Connecticut Valley Arms Philly Deringer kit found after years...

[banditt007]

KA712-Philadelphia Drringer kit




Long story short my buddy was cleaning out his house, and found this derringer kit, knowing i like guns he gave it to me.

You basically have to assemble it yourself and finish the wood, and do a bit of wood removal to get the parts to fit as they should.

With that said, it comes w/ assembly instructions, but mentions a "You can shoot it" manual to refer to when...you want to load it up to shoot....alas my buddy and I, cannot find the manual.

If anyone has one and can send photos/link me to where i can find it would be great.

I'm looking for what kind of black powder to use, and patchs/balls/ram rod/what percussion caps ect (prob all delt w/ in the "you can shoot it" manual, if i can get my hands on one.)

this will be my first black powder gun. I found only a couple mentions of this gun and apparently thousands were imported from spain as a DIY black powder kit in the 80's...this one is percussion, has straight rifling and shoots .440 round balls. Most people have them as wall hangers...i want to shoot it. Some mentioned it shot safely but had horrible accuracy which is expected...its an 'in your face' type gun i'm not exactly expecting to keep it in the 10 ring.

So any info would be great i'm going to get to building it within a few weeks should be a neat project.

[mec]

We might have had this discussion on thehighroad a while back. I seem to remember the picture. that site is down right now but here's what we got with an identical kit. the inlays are not yet in place over the barrel pin and a brass sight is added but it is the same

[banditt007]

in a yahoo search, the highroad.org did pop up one thread, but as you mentioned the site is down. i'm having trouble finding much if any info reguarding this gun.

[Rangefinder]

That looks a little familiar--I build the longer version as a kid. Is it .45 cal or .36? Oh, they're fun...

Stupid as it sounds now, I never went by any factory measure or anything else for the first couple years shooting it. Just got some FFF black powder, #10 priming caps, and some .45 caliber balls, and headed out to the back yard. First time was "oh, two caps full of powder ought to be enough..." (as in the lid to the powder can...) Ya, it was plenty--the ball pressed powder at almost half way down the barrel. "Uh-oh, this is gonna hurt..." Well, it didn't blow me up, and after the smoke cleared I saw I hit the coffee can I was aiming at...

Point is, you really can't screw those things up. Otherwise I would have as a dumb kid long ago.

Here's some figures to get you started in a better way... The velocities are measured from longer barrels, but the powder measure and ball weight will give you something to go by.

Seneca, 36 caliber
Round ball loads (.350", 65 grains):
40 grains FFFg - 1894 FPS - 518 ft.lbs
50 grains FFFg - 2034 FPS - 597 ft.lbs
60 grains FFFg - 2150 FPS - 667 ft.lbs

Maxi-Ball loads (128 grains):
40 grains FFFg - 1761 FPS - 882 ft.lbs
50 grains FFFg - 1843 FPS - 965 ft.lbs
60 grains FFFg - 2001 FPS - 1138 ft.lbs

Seneca, 45 caliber
Round ball loads (.440", 127 grains):
50 grains FFg - 1584 FPS - 707 ft.lbs
60 grains FFg - 1701 FPS - 816 ft.lbs
70 grains FFg - 1800 FPS - 914 ft.lbs
80 grains FFg - 1904 FPS - 1022 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 1980 FPS - 1106 ft.lbs

Maxi-Ball loads (240 grains):
60 grains FFg - 1369 FPS - 915 ft.lbs
70 grains FFg - 1456 FPS - 1036 ft.lbs
80 grains FFg - 1541 FPS - 1160 ft.lbs

Hawken, 45 caliber
Round ball loads (.440", 127 grains):
50 grains FFg - 1605 FPS - 732 ft.lbs
60 grains FFg - 1720 FPS - 841 ft.lbs
70 grains FFg - 1825 FPS - 947 ft.lbs
80 grains FFg - 1929 FPS - 1054 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 2003 FPS - 1140 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 2081 FPS - 1231 ft.lbs
110 grains FFg - 2158 FPS - 1324 ft.lbs

Maxi-Ball loads (240 grains):
80 grains FFg - 1564 FPS - 1195 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 1659 FPS - 1345 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 1743 FPS - 1485 ft.lbs

Renegade & Hawken, 50 caliber
Round ball loads (.490", 175 grains):
50 grains FFg - 1357 FPS - 761 ft.lbs
60 grains FFg - 1434 FPS - 850 ft.lbs
70 grains FFg - 1643 FPS - 1115 ft.lbs
80 grains FFg - 1838 FPS - 1396 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 1950 FPS - 1571 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 2052 FPS - 1739 ft.lbs
110 grains FFg - 2135 FPS - 1883 ft.lbs

Maxi-Ball loads (370 grains):
80 grains FFg - 1271 FPS - 1328 ft.lbs
90 grains FFg - 1344 FPS - 1484 ft.lbs
100 grains FFg - 1418 FPS - 1652 ft.lbs

[banditt007]

she's a .45 cal. thanks for the above info. is there anyway to know what size primer caps you need to use? like measuring the nipple or something like that. and FFFg is the reccomended grade of black powder for short barreled guns like this.

[mec]

Either Number ten or eleven will work.

[mykeal]

Here's a picture of mine, built in late 1979, early 1980.





It shoots a .440 patched round ball (0.010 lubed patch) using 20 gr fffg Goex bp and No. 10 caps.

If the range is over 7 yards the target should be essentially a large red barn, broad side on.

It is much more effective at 2-3 yards, or essentially the distance across a poker table.

I'm pretty sure I still have the "You can shoot it" booklet around somewhere; I'll start a search tomorrow and post a message if I can find it. However, it has very little (I recall none) information specific to that pistol.

I also have the Colonial and Kentucky pistols in .45 cal and the Hawken pistol in .50 cal, all built from kits in about the same time frame. All still in good shape and still usable. The .45's also shoot the .440 patched ball, but can use up to 40 gr fffg. The .50 shoots a .490 patched rb with 20 to 50 gr fffg and a No. 11 cap.

[banditt007]

Thanks for the info and pics!

[Jbar4Ranch]

I've got a few of those myself. Two of these were purchased as incomplete kits from eBay or yard sales or somesuch, and I had to build trigger guards for them out of brass flat stock from the hobby shop, plus make pins, screws, or whatever else was missing.

[mykeal]

Very nice! Looks like you did an excellent job, too.

I notice only one has the brass decoration for the barrel pin and front sight - if you're interested in getting original parts for the others Deer Creek Products stocks some CVA kit parts from that era. They are at 765-525-6181. They do not have a web site or email address. I've done business with them several times and have had no problems.

[Hkmp5sd]

I got one! Can I play? Built it back in 1981 while stationed at the sub base in Groton, CT.

[Birdland]

Banditt007,

I recently found the same derringer kit buried in some junk in my Dad's garage here in Tennessee. I have the shooting instructions, which I can scan and send you, if you would be willing to send me the assembly instructions so I can put mine together correctly.

You can email me at [email protected]

Thanks,

Birdland

[B.L.E.]

I have one too, it seems that this is a case where less is more when it comes to powder charges.
The barrel is so short that if you try to put in 30 grains of powder, the powder takes up so much of the barrel that the barrel left over to accelerate the bullet is so short that you actually seem to get better velocities with lower charges. I usually shoot mine with 10 or 15 grains of fffg, any more is a waste of powder, i.e. it doesn't seem to make the pistol more powerful.

[Rangefinder]

if you would be willing to send me the assembly instructions so I can put mine together correctly.

I'm not sure there is much in the instructions that couldn't be figured out with a little thought. But if you run into problems, drop a PM with the issue and we'll sort it out---or B), just say "to hell with it" and send it to me I'd gladly take it off your hands! On a serious note, I could build it for you, but it kind of takes the fun out of it for you unless you're just interested in the shooting of it. Not that complicated and I have a full wood shop with a history in metals. Yell if you need a hand.

[DrLaw]

This is what I did with my kit.



The Doc is out now.

[DrLaw]

There is no 'manual' that comes with this kit. It is fairly straightforward to those who know guns what to do, but since it sounds like you need a little help, please allow me.

Some of the wood will have to be removed to get the metal to wood fit to be good. Take a candle and smoke the edges of the metal where ever the part is supposed to be and push the part into the wood. The soot will show you where to cut the wood.

Helpful for this will be a small chisel or an X-Acto style blade (Hobby shops).

For bluing or browning the barrel, there are parts supply places such as Dixie Gun Works, Brownell's, Midway, Natchez, etc... that sell simple bluing or browning solutions. I used a browning solution.

You will need a drill and vice or drill press for one precise thing that you will need to do with this gun. That is the drilling of the hole in the stock and wood for the pin that holds the front of the barrel to the stock. There is a piece of metal that looks like two slabs welded together. This dovetails onto the bottom of the barrel. This may take some filing. Again, check a hobby shop for "NEEDLE FILES" that will work. Feel free to file the barrel as it is thick enough that you will not have to worry about it bursting where the dovetail is. ONLY, file the side of the dovetail, not deeper into the dovetail.
Measure carefully when drilling.

Let's see, what else. You may have to file the nipple down for a better cap ignition. Mine was actually cutting the copper foil out of the cap. Filing a flatter contact surface means that the fulminate will ignite.

Oh yeah, polishing the metal before applying the finish. Two ways to go. Dremel Moto-tool and attachments with polishing compound, or finer and finer grits of sandpaper then emory paper. Finally, finishing the wood. There is plenty of wood that you can take off the stock, as shown by MEC's and mine (based on MEC's) as opposed to the original (all shown by the other photos). Make it your own though, subtract wood or not. Wood finishing materials are available at hardware, or also through the places I mentioned earlier.

As for loads. I use up to 25 grains FFFG, a .440 patched round ball. My 'ramrod' is the handle and shaft of a magnetic tip screwdriver.

Have fun!

The Doc is out now.

[Smokin_Gun]

DrLaw Congrads on the find and the xlint job of putting it together ...