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Old March 7, 2010, 12:31 PM   #26
Glenn E. Meyer
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Police have a different deterrence level than a citizen in the supermarket parking lot. If you shoot a police man and take their gun, you can be sure that the effort to get you will be quite more intense than that of the civilian.

The open carry officer is not different from the uniformed officer if he or she is identifed with a badge.

BTW, police are likely to have their gun removed and to be shot with their own gun in incidents. That's why there was the move to retention holsters.

Some studies show that about 1 in 5 officers are shot with their own gun or that of their partner.
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Old March 7, 2010, 12:38 PM   #27
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Some studies show that about 1 in 5 officers are shot with their own gun or that of their partner
1 in 5 officers are shot with their own gun or that of their partner? I had no idea that many police officers got shot! Does that include getting shot on the range during training too?!? 1 in 5 officers shot?!? And that does not even include the cops shot with a someone else's gun, not even their own! OMG!

That sounds like some Brady Campaign statistics to me.

What really amazes me is that in states like Vermont, Alaska, Washington, Montana, Idaho, Nevada (Las Vegas even!), Arizona, South Dakota, Kentucky, Virginia, North Carolina, Colorado, Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri, Louisiana, Alabama, West Virginia and Ohio - we can open carry with no permit, no training. And yet in these states there just isn't any reports at all of a civilian open carrier ever having his gun taken from him. And there certainly are no more reports of it happening than in any other state that is concealed carry only. Odd. I would think if it was such a big threat that it would actually be happening in real life.

Last edited by NavyLT; March 7, 2010 at 12:45 PM.
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Old March 7, 2010, 01:48 PM   #28
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I have to agree with Glenn Myers stats. Many police officers have been shot with their own gun, or that of another officer. I dont know if these stats are as one sided as they once were. But there have been improvements in equipment, and procedures. Security holsters, and disarming in certain situations. I believe the most common situation leading to officers being shot with their own gun was when finger printing prisoners.

Gun retention is IMO a serious issue for open carry, as well as CCW. Personally I practice the methods I learned for open carry with my CCW equipment. I truely believe that firearms retention begins with your equipment. Belt and holster. Personally I put security, and retention ahead of speed of draw.

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Old March 7, 2010, 02:00 PM   #29
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What really amazes me is that in states like Vermont, Alaska, Washington, Montana, Idaho, Nevada (Las Vegas even!), Arizona, South Dakota, Kentucky, Virginia, North Carolina, Colorado, Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri, Louisiana, Alabama, West Virginia and Ohio - we can open carry with no permit, no training. And yet in these states there just isn't any reports at all of a civilian open carrier ever having his gun taken from him. And there certainly are no more reports of it happening than in any other state that is concealed carry only. Odd. I would think if it was such a big threat that it would actually be happening in real life.
LT,
Agreed, I don't think it's nearly as big of an issue as some would have us believe. However, just as a matter of prudence, one would be wise to obtain some form of training when OCing in more populous areas. I'm not saying gun grabs happen often, but all that is necessary for a real bad day is for it to happen only once... To you.
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Old March 7, 2010, 03:03 PM   #30
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What really amazes me is that in states like Vermont, Alaska, Washington . . . And yet in these states there just [aren't] any reports at all of a civilian open carrier ever having his gun taken from him. And there certainly are no more reports of it happening than in any other state that is concealed carry only. Odd. I would think if it was such a big threat that it would actually be happening in real life.
NavyLT - funny how that works, isn't it?

jgcoastie - quite so.
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Old March 7, 2010, 04:42 PM   #31
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I think Glenn was saying that 20% of officers who get shot do so from a service weapon of themselves or their partner, not that 20% of ALL cops get shot with their own gun... why would anyone want to be a cop with those odds!?!
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Old March 7, 2010, 04:59 PM   #32
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If one were to open carry, I would think one would have to be on full alert at all times i.e., eyes in the back of the head. I don't think I would open carry with less than a level 2 retention holster and make sure my arm covered my gun so that if some one were to attempt to take my gun, they would have to yank my arm, giving me an indication that perhaps something were amiss, if they could get that close to my "protected space."

I would think that perhaps a lanyard might be somewhat of a help to prevent a snatch and run. The gun, if snatched hard enough, might even be pulled out the snatcher's hand when they reached the end of the rope.

Just some random thoughts as I never really considered open carry even when I could. Many moons ago, when I was in the jungles of Vietnam, my Colt 1911 was in a holster with a flap and indeed a lanyard to keep it from going to far if I took a dive into a rice paddy.
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Old March 7, 2010, 08:10 PM   #33
Glenn E. Meyer
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Sorry for not clarifying but it was clear that I was talking about during an incident. It was obvious.

Also, the point is well taken about where you open carry. First, it is a rare event and probably doesn't occur in high risk environs. VT is not the same as a downtown urban crime area. I could probably carry in our upscale mall if legal and not be threatened by the upper classes.

I would not feel that sanguine on Saturday night in south-side San Antonio. Nor do I think those folks are particularly scared of me.

That we haven't seen folks get taken on when they are safe areas to begin with is not good evidence. Let's seen open carry in a street festival that is alcohol fueled and crowded. Of course, you wouldn't go there.

You would have to be very silly or tactically incompetent to think that a smart determined predator could not take down a single Joe Open Carry. Police take that risk for different reasons than civilians.

BTW, I would support an open carry law just for accidental exposures but I wouldn't do it except in the field as when I was hunting.
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Old March 7, 2010, 08:27 PM   #34
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Quote:
From NavyLT: What really amazes me is that in states like Vermont, Alaska, Washington, Montana, Idaho, Nevada (Las Vegas even!), Arizona, South Dakota, Kentucky, Virginia, North Carolina, Colorado, Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri, Louisiana, Alabama, West Virginia and Ohio - we can open carry with no permit, no training.
In Missouri, a Concealed Carry Endorsement (which requires training) is necessary for open carry except when one is hunting--and that is where open carry is lawful at all. In the populous counties, it is not permitted at all.

Quote:
And yet in these states there just isn't any reports at all of a civilian open carrier ever having his gun taken from him.
Kinda hard to prove a negative, eh?

One of the interesting things about the internet age is that many assume that if they cannot readily find it by using a search engine, it didn't happen.

Now, is it really important whether the victim was a civilian or a sworn officer if the perp simply wanted the gun? In Missouri not long ago, a criminal took a gun from someone else to use it in a mass murder. No, the victim was not a civilian; civilians may not carry openly here. But is there any reason to believe that a civilian carrying openly would not have been assailed? I think not.

In that event, "retention" ceased to be a possibility when the perp used his revolver to shoot the open carrier in the back so he could take the high-cap .40 caliber weapon for his next expedition--see Glenn E. Meyer's post above.
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Old March 7, 2010, 08:30 PM   #35
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That we haven't seen folks get taken on when they are safe areas to begin with is not good evidence. Let's seen open carry in a street festival that is alcohol fueled and crowded. Of course, you wouldn't go there.
Well, that's a most perplexing conclusion, given the paucity of evidence either way. Do we have any data on when and where people open carry? I would think the phenomenon is isolated enough that it would be hard to draw any conclusions on way or the other. Some carry openly in heavily urbanized areas (I often choose to). Some choose not to. Others only open carry in the woods. Good to go, no sweat to me. But I am not aware of any evidence that open carriers only carry "in safe areas." Heck, if it's that safe, why open carry? Why carry at all? And, conversely, if an area is so "alcohol fueled and crowded" as to imperil life and limb, why would a legally armed citizen (as opposed to, say, a street thug) go there at all, whether armed openly or concealed? There are many times I choose not to carry openly, but if fear for my safety by virtue of carrying openly was one of them, I'd pick someplace else to be.

Just wondering.
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Old March 8, 2010, 10:37 AM   #36
Glenn E. Meyer
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It's a good point that we don't have enough data to conclude that open carry is safe in many environs that might be considered dangerous.

My point was that the proponents of it being just wonderful as it works in VT, didn't have enough situational data to draw a firm conclusion.

As I pointed pointed out before, we do know from police that guns can be taken away in altercations.

Of course, if the area is dangerous, you shouldn't go there. But then, why open carry in safe places - my point also?

Is the point of open carry, making a political statement, a personal statement or is it a tactical advantage? A mixture of all three?

Maybe it is good politics in areas with restrictive laws - that's an empirical question. I don't see the tactical advantage for a civilian in most circumstances with a determined opponenet.
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Old March 8, 2010, 11:10 AM   #37
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Posted by Glenn E. Meyer: It's a good point that we don't have enough data to conclude that open carry is safe in many environs that might be considered dangerous.
Yes, it is. Not only that , but I doubt that we will ever have enough real data from which to draw a conclusion.

Might this not be a good subject for some kind of scientific experiment? (No, I have no idea about how to design one!)

Quote:
Of course, if the area is dangerous, you shouldn't go there.
Right! After I started carrying concealed, I decided that the best strategy for surviving the proverbial "gun fight" is non attendance. We avoid certain popular but questionable restaurant areas and malls even though I do carry. But: violent crime is increasing everywhere, and I contend that the only "safe" area would be in a walled, gated community. So--I do carry, because no place is necessarily always safe, and I also avoid areas that are known to have high crime rates.

We have a friend who is a detective. When she is not working she stays out of more areas than I do, and she carries a gun and is highly trained.
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Old March 8, 2010, 02:19 PM   #38
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I remember being in the market and a school district cop (a skinny kid) was wearing his gun openly with his badge on his belt. I had to stand in back of him to check out. Would he not get in line if I were a bad looking person. One could have simply stabbed him in the kidneys and that's that
I could be stabbed in full uniform,it all comes down to SA and dumb luck. I am being paid for heightened SA while I am at work.
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Old March 9, 2010, 04:59 AM   #39
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Thankfully, no..... (dressed down officers shot)

But that doesn't mean they haven't increased their risk, or increased their vulnerability.

If that's the train of thought, why arm our officers at all. Heck, most never even get near a shoot out, much less in one.

I am simply saying, why give up the element of surprise, and as an officer, increase your risk, while reducing your ability to observe one's surroundings w/o all who see you say/think/act accordingly "there's a cop".

With my outfit, it's contrary to policy to boot.
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