Black Powder .45 Colt Recipe

[Uncle Buck]

Hey guys, a friend gave me a can of FFFg black powder and I have some 190 grain semi-wad cutters for my .45 Colt.

I have heard, never seen, of folks loading the .45 with black powder and I want to try it.

What are some recipes you use?

I have not yet gone on loaddata.com to find any myself, but will this evening (or tomorrow evening).

If I understand what I have read in the past, it should be safe to load this and I will have to clean the pistol very good afterwards.

Also, I understand (I think) that I will have to measure the powder by volume, not weight. I currently have a lee dipper (.5cc) and a rifle powder measure (50-120 grains). I have never messed with black powder before and want to be extra careful, that is why I came to you folks.

Thanks.

[kraigwy]

From Cpt Philip Sharpe's COMPLETE GUIDE TO RELOADING, 1952

250 Grn Lead FFg 40 grns gave a velocity of 910 fps seating depth .375
255 grn Lead FFg 40 grns gave a velocity of 900 fps seating depth .500
255 grn Lead FFG 34 grns gave a velocity of 800 fps seating depth .500

He didnt list his barrel lenght. Just make use (as with all BP loads) that the load is compressed, not leaving any empty space in the case.

[Jbar4Ranch]

Your SWC's will work safely, but BP loads tend to be better with the heavier bullets. Lots o' lube is recommended to keep fouling soft, but most modern bullets don't have large enough grease grooves for extended shooting without the revolver binding up. There is also a big difference between lubes designed for smokeless powder and those designed for black powder.

Black powder is measured by volume, rather than weight, and you aren't going to get 40 grains in a modern solid head .45 Colt case (with a 250 grain bullet anyway). From 1873 to about 1882, the original internal Benét priming system that was used would also have prevented the full 40 grain charge from fitting too. In about 1882, the priming method was changed to an external primer fitting into a pocket in the case head just as we see today, but the case heads were "folded" and had a slightly larger internal capacity than today's cases.
Use a measure that will fill the case to at least where the base of the bullet will be when seated; compression of the powder is often desirable, and perfectly safe - perhaps up to about 1/16". Empty space between the powder and bullet base is undesirable, but won't create an unsafe condition unless excessive - for instance 1/16" will be fine, but having half the case empty can be dangerous. Err on the side of safety and use a compressed load.

Clean the bore, cylinder, and frame with hot soapy water, dry thoroughly (compressed air is good here), then use an oiled patch through the bore and chambers.

Original BP factory rounds of the 19th century are claimed to have been in the 900 fps range with a 255 grain lead bullet from a 7 1/2" revolver barrel... damn potent medicine by any standard.

[B.L.E.]

If I understand what I have read in the past, it should be safe to load this and I will have to clean the pistol very good afterwards.

The good news is that black powder fouling practically rinses off with water. Smokeless fouling is actually more difficult to clean.

[Edward429451]

Can you get too much black powder into a modern case to get you in trouble with? I hear of fellahs filling up 45/70 cases and carding it flat to the top of case and seating a bullet...a 45 Colt is smaller brass/smaller bullet....

I have no clue, I have never played with black powder. One of you CAS shooters chime in and edumacate us smokeless folks. Maybe explain granulation too.

[Jbar4Ranch]

Can you get too much black powder into a modern case to get you in trouble with?
With the proper granulation, no.

I hear of fellahs filling up 45/70 cases and carding it flat to the top of case and seating a bullet...
If they are seating the bullet more than about a quarter inch into the case, they're lying to you. A lot of us use a drop tube to settle the powder as much as possible, then use a pre-compression die to compress the powder to the proper depth before seating a bullet - this is mainly done with rifle cartridges only. If you try and compress the powder very far with just the bullet alone, you will deform the bullet.

Maybe explain granulation too.
"Cannon grade" is the coarsest granulation, and is used in, well, cannons and fireworks.
1F is next and is commonly used in large bore muskets or BP shotgun shells.
1 1/2F is used in big BP cartridge guns such as .45-70 and up. Swiss is the only brand I can think of that markets this granulation. Swiss 1 1/2 is the "go to" powder for most long range competitive BP shooters.
2F is also used in the same big bore rifle cartridges and handgun cartridges such as the .45 Colt, .44-40, and .38-40, as well as shotgun shells and muzzleloading rifles above .50 cal. This is about the granulation that black powder was available in back in the day.
Cartridge or CTG is more or less between 2F and 3F, but has also been screened a second time to produce more uniform grain size. I've had very good luck with Goex CTG in .38-55. On a cool, calm day, I've shot groups of 8 to 8 1/2" @ 500 yards. (No scope, just a decent tang sight)
3F is probably the most commonly used size, and some folks use it in cartridges as large as .45-70. This is also the most commonly used granulation in BP revolver cartridges, muzzleloading rifles, and C&B revolvers.
4F is used mainly for priming the pan on flintlocks. I have heard of granulations as fine as 7F, but I believe 4F is the finest granulation you'll find today.

[Scorch]

You will have not be able to get 40 gr of FFFg into a solid-head case, and just maybe if you load an old balloon-head case unless you use a hollow-base bullet. 35 gr FFFg with a 250 or 255 gr lead bullet (remember to use black powder lube!!) will give you about 900 fps. Seat the bullet all the way down onto the powder and crimp.

I hear of fellahs filling up 45/70 cases and carding it flat to the top of case and seating a bullet...

BPCR target shooters do fill the case, then put a cardboard wad over the powder. When they shoot the rifle, they first push the bullet into the chamber and use the loaded case to push the bullet into the rifling. I have never done this, but I have seen it.

Can you get too much black powder into a modern case to get you in trouble with?

No.

[B.L.E.]

Black powder is measured by volume, rather than weight

If it's real black powder, you can measure it by weight or volume, it's the black powder substitutes that you must measure by volume with a powder measure calibrated for black powder.

The reason is that they are less dense than black powder but are designed to replace black powder by a volume basis not a weight basis.

One black powder substitute, Blackhorn 209, gives charges by volume for muzzle loading firearms but lists charges by weight for cartridges. That's because a muzzle loading shooter is more likely to have a volumetric measure calibrated for black powder with him and a reloader is more likely to own a scale.

[Jim Watson]

I have READ but not tried that a Wonder Wad under a smokeless lubed bullet will work ok with black.

[Slamfire]

There is also a big difference between lubes designed for smokeless powder and those designed for black powder.

Yes. I found using modern lead bullets with modern lubes my bore totally caked up.

I this under "BPCR lubes" on the web :

"Emmerts" - provided by Ken Hurst
This is an old lube but still has a following and has never failed me when using it for Black Powder. I understand it can be used for smokeless if you are using low-pressure loads.
50% bees wax
40% Crisco or lard
10% canola oil
I heat this in a dbl boiler to mix. Do not heat in a micro wave as it offers too much heat usually. I fill my lubasizer with the lube while it is hot and it works well. I have also pan lubed with good success.

I used a 50/50 mix of Cricso and Bees wax on Minie balls Worked great.

Information on BP loading and pan lubing.

http://www.davidscottharper.com/shoot/BP_for_CAS.htm

Driftwood Johnson's pan lubing

http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=301.0

I found on the SASS page a

[Edward429451]

Thanks guys, I feel like I've been to BP school.

So if I read you correctly, I can use that unopened can of Goex FFg that my buddy gave me in my 45/70 or my 44 mag / 45 Colt if I wanted to, right?

The guy who told me about filliing and carding for his 45/70 has a single shot Trapdoor rifle and says he doesn't even own dies, he punches out the primer with a nail and seats new against table, fills, cards, seats bullet and into his gun it goes, no crimp or anything. Says he's been doing this for years. Think he's telling tall tales?

[Hawg]

The guy who told me about filliing and carding for his 45/70 has a single shot Trapdoor rifle and says he doesn't even own dies, he punches out the primer with a nail and seats new against table, fills, cards, seats bullet and into his gun it goes, no crimp or anything. Says he's been doing this for years. Think he's telling tall tales?

I dunno bout filling to top of case and carding off level and then seating a bullet but the rest of it will work.

[Uncle Buck]

OK guys, I think I kinda sorta get it.

What-ever charge I use, I have to make sure there is no (or extremely little) air space between the powder and the bullet.

I am kinda worried about the "fill the case to capacity and compress it" thing. If I do not fill the case with black powder, can I use the filling from my wife's couch pillows to make up the room between the bottom of my bullet and the powder? Use card board? I need to come up with another measure, as mine starts at 50 grains.

I appreciate the info you guys have posted and like Edward said, it is a short crash course in BP.

[Jbar4Ranch]

Greased felt wads would work fine, as long as you don't fill half the case with them, and they add enough lube to keep you going for a few cylinders. Cream of Wheat or Grits are commonly used too. Just find something to use as a measure and fill the case up to the base of the bullet - maybe cut down a split .45 case, or try a .44 special case or somesuch. A set of Lee dippers is only, what, ten bucks? Don't "scoop" the powder, but rather push the measure into a bowl of powder and let the powder flow into it in an upright position so it doesn't compress any like it would if scooping. Scrape off level with the top of the measure and pour it into the case. You will also find that varying amounts of compression will affect accuracy too. BP is quite forgiving, and pressures/accuracy are very uniform even if you're off half a grain or more one way or the other.
Elmer Keith always used to suggest that a new reloader start with black powder to get accustomed to the process before trying smokeless because, as long as the case was full, you couldn't really do anything wrong and blow your gun up.

[zippy13]

The ''fill to capacity and then compress" works with rifles; but, just because your revolver is loaded with BP doesn't mean that you'll be exempted from recoil induced bullet pull. Without enough friction and/or crimp resistance, those lead puppies are going to wanna dance.

Let's hope any pull will jamb the cylinder before there's an excessive void between powder and bullet. Anyone experienced revolver bullet pull problems with BP cartridge loads?

[Uncle Buck]

Zippy, you are saying to seat and crimp firmly, correct?

[zippy13]

Just do what you've been doing. I don't really crimp, it's more like straightening out the flare. What I was trying to point out was that single shot rifle shooters are loading under a totally different set of rules. They can get away with a bullet just barely inserted into the case, six-gunners can't.

[noelf2]

I wouldn't do it simply because the black powder residue will get into the works of the gun, and will be a PITA to clean. If you don't clean with BP solvents or good old hot soapy water, everywhere the fouling lands, it will rust on you. Not worth it with a modern gun. I do load 45LC with BP. I use 30 grains FFFg (volume), one lubed felt wad, and a 250 grain LRN bullet with 50/50 beeswax/crisco hand squished into the lube groove. Works well for me in a '58 remi replica. I've recently taken to loading 45lc with trailboss at cowboy action pressures. Lot's easier to clean and way more shooting before needing cleaned. No fouling binding up the works.

[Uncle Buck]

Thanks guys. After reading your replies, I need to get another powder measure and some lubed felt pads before I proceed.

As usual, you are all a wealth of information.