Nazi CZ 27 - I have a Few Questions

SwearNoAllegiance · April 1, 2009, 12:51 PM

I've had this pistol for a number of years now. My non-sentimental friend gave it to me under the auspices that it was a worthless hunk of rusted metal. My understanding is that it is a WWII bring back from his grandfather. It has no papers, but is Nazi stamped and his grandfather did, in fact, fight in the European theater.

This pistol has seen its better days. The basement where this thing originally was kept, flooded and the pistol was not adequately cleaned or maintained. Although it has a good bore and nice rifling, there is no bluing and many spots of rust. When I got it, I did what I could for it and put it in a drawer. But now, I want to shoot it. It is missing the magazine and grip screws, but when I depress the bar inside the magazine well, I can work the trigger and hammer. I believe it is functional, but am not sure. Here are some pics:

The thing is a true pain in the posterior to take apart and put back together.

Honestly, I am still a newb when it comes to my knowledge of firearms. I'm learning so bear with me.

I am hoping an experienced cruffler might answer a few questions about it.

Based on what you see of the gun, do you think it would be functional? Where can I pick up a magazine? How much do you think it is worth (if functional) and since I've never been to a gunsmith, how much do you think it would cost to get the gun checked out?

I appreciate it.

mp25ds4 · April 1, 2009, 02:32 PM

you could probly pick up a magazine off of gunbroker.com. It cost me 60$ a piece to get my guns inspected to see if thery were safe to shoot and what I would you could do is steel wool all parts except for the grips of this pistol and get it reblued, I do not know if this would help or hurt the value, and I have no idea of the value

James K · April 1, 2009, 04:24 PM

That is a CZ-27, a somewhat simplified modification of the .380 caliber CZ-24. The CZ-27 was made in large numbers for the German forces after Germany took over Czechoslovakia, because 7.65 Browning (.32 ACP) was in the German military supply system while 9mm Short (.380 ACP) was not. There were a couple of marking variations but the total production was around 476,000, 215,000 being of that variation. They were widely issued in the German service and were probably the most common European "bringback" pistols next to P.38's and Lugers.

Gun Parts Corp (www.gunpartscorp.com) has after market magazines.

I see nothing that would indicate the gun is not perfectly OK to fire.

Since you have the sideplate off, lubricate the works with a few drops of gun oil, and wipe it down with oil or something like G96 Gun Treatment to kill any rust. The only part that sometimes breaks, aside from the front bottom of the grips, is the tip of the safety release (the part with the button in front of the grip). The gun is quite easy to field strip, but I don't recommend going beyond that unless you have some experience.

As to a reblue, that is up to you. It will not really increase or decrease the value, since the guns are so common that there is little collector value. Current sale prices for that variation in that condition would be around $200+.

HTH

Jim

SwearNoAllegiance · April 1, 2009, 05:43 PM

Thanks Jim, I greatly appreciate that.

Quote:

Current sale prices for that variation in that condition would be around $200+.

One man's trash is another man's treasure, they say. Now I just need to get a k98 to go along with it.

TEDDY · April 7, 2009, 09:44 AM

I had one right after WW2. it was a good shooter.

Pisgah · May 14, 2010, 09:22 AM

I was messing around on the internet doing a google search hoping to find the serial number cutoff for the Cz-27 for pistols produced wartime versus postwar and came across this thread. I actually own a few of them and wanted to add to what Jim Keenan has told you and politely disagree with one thing he stated. Your pistol is not missing its blueing. It was never blued. It is a late war pistol and was originally phosphated. This finish has a gray, slightly greenish appearance and almost looks unfinished. I know that is the case from experience and because I can see your pistol's grip is missing the CZ logo, which is a sign of latewar (and perhaps some postwar) grips. This phosphate finish started somewhere around the 400000 serial number range and I'm betting your pistol is a bit later than that due to the grips. I would advise you not to use steel wool to clean this finish (or any blued item for that matter) as it will damage the phosphated finish. Gun solvent and a rag, perhaps light use of a bronze/brass brush should do just fine. The point I would like to disagree with Jim on is refinishing. These pistols sell for roughly $300-550 depending on condition. If you refinish your pistol it will fall to the low end of value. As you have stated the bore condition is good with nice rifling, there is likely no reason it is not fully functional. Parts and magazines for these are available on GunBroker. I'd probably find an original magazine there in lieu of spending a similar amount for a repro and the grip screws may be a bit harder to find although Numrich might be a choice for that.

James K · May 14, 2010, 11:49 AM

This is an old thread, so presumably the OP has by now done whatever he wanted to do, but I never said the gun was originally blued; I have seen hundreds of those Model 27's, so I know what the original finishes look like.

I am inclined to think that your value estimate is high; the gun is obviously not perfect; whether bluing (I didn't say "rebluing") it would decrease the value that much depends pretty much on what the value is now.

Jim

publius · May 14, 2010, 12:44 PM

neat, kinda tokarev looking.

Evergreen · May 14, 2010, 12:55 PM

Nice looking piece. Something like that I would hang on my wall, not bring to the shooting range. AN older relic like that will likely skyrocket in value over time. Well thats just me, I have other guns to shoot and wouldn't want to risk messing with such a collector's item as this.

kodiakbeer · May 14, 2010, 01:30 PM

I was offered one of those many years ago, and wish I'd bought it. The sellers father took it from a German female camp guard or railway guard or something like that. I think these were mostly relegated to people like that, rather than to fighting troops.

dean1818 · May 14, 2010, 05:01 PM

I was told that many of the Luftwaffe pilots carried them in WWII, because of their smaller size.

CZ made and makes great weapons

Pisgah · May 14, 2010, 08:58 PM

The part I was disagreeing with Jim on was his estimate of value. I also realized that the thread is old. I just figured in case it saved anyone from modifying a pistol in collectible condition that it was worth pointing out that this one was not missing its original finish and that the value of these has gone up over the last 5-10 years. At this point $200 for a decent example is considered a bargain. Although gun shop/pawn shop pricing on these may still be $200-350, GunBroker pricing is higher. Here are links to a few recent GB auctions for Cz-27's which ended in sales:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=161005333

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=161298672

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=161534270

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=163503931

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=165928634

Those are every GB auction listed in their "featured" auctions over the last 60 days which ended in an actual sale (using search terms "cz 27"). I didn't leave out any that went for lower amounts and believe the cheapest of the five listed went for $306. I could have included non-featured auctions but figured five was enough. Granted, online prices run high, but my point is that the Cz-27's definitely fall into a collectible category (as do pretty much all German WWII firearms) and that one should think twice before removing original finish for the sake of creating a shooter.

gyvel · May 19, 2010, 05:42 AM

I was under the impression that grips missing the "CZ" logo were strictly post war. Can you supply details on that?

SIGSHR · May 19, 2010, 01:25 PM

Does it have the Waffenamt stamp-a small eagle with outspread wings clutching a swastika-anywhere on it? That really makes it a "Nazi", i.e produced after the occupation of Czechoslovakia in 1939.
I have one, bought it from the son of the vet who brought it back. Somewhat clunky design, doesn't point well, solidly made, a good shooter.

Pisgah · May 19, 2010, 07:37 PM

I'm a Kar.98k collector and not an expert on Cz-27's. I have a copy of Berger's book,"Know Your Czechoslovakian Pistols". It states that the last occupation Cz-27 was serial number 473000. Whether this is exact or not I don't know. That author references the dropping of the CZ grip logo as happening wartime so I believe it is possible to have a correct, original pistol with the generic grips. The Germans gradually dropped Czech language incriptions as the war went on. The earliest occupation pistols still had Ceska Zbrojovka factory markings which the Germans switched to Bohmische Waffenfabrik. Generally speaking I would think that the presence of the Nazi firing proofs on a pistol would be indicative of wartime production vs. postwar.

gyvel · May 21, 2010, 05:03 AM

Quote:

That author references the dropping of the CZ grip logo as happening wartime so I believe it is possible to have a correct, original pistol with the generic grips.

Interesting, thanks. I have a couple pairs of those grips and always wondered about them. I thought they possibly had come from some post-war, post Communist takeover "sanitized" version.

johnwilliamson062 · May 21, 2010, 10:52 AM

Quote:

As to a reblue, that is up to you. It will not really increase or decrease the value, since the guns are so common that there is little collector value. Current sale prices for that variation in that condition would be around $200+.

I wonder if that was ever said about Lugers.

SIGSHR · May 21, 2010, 01:49 PM

I am not sure if the wartime ones were really blued. Mine is in excellent shape, no rust, no real signs of wear, for lack of better knowledge i would say it is "Parkerized" or whatever the German equivalent was.

**44 AMP** · May 21, 2010, 07:22 PM

Quote:

As to a reblue, that is up to you. It will not really increase or decrease the value, since the guns are so common that there is little collector value. Current sale prices for that variation in that condition would be around $200+.

I wonder if that was ever said about Lugers.

Back in the 1950s, you could mail order a Luger for $30. or even less. Look where they (and we) are now!

Pisgah · May 21, 2010, 09:44 PM

Early Cz-27's had a deep, high quality blue. A bit later they had slides which had a plum appearance. Next came the rougher phosphate and finally the fragile light green stuff which almost didn't look like a finish at all.

April 1, 2009, 12:51 PM	#1
SwearNoAllegiance Junior Member Join Date: January 14, 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 2	Nazi CZ 27 - I have a Few Questions I've had this pistol for a number of years now. My non-sentimental friend gave it to me under the auspices that it was a worthless hunk of rusted metal. My understanding is that it is a WWII bring back from his grandfather. It has no papers, but is Nazi stamped and his grandfather did, in fact, fight in the European theater. This pistol has seen its better days. The basement where this thing originally was kept, flooded and the pistol was not adequately cleaned or maintained. Although it has a good bore and nice rifling, there is no bluing and many spots of rust. When I got it, I did what I could for it and put it in a drawer. But now, I want to shoot it. It is missing the magazine and grip screws, but when I depress the bar inside the magazine well, I can work the trigger and hammer. I believe it is functional, but am not sure. Here are some pics: The thing is a true pain in the posterior to take apart and put back together. Honestly, I am still a newb when it comes to my knowledge of firearms. I'm learning so bear with me. I am hoping an experienced cruffler might answer a few questions about it. Based on what you see of the gun, do you think it would be functional? Where can I pick up a magazine? How much do you think it is worth (if functional) and since I've never been to a gunsmith, how much do you think it would cost to get the gun checked out? I appreciate it.

April 7, 2009, 09:44 AM	#5
TEDDY Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2006 Location: MANNING SC Posts: 837	cz27 I had one right after WW2. it was a good shooter.

May 14, 2010, 09:22 AM	#6
Pisgah Junior Member Join Date: May 14, 2010 Posts: 4	I was messing around on the internet doing a google search hoping to find the serial number cutoff for the Cz-27 for pistols produced wartime versus postwar and came across this thread. I actually own a few of them and wanted to add to what Jim Keenan has told you and politely disagree with one thing he stated. Your pistol is not missing its blueing. It was never blued. It is a late war pistol and was originally phosphated. This finish has a gray, slightly greenish appearance and almost looks unfinished. I know that is the case from experience and because I can see your pistol's grip is missing the CZ logo, which is a sign of latewar (and perhaps some postwar) grips. This phosphate finish started somewhere around the 400000 serial number range and I'm betting your pistol is a bit later than that due to the grips. I would advise you not to use steel wool to clean this finish (or any blued item for that matter) as it will damage the phosphated finish. Gun solvent and a rag, perhaps light use of a bronze/brass brush should do just fine. The point I would like to disagree with Jim on is refinishing. These pistols sell for roughly $300-550 depending on condition. If you refinish your pistol it will fall to the low end of value. As you have stated the bore condition is good with nice rifling, there is likely no reason it is not fully functional. Parts and magazines for these are available on GunBroker. I'd probably find an original magazine there in lieu of spending a similar amount for a repro and the grip screws may be a bit harder to find although Numrich might be a choice for that. Last edited by Pisgah; May 14, 2010 at 09:46 AM.

May 14, 2010, 12:44 PM	#8
publius Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2005 Location: Mississippi/Texas Posts: 2,505	neat, kinda tokarev looking. __________________ "Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress, but I repeat myself." Mark Twain

May 19, 2010, 01:25 PM	#14
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	Does it have the Waffenamt stamp-a small eagle with outspread wings clutching a swastika-anywhere on it? That really makes it a "Nazi", i.e produced after the occupation of Czechoslovakia in 1939. I have one, bought it from the son of the vet who brought it back. Somewhat clunky design, doesn't point well, solidly made, a good shooter. Last edited by SIGSHR; May 21, 2010 at 01:45 PM.

April 1, 2009, 02:32 PM	#2
mp25ds4 Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2009 Posts: 392	you could probly pick up a magazine off of gunbroker.com. It cost me 60$ a piece to get my guns inspected to see if thery were safe to shoot and what I would you could do is steel wool all parts except for the grips of this pistol and get it reblued, I do not know if this would help or hurt the value, and I have no idea of the value

April 1, 2009, 04:24 PM	#3
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	That is a CZ-27, a somewhat simplified modification of the .380 caliber CZ-24. The CZ-27 was made in large numbers for the German forces after Germany took over Czechoslovakia, because 7.65 Browning (.32 ACP) was in the German military supply system while 9mm Short (.380 ACP) was not. There were a couple of marking variations but the total production was around 476,000, 215,000 being of that variation. They were widely issued in the German service and were probably the most common European "bringback" pistols next to P.38's and Lugers. Gun Parts Corp (www.gunpartscorp.com) has after market magazines. I see nothing that would indicate the gun is not perfectly OK to fire. Since you have the sideplate off, lubricate the works with a few drops of gun oil, and wipe it down with oil or something like G96 Gun Treatment to kill any rust. The only part that sometimes breaks, aside from the front bottom of the grips, is the tip of the safety release (the part with the button in front of the grip). The gun is quite easy to field strip, but I don't recommend going beyond that unless you have some experience. As to a reblue, that is up to you. It will not really increase or decrease the value, since the guns are so common that there is little collector value. Current sale prices for that variation in that condition would be around $200+. HTH Jim

May 14, 2010, 11:49 AM	#7
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	This is an old thread, so presumably the OP has by now done whatever he wanted to do, but I never said the gun was originally blued; I have seen hundreds of those Model 27's, so I know what the original finishes look like. I am inclined to think that your value estimate is high; the gun is obviously not perfect; whether bluing (I didn't say "rebluing") it would decrease the value that much depends pretty much on what the value is now. Jim

May 14, 2010, 12:55 PM	#9
Evergreen Member Join Date: May 14, 2010 Location: Northern Cascades, WA Posts: 66	Nice looking piece. Something like that I would hang on my wall, not bring to the shooting range. AN older relic like that will likely skyrocket in value over time. Well thats just me, I have other guns to shoot and wouldn't want to risk messing with such a collector's item as this.

May 14, 2010, 01:30 PM	#10
kodiakbeer Junior member Join Date: April 10, 2010 Location: Kodiak, Alaska Posts: 791	I was offered one of those many years ago, and wish I'd bought it. The sellers father took it from a German female camp guard or railway guard or something like that. I think these were mostly relegated to people like that, rather than to fighting troops.

May 14, 2010, 05:01 PM	#11
dean1818 Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2009 Location: Frisco Texas Posts: 844	I was told that many of the Luftwaffe pilots carried them in WWII, because of their smaller size. CZ made and makes great weapons

May 14, 2010, 08:58 PM	#12
Pisgah Junior Member Join Date: May 14, 2010 Posts: 4	The part I was disagreeing with Jim on was his estimate of value. I also realized that the thread is old. I just figured in case it saved anyone from modifying a pistol in collectible condition that it was worth pointing out that this one was not missing its original finish and that the value of these has gone up over the last 5-10 years. At this point $200 for a decent example is considered a bargain. Although gun shop/pawn shop pricing on these may still be $200-350, GunBroker pricing is higher. Here are links to a few recent GB auctions for Cz-27's which ended in sales: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=161005333 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=161298672 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=161534270 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=163503931 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=165928634 Those are every GB auction listed in their "featured" auctions over the last 60 days which ended in an actual sale (using search terms "cz 27"). I didn't leave out any that went for lower amounts and believe the cheapest of the five listed went for $306. I could have included non-featured auctions but figured five was enough. Granted, online prices run high, but my point is that the Cz-27's definitely fall into a collectible category (as do pretty much all German WWII firearms) and that one should think twice before removing original finish for the sake of creating a shooter.

May 19, 2010, 05:42 AM	#13
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	I was under the impression that grips missing the "CZ" logo were strictly post war. Can you supply details on that?

May 19, 2010, 07:37 PM	#15
Pisgah Junior Member Join Date: May 14, 2010 Posts: 4	I'm a Kar.98k collector and not an expert on Cz-27's. I have a copy of Berger's book,"Know Your Czechoslovakian Pistols". It states that the last occupation Cz-27 was serial number 473000. Whether this is exact or not I don't know. That author references the dropping of the CZ grip logo as happening wartime so I believe it is possible to have a correct, original pistol with the generic grips. The Germans gradually dropped Czech language incriptions as the war went on. The earliest occupation pistols still had Ceska Zbrojovka factory markings which the Germans switched to Bohmische Waffenfabrik. Generally speaking I would think that the presence of the Nazi firing proofs on a pistol would be indicative of wartime production vs. postwar.

May 21, 2010, 01:49 PM	#18
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	I am not sure if the wartime ones were really blued. Mine is in excellent shape, no rust, no real signs of wear, for lack of better knowledge i would say it is "Parkerized" or whatever the German equivalent was.

May 21, 2010, 09:44 PM	#20
Pisgah Junior Member Join Date: May 14, 2010 Posts: 4	Early Cz-27's had a deep, high quality blue. A bit later they had slides which had a plum appearance. Next came the rougher phosphate and finally the fragile light green stuff which almost didn't look like a finish at all.