Military brass denied to civilians...again

[HiBC]

I think in fairness you ought to put this right,thanks.

[GallowGlass]

Kozy business arrangment for installation commanders.Bulk brass fund account to use at his discretion on his base. More wastefull decisions/contracts dealing with our tax dollars. Fired brass components the civilian public could utliize after its' manufactured military purpose should be legally accessible. USA right? Sounds alot like the $234.00 toilet seat? Get in touch with your State Senators & Representatives over this ATK military brass modus-profirandi.

[BillCA]

After exchanging emails with Mr. Marbut regarding ATK's press release, I see he's used my "Zumbo" reference. I hope it helps dig the knife a bit deeper so ATK wakes up.

Update: Military Brass Destruction and ATK
March 27, 2010

Having suffered a "Zumbo moment," corporate giant ATK now seeks to redeem its image after its aggressive run at destroying all used military brass. Even though ATK was actively soliciting military installations to join its brass destruction program as recently as last Wednesday, ATK said in a fresh press release on Friday, "ATK fully supports the provision passed by Congress last year to ensure that demilitarized spent brass casings remain available for civilian use."

Industry and gun culture insiders report that ATK head Mark DeYoung is one of us, a gun owner and sportsman. Great. However, to refurbish its image and get beyond this "Zumbo moment," ATK will need to do more than simply post a statement announcing that it now fully supports a congressional ban enacted last year to forbid military brass destruction.

Two suggestions for ATK:

1) ATK could release a list of the military installations with which it has had Memoranda of Understanding to take and destroy fired brass, AND a list of the installations for which it has now canceled such MOUs; and

2) ATK could identify those employees responsible for both hatching and approving the ATK-sponsored program to destroy military brass, the people who approved pitching this program to military installations with the argument that allowing brass to be sold to the public somehow fosters domestic terrorism. Having identified those responsible, ATK could reassign those personnel to a commission-only job of hauling excess Lake City ammunition around the U.S. and selling that ammo to the public at shooting ranges and gun shows.

These two steps would go a long way towards reassuring the public that ATK is indeed a good corporate citizen, is actively complying with declared congressional intent and does not attempt to deamonize the ammo-buying public as domestic terrorists..

Even if ATK is willing to go the extra mile to get beyond its "Zumbo moment," that will still leave a pervasive problem in the U.S. military of non-compliance with the congressional prohibition of brass destruction. That problem will still need to be addressed, probably with further congressional action.

End

Gary Marbut, president
Montana Shooting Sports Association
http://www.mtssa.org
author, Gun Laws of Montana
http://www.mtpublish.com

My hat's off to Gary for being the point man on this issue.

[riverwalker76]

think in fairness you ought to put this right,thanks.

In a moment of haste I mistakenly mentioned Sierra when it should have been SPEER. I corrected my previous post to reflect that. Thanks for the attention in the matter.

Now, I think that this whole issue has backfired on ATK. They probably didn't expect to get the negative attention that this has brought upon them. With their contract being up soon they are probably sweating bullets.

[azredhawk44]

ATK needs to lose the ability to harvest this brass, at all, from military installations.

It needs to be passed to the CMP.

They are almost out of Garands, Springfields, trainer .22's and M1 Carbines. They cannot sell government surplus M14's or M16's due to the "once a machine gun, always a machine gun" rule... for some reason (even though they would all be manufactured before 1986... I'm a bit fuzzy on that particular issue but I cede the argument for simplicity's sake).

They are running out of Greek HXP .30-06 ammo.

CMP's about out of product.

You can bet your last donut that the CMP actually CARES about the shooting public, and will sell LC brass honorably to the shooting public.

[Unclenick]

ATK has announced it is withdrawing the offending brochure and presentation. Other than that, they say they are giving fair market value for the brass. We'll see what happens next?

[BillCA]

Originally Posted by Unclenick

Other than that, they say they are giving fair market value for the brass.

What ATK does is sell or lease the military installation on a "demil" (demilitarization) machine which renders the brass worthless as ammo brass. They then pay the base "fair market value" for scrap brass -- the same rate you might pay for old brass hinges.

I've seen once-fired ammo cases, sorted, washed and polished, selling in the range of $8.00 to $12.00 per 100 (handgun calibers). That means each case has a retail value of 8¢-12¢ each. In turn, that means buyers of military brass are probably paying around 2¢-3¢ each to pay for transportation, cleaning, packaging & advertising. Reloaders are using this brass to form new ammo.

But that demilled "scrap brass" only fetches between 75¢ to $1.70/lb in truckload quantities. A pound of 9mm brass has about 115 cases. At 3¢ each that's $3.45 per 100. At scrap rates, it's $1.70/lb or about 1.4¢ per case -- less than 50% of what useful brass costs.

So... not only is the military getting less return in its investment (for the initial brass case), the lack of useable brass decreases jobs, lowers productivity and lowers tax revenues -- not to mention it increases ammo prices to shooters, making it less desireable to maintain skills.

So that one "Green Idea" provides two possible "good" incentives (base funds and an unmeasurable "anti-terrorism" potential) but creates 5 economic negatives.

[snuffy]

Here's where to look for all of what they do;

http://www.atk.com/corporateoverview...amentgroup.asp

Also, in that URL, there's this list of companies they own, if you feel better by NOT buying anything from them.

Major Products and Programs — Commercial

* Federal Premium and Estate Cartridge ammunition
* CCI, Speer, Lawman, and Blazer ammunition
* Gunslick, Outers and Shooters Ridge gun care and shooting accessories
* RCBS reloading equipment
* Champion clay targets
* Weaver mounting systems
* Alliant Powder and gun powders for sporting re-loaders and ammunition manufacturers
* Eagle Industries law enforcement tactical accessories

My question is really basic. Would we as handloaders be able to take care of ALL the brass generated by military training here in the U.S.? By "take care of" I mean, how much does each person need/can use? Don't get me wrong, what they're doing is rotten, a blatant disregard for a law.

My son was activated from the Army reserve last year to train troops at Ft. McCoy WI. He was active in the 82nd airborne in Iraq and Afghanistan, upon discharge he became a D.I. He told of the massive amounts of spent brass they generated every day at the various ranges. I asked if he could get me a couple of buckets. Nope, it's de-milled, sold as scrap. IIRC it was BEFORE the bill sponsored by Montana Senators Baucus and Tester went through.

[BillCA]

My question is really basic. Would we as handloaders be able to take care of ALL the brass generated by military training here in the U.S.? By "take care of" I mean, how much does each person need/can use?

U.S. Civilian shooters could use it all... and then some.

A good many civilian AR rifle owners own the rifles because they are fun to shoot and can be fired rapidly. Unlike your typical bench-rest shooter or hunter who takes less than 40 rounds to the range to shoot his rifle, the AR-15 owner takes 100-200 rounds. It's a "combat rifle" and its proponets practice accordingly - multiple hits on multiple targets. Something your "sportsman" or "target shooter" considers unnecessary for their pursuits.

A hunter's rifle is lucky to see more than 100 rounds/year. The benchrest shooter fires 500-800 rounds/year. The typical shooter of an AR rifle fires upwards of 1500 rounds/year. Many shoot two or three times that amount just for fun.

Figure that approximately 250,000 AR rifles were produced in 2008 and sold in 2008-09, draining the supply in post-election months. Figure if each one of those owners fired just 1,000 rounds per year, that's 250 million rounds of ammo. That's just for recently sold rifles. Expect that in the last 10 years, sales have been around 150K per year for AR's. Add it all up, and if just the buyers in the last 10 years fire 1,000 rounds/year, that's 15 billion rounds.

So... yeah.. we can use it all... and more.

Re: ATK Subsidiaries:
You also missed a few ATK companies.
Ram-Line stocks
Simmons Scopes
Intensity Optics
Nitrex Optics (by Weaver)

[snuffy]

Bill, I agree us AR shooters shoot a lot. BUT how many of them are reloaders? That's where the empty brass would be headed. A visit to the range today netted me about 30 rounds of WCC brass someone had left lay. He's apparently NOT a reloader.

I bought some range pick-ups from GI brass last year, all LC stuff, 1,000 pcs. It's all processed, some has been loaded. That should last me for a couple more years, loosing some in the weeds, and some just plain wearing out. That makes me only able to use a thousand every 3 years, about 1 hr's worth at Ft McCoy.

My list came from the ATK website. If they do own those other shooting related companies, they failed to list them.

[mjm]

The intent and letter of the law should be followed. If the civilian/reloading sector does consume all the mil brass, they can de-mil what is left. There is a difference between de-mil now and throw the scraps in a nod to the law.

These folks have messed up. I vote with my wallet and they just lost my vote.

[steve4102]

BUT how many of them are reloaders? That's where the empty brass would be headed.

Not necessarily, most of this brass is (was) purchased by companies that manufacture and sell "re-manufactured" ammo. The lion's share of this RM ammo is purchased by law enforcement agency.

[Sevens]

Steve is EXACTLY right. A year ago, it was the guy who owns or runs Georgia Arms that played point man in combating this nonsense, because getting this brass at a reasonable cost is the entire basis of his business, a business that funnels countless rounds of affordable ammo in to the hands of American consumers.

[alsmith]

Go to www.govliquidation.com

Do a search for brass

Plenty of once fired brass at auction. No multilation required.

Al

[azredhawk44]

No multilation required.

+1.

All that ATK's program does, is:

1. Increase the cost to govt of ATK's products since they went to the trouble of designing and building machines that mutilitate brass to be melt down. Un-mutilated brass also melts just fine for the smelter. The machine creates no beneficial result, but consumes man-hours and a now use-able resource merely to manipulate the market in ATK's favor so that less brass is available.
2. Reduces the amount of ammo available to companies like Georgia Arms or to the tens of thousands (hundreds of thousands? millions?) of hobbyist reloaders who produce between 500 and 10,000 rounds of ammunition every year.
3. Coddles and caters to nanny-statism beliefs that civilians are just insurrectionists-in-training.
4. Performs a financial end-run round Congress, resulting in less money for government programs over-all so that the base commander can keep a fraction of the scrap values on his base. Disrespectful on his part and a dereliction of his duty to obey Congress, a tradition started with General George Washington.

[azredhawk44]

Also, watch ATK closely and see if they change Lake City ammo to use Berdan primers instead of boxers as a result of this.

Or, if the government mandates that.

That's when you know that the government or ATK has a distinct hatred towards gun-owning America. Well, more so than ATK's wonderful PDF being discussed here.

[riverwalker76]

Go to www.govliquidation.com

Do a search for brass

Plenty of once fired brass at auction. No multilation required.

Al

The problem with that is ... you have to be able to pick up and transport ANY amount you bid on. They usually come in bunches of 8 flats or 4 pallets of 55 gallon drums or square crates. I don't know of anyone other than Jeff Bartlett who has the machinery or the equipment to load that stuff up and transport it.

When you win an auction you have to go to the site where you purchased it. Load it up yourself, and bring it home. A lot of the lots for sale would require a tractor trailer with a forklift in tow to bring it home. They don't load it up for you. You do everything yourself, AND it could be 1000 miles from where you live.

[A_Gamehog]

In the month of January last year when you could not find primers in any online store. ATK had a personel layoff at their lewiston primer plant.

It's called supply and demand, it's based on Politics these days.

http://www.klewtv.com/news/37309514.html

[BillCA]

Originally Posted by snuffy

Bill, I agree us AR shooters shoot a lot. BUT how many of them are reloaders? That's where the empty brass would be headed.

Oh, I agree that too few AR shooters reload their own ammo. They'd rather spend the time and money having fun at the range. But with that said, if only 10% of shooters are reloaders, that's an additional 20-25,000 reloaders coming online (pessimistic: 10k) every year.

steve4102 and Sevens are absolutely correct. The bulk of this brass is purchased by companies like Georigia Arms (and others) plus companies that resell the brass to reloaders. It's an important source of material for the "2nd tier" ammo companies and a source of quality brass for reloaders.

To make it profitable to all parties, the cost of useable brass cartridges has to be MORE than the cost of scrap brass. But the cost of the once-fired brass has to be well under the market cost of new brass too. And the "waste" in the bulk lots can't get too high either (the crushed or damaged cases) or the profit margin disappears.

Originally Posted by azredhawk44

Also, watch ATK closely and see if they change Lake City ammo to use Berdan primers instead of boxers as a result of this.

Or, if the government mandates that.

A good point, however I don't think that will happen. U.S. manufactuers have a lot invested in boxer-primed systems and processes. I also recall seeing (many years ago) a Mil-Std document that claimed there is no advantage to Berdan primed ammo and during wartime it would hinder the ability of any civlian organizations to re-use mil-spec ammo for home guard or coastal defense use. You'd have to get the mil-std changed and that can take years.

[Sevens]

So... not only is the military getting less return in its investment (for the initial brass case), the lack of useable brass decreases jobs, lowers productivity and lowers tax revenues -- not to mention it increases ammo prices to shooters, making it less desireable to maintain skills.

So that one "Green Idea" provides two possible "good" incentives (base funds and an unmeasurable "anti-terrorism" potential) but creates 5 economic negatives.

Not only this, but you used a buzz word in here: "Green." How much energy does it to to demil this brass -- and how much energy does it take to melt it down to scrap metal, and then do something tangible with the metal?

I'm far, FAR from a tree-hugging Greenie. But I'm talking real live electricity and gas or whatever runs the furnaces and plants that does the melting for this. Willfully melting down something that can easily be used and is coveted by a market willing to pay for it.

This is nonsense, and you almost want to try and take the "Earth Friendly" angle on it, just to get the attention of those types. You can't swing a dead cat these days without hearing about someone's (anyone's) "green initiative" and "carbon footprint."

Taking a piece of rifle brass and melting it down to make... rifle brass (or anything made of the metal...) is not much different than taking a car that gets 30 MPG but has a dent in the fender and 50,000 miles on the odometer and melting the car down... and using the rendered metal to build a new car.

Well, here ya go. Give our view a "Green" angle and maybe it gets recognized as being something other than the lunatic fringe.

[snuffy]

Quote:
BUT how many of them are reloaders? That's where the empty brass would be headed.
Not necessarily, most of this brass is (was) purchased by companies that manufacture and sell "re-manufactured" ammo. The lion's share of this RM ammo is purchased by law enforcement agency.

Steve, you're right, I was being narrow minded. I forgot the ammo companies like Black Hills, that re-manufacture ammo using spent military casings.

It will be interesting to see if ATK will do anything about this, more than what they've already done. Ya gotta look at the bigger picture, they're a part of the corporate giant General Dynamics. I actually work for a small factory that makes axles for off road vehicles, that was recently bought by General Dynamics, for their ATK subsidiary.

[BillCA]

Ya gotta look at the bigger picture, they're a part of the corporate giant General Dynamics. I actually work for a small factory that makes axles for off road vehicles, that was recently bought by General Dynamics, for their ATK subsidiary.

You have a source for that?

Alliant/ATK is a large corporation of it's own and I've never heard that GD owns it or any part of it.

I think you're mistaking their Armament and Technical Products division (GD-ATP) for ATK. If your axle company is Axletech then you're part of GD-ATP, not ATK.

[snuffy]

You have a source for that?

Alliant/ATK is a large corporation of it's own and I've never heard that GD owns it or any part of it.

I think you're mistaking their Armament and Technical Products division (GD-ATP) for ATK. If your axle company is Axletech then you're part of GD-ATP, not ATK.

Bill, you may be right, here I was disappointed in GD for being part of this. Now I feel better! Yup, I work at Axletech. It's nice to be under the GD umbrella. ATK, ATP, forgive an old man's failing memory.

[alsmith]

If you buy from the federal government, at auction, or through a government liquidator then you usually buy in large quantities.

Auctions that are currently listed for small arms, once fired brass, do not require multilation.

Yes, you must pick it up and yes it often comes in large amounts.

However, the "no mulilation required" reference is in place for these auction purchases.

Al