadly force is a tragic event. And let me openly state I fear it, don't want it in my life, and I will do everything in my power to exit, turn yellow, run or talk my way out of this horrid exchange. It is undoubtedly the most barbaric of all human interaction.

zxcvbob · March 1, 2010, 11:24 AM

I assume so, based on how I handled other crises in the past. There's plenty of time to feel bad about it later; in the moment you just do what needs to be done because you've thought it all thru ahead of time.

I hope to never find out for sure.

The Tourist · March 1, 2010, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zxcvbob

I hope to never find out for sure.

+1, sir. I hope none of us have to find out.

Cise · March 1, 2010, 06:45 PM

It would truly suck if you pulled the trigger and he/she died, Then you get charged with murder because he/she was drunk/had no gun/asking you a question or what ever the case is.

zxcvbob · March 1, 2010, 06:57 PM

Quote:

It would truly suck if you pulled the trigger and he/she died, Then you get charged with murder because he/she was drunk/had no gun/asking you a question or what ever the case is.

Yes it would. It would also suck if you hesitate and get shot or stabbed to death because of your inaction. CP generously gave us 1 second to decide in the heat of battle. The cops, prosecutor, grand jury, judge, etc get to take months to calmly and rationally second-guess you. Life isn't fair; so what is your point?

Cise · March 2, 2010, 01:25 AM

zxcvbob No point, I was just saying.

The Tourist · March 2, 2010, 01:40 AM

My position is that simply being thoughtful with your own life, possibly facing charges and jail time, your health--both mental and physical--should be predicated on what is best for you.

I mean, who cares if the attacker/felon/aggressor lives, dies or finds God because of his contact with you? It doesn't mean you're a pacifist if you make the conscious decision not to mix company with someone who has more problems than you do. Heck, I used to pick girl friends with the same criteria, why not a strategy for self-defense?

Here's where I part company with "traditional wisdom." I've heard the old canard about the most important thing in a gunfight is having a gun. I disagree. The most important thing in a gunfight is living to go home.

I'm not a sworn officer, a parish priest, an exterminator, a candidate for office or the village idiot. I'm a graying biker with fun on his mind and flat-out contempt for folks who wish to wreck my day.

But it makes no sense to me to fire a cartridge costing a dollar into a two-bit hood I can easily ignore. It's more cost effective, and looking at pretty girls is more fun. I'll leave all of this "righteous moral combat" to a self appointed sensei. Most of them haven't really been in a fight, so they need the practice.

View Poll Results: Confident you will shoot to kill when given 1 second to decide?
Yes -- I have done so against attackers in the past	38	18.18%
Very confident I could do this without hesitation	106	50.72%
Likely I could act without hesitation	52	24.88%
Somewhat worried I would freeze up	13	6.22%
Voters: 209. You may not vote on this poll

February 25, 2010, 10:08 PM	#52
fustache44 Member Join Date: June 12, 2009 Location: The Buckeye State Posts: 46	Having not read the whole thread... One performs as one trains. If you don't bother training, your reaction will be fate and luck. I don't trust either, if I can help it. __________________ "Let this be a lesson to you...never trust a gun company that sounds like it should be selling rhododendrons."

February 25, 2010, 10:29 PM	#53
EL34 Junior Member Join Date: February 21, 2010 Location: DFW TX Posts: 2	A consistent focus of the thread compares the interest in carrying protection with the willingness to invoke that protection if ever necessary. Otherwise there is no purpose in having it, why buy any type of insurance policy if it won't be willingly used. I have mentally/emotionally/morally agreed with myself that I am ok with using the ultimate force available if necessary. The decision is therefore already made, no need to dwell on it if the situation arises, I can jump straight to action. __________________ Every day above dirt is a good day

February 27, 2010, 08:27 AM	#55
GUNSITE Member Join Date: January 27, 2006 Location: USA Posts: 72	pezo you make an excellent point.... Understand and realizing when to use justifiable deadly force, its simple if someone is shooting at you, you shoot and kill your target, no brainer. The real problem/challenge is understanding the escalation of aggression and risk assessment... at what point are you in fear of life to justifiably point your gun at someone, and take the shot. Hesitation can get you killed, jumping the gun, sort of speak... and you might be charged with homicide. When your involve with the use of deadly force... its not party time, its not TV, its a stressful situation for you, your family, and your savings!! No matter how right you are... it can still go wrong, and in the end its not about truth, its only about with you can prove. GET TRAINING, not just about target shooting and cleaning your weapon, or shooting on the move, get classroom training on the use DEADLY FORCE according to your state guide lines. ALWAYS TAKE YOUR BEST SHOT... Good Luck __________________ THE TWO LOUDEST SOUNDS YOU'LL EVER HERE ARE... A BANG WHEN YOU EXPECT A CLICK...OR A CLICK WHEN YOU EXPECT A BANG

February 28, 2010, 09:26 AM	#60
skydiver3346 Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 1,222	Pull the trigger? Uh, if you are not ready to ever pull the trigger, please do not carry a firearm. All you will do is get yourself or someone else killed by pulling a gun and not using it if you had too.

February 25, 2010, 09:26 PM	#51
The Tourist Junior member Join Date: June 20, 2005 Posts: 2,348	If that's the way I have to live--"me or them"--then I'll decide to opt out of the fray. At the age of 60, I have +one decade to live happily with the sun on my face. If I have to crawl out of bed every morning, anticipating the morning paper, a latte' and a gunfight, I'll go back and snooze. I've seen too much hate, too much testosterone and far, far too much ignorance. I'll let all of the "sensei" do my fighting, and my worrying, and growing my ulcer. They're welcomed to it. 'Nuff said.

February 26, 2010, 10:45 PM	#54
Pezo Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2005 Location: Vernors and orange barrels. Posts: 661	My biggest fear would be to if anything realize how dangerous a threat is. Would I notice the gun or knife in time to act? If I felt in undoubtable severe danger. Hands down would I use my weapon.

February 27, 2010, 08:46 AM	#56
Hog Hunter Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2009 Location: Georgia Posts: 386	Shoot first ask questions later!! If a life threating situation arouses, my life and loved ones life is more important to me than the threat(s). If I feal the need to draw my gun i intend to use it and shoot to kill. Any hesitation in your decision making in a life threating situation could cause you your life and the lives of others.

February 27, 2010, 09:03 AM	#57
Mike Faires Junior member Join Date: April 17, 2007 Posts: 29	Why would this question even be asked on this forum? If you are not prepared to shoot do not carry. That attitude makes you a liability to those that do carry legally. Some day this thread will be introduced in a court of law by some enterprising Brady lawyer as further proof of why our second amendment rights should be abridged.

February 28, 2010, 07:03 AM	#58
Puntmefar Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2010 Location: Louisville Ky. Posts: 137	well there a lot of great points and i agree if u are not willing to shoot when no other option is avilible to protect your life, the life of a loved one, or another innocent victoms life then maby u need to think about y u are carrying a gun and y u payed the money to get the permit to do so. But in reality no one can awnser that question untill they are in the situation and i pray no one here ever finds them self there. 45Gunner is absoultly right b4 we are in that situation we need to b aware that we will live with the result for the rest of our lives even if we are justifyed at the time. all life should be preserved when ever possible there for if u can defend your life without deadly force it may b best to do so even when justyfied. by the same reason all life should be preserved i will defend my life and my loved ones lives with what ever force nessary to preserve our life b4 our attackers life.

February 28, 2010, 07:20 AM	#59
Caddy Member Join Date: February 23, 2010 Posts: 18	I know now (first hand) that it is an exhilirating feeling to fire a gun a an inanimate object. Whether I could do the same to a person is a matter which is yet to be revealed. But I believe I would if I had to, either in the course of my job or to protect a loved one.

February 28, 2010, 04:49 PM	#66
Stevie-Ray Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: The shores of Lake Huron Posts: 4,783	I've put my hand on it twice and twice diffused different situations. There was no question I was ready both times, but also no question I wasn't going to fire unless I had to. __________________ Stevie-Ray Join the NRA/ILA I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed.

February 28, 2010, 10:56 PM	#67
EdInk Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2009 Posts: 3,968	I have had to you a tactical folder for defense. After that I decided a gun is the only way to go. __________________ Sic Semper Tyrannis

March 1, 2010, 11:16 AM	#69
The Tourist Junior member Join Date: June 20, 2005 Posts: 2,348	Cremon, and older guys should say that, often. We know that most of the TFL menbers here are good with firearms and probably very good shots. Many are former LEOs or soldiers or are regular participants at the local dojo. The hunters here are well versed in a changing landscape of smells and movements. Most of us have grown up on a steady diet of advice from Jeff Cooper, Massad Ayoob and Bill Jordan. And after all of that, many of us feel the need to assert our manlihood or superiority with a large caliber pistol, a scowl, a spiel and the declaration of the warrior mindset. Please. If true, you're going to stand over a bleeding human being, and according to many military sources, up to 40% of them will be calling out the same final word, "mother." You're going to have that vision etched in your memory. If you're a LEO there is a good chance that you will retire or resign within nine months. Fully one-third of the currently deployed soldiers now in combat will seek treatment for PTSD. Those who train SEALs opine that the 'Rambo' guys are some of the first to wash out. And I believe this to be true of the civilian sensei. The guys who squeak the loudest will be the first to turn tail. The use of deadly force is a tragic event. And let me openly state I fear it, don't want it in my life, and I will do everything in my power to exit, turn yellow, run or talk my way out of this horrid exchange. It is undoubtedly the most barbaric of all human interaction.

March 1, 2010, 11:24 AM	#70
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	I assume so, based on how I handled other crises in the past. There's plenty of time to feel bad about it later; in the moment you just do what needs to be done because you've thought it all thru ahead of time. I hope to never find out for sure. __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth

March 1, 2010, 06:45 PM	#72
Cise Junior Member Join Date: March 1, 2010 Posts: 2	It would truly suck if you pulled the trigger and he/she died, Then you get charged with murder because he/she was drunk/had no gun/asking you a question or what ever the case is.

March 2, 2010, 01:25 AM	#74
Cise Junior Member Join Date: March 1, 2010 Posts: 2	zxcvbob No point, I was just saying.

March 2, 2010, 01:40 AM	#75
The Tourist Junior member Join Date: June 20, 2005 Posts: 2,348	My position is that simply being thoughtful with your own life, possibly facing charges and jail time, your health--both mental and physical--should be predicated on what is best for you. I mean, who cares if the attacker/felon/aggressor lives, dies or finds God because of his contact with you? It doesn't mean you're a pacifist if you make the conscious decision not to mix company with someone who has more problems than you do. Heck, I used to pick girl friends with the same criteria, why not a strategy for self-defense? Here's where I part company with "traditional wisdom." I've heard the old canard about the most important thing in a gunfight is having a gun. I disagree. The most important thing in a gunfight is living to go home. I'm not a sworn officer, a parish priest, an exterminator, a candidate for office or the village idiot. I'm a graying biker with fun on his mind and flat-out contempt for folks who wish to wreck my day. But it makes no sense to me to fire a cartridge costing a dollar into a two-bit hood I can easily ignore. It's more cost effective, and looking at pretty girls is more fun. I'll leave all of this "righteous moral combat" to a self appointed sensei. Most of them haven't really been in a fight, so they need the practice.