Where can you fire fully automatic?

Spacelord · March 5, 2011, 05:13 PM

Hey all, firearm newbie here. I am still planning to buy a .22 lever action as my first rifle. However I have seen lots of videos on youtube of guys firing full auto rifles like the AK47 and M16. Where can you go to use or even acquire a full auto rifle? I was under the impression that it's illegal for a civilian to own or use one in the US. Thanks guys.

Brian Pfleuger · March 5, 2011, 05:39 PM

The legality of full-auto weapons depends on your state law. There are no more full-auto weapons allowed to be added to the "registry" after 1986. As such, they are relatively rare and very, very expensive.

To be legal under federal law, you need only pay the ATF a $200 fee and do some paperwork.

However, the guns themselves start out roughly in the $5000 area and go WAY up from there.

Also, there are places where you can go to shoot them. A Google search will locate some ranges for you.

The preceding information is a general run down, an approximation if you will, and not intended to be legal advice. It may not be strictly, absolutely correct or absolutely precise.

testuser · March 5, 2011, 05:49 PM

I fire my full auto in my backyard, just like any other weapon.

Regulation of machine guns, suppressors, short barreled rifles, and "any other weapon" fall under the National Firearms Act (NFA) of 1934.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act

In the late 60's importation of machineguns was banned and in 1986 new production of transferable civilian machineguns was made illegal. The weapons themselves were never outlawed, but rather grandfathered. So, all we can do is trade the weapons that were in the registry in 1986. Supply is constant and demand goes up.

Some states have banned posession of machine guns and NFA Weapons, but in most places they're actually still legal, even in very liberal states. In my state machine guns are registered and can be in two places: at the registered location or in my posession away from the registered location, loaning it to a friend without me present would actually be a felony.

Prices vary, but are about $5k for a run-of-the-mill submachine gun, $15k-$25k for rifles, and usually $20k-$30k for belt fed weapons. Not to say that's set in stone, obviously you can find deals, something like a MAC is probably only $3,500. You can find many for sale online, of course.

NightTrainHD · March 5, 2011, 06:54 PM

Here ya go, found on google. third or fourth down looks helpful. Not being smarta**
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=state+laws+on+full+auto+weapons

Spacelord · March 5, 2011, 08:21 PM

lol, thanks. You're right I could have googled it. I have another question though. I have heard more than one person talk about filing down the pin in a semi-auto AK47 so that it fires full auto. How illegal is that? And is it a common practice?

Edit: Found this: "Federal law imposes harsh penalties for machine gun violations, including imprisonment of up to 10 years, a fine of up to $ 250,000, or both for possessing an unregistered machine gun."

So it is quite illegal

Microgunner · March 5, 2011, 08:34 PM

I don't know what "pin" they're speaking of but converting an AK to full auto is a serious felony resulting, IIRC, in a potential 10 year prison term.

Lots of folks learn to "bump fire" their semi-autos which is legal but hitting anything more than 10' away is unlikely.

NightTrainHD · March 5, 2011, 08:35 PM

Not sure on that one but I would be willing to bet to modify a weapon without some sort of permits or license coud get you in a world of trouble. Damn that was a long sentence. I am sure someone will answer your question with fact. I am assuming.

Ichiban · March 6, 2011, 10:22 AM

The Feds really lose their sense of humor when it comes to automatic firearms. If you are already on their radar they will go after you for mechanical failures that cause a firearm got go full auto.
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/53129

A local outdoor range has an annual machine gun shoot every fall where you can go rent time on a variety of machine-guns. It's a ton of fun but it sure can get expensive. A couple of years ago they even had a mini-gun out there. No way I could afford any time on that bad boy but it was fun to watch those that could.

Glenn E. Meyer · March 6, 2011, 10:25 AM

This an NFA question - so prepare to WARP!

chris in va · March 6, 2011, 05:26 PM

Quote:

I am still planning to buy a .22 lever action as my first rifle

Fixed it for you.

David Hineline · March 6, 2011, 11:02 PM

Let us know the area where you live and we can probably guide you to the closest place to go shoot one.

Spacelord · March 7, 2011, 01:49 AM

Alright, I live near Puyallup, WA. Hopefully something viable exists around here...

David Hineline · March 7, 2011, 08:53 AM

WA is one of the less than unrestricted states. http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2008/0...firearm-1.html

There is a bill pending in WA to remove the restrictions of using silencers on firearms.

David Hineline · March 7, 2011, 09:00 AM

Contact one of these Oregon dealers, they are likely in touch with any local shooting going on.

Oregon
Bowers Group LLC

Attn: Tom Bowers, Manager
Specialties: Class 2, Suppressors
PO Box 430
Cornelius, OR 97113
Phone: (503) 992-8697 8-6 Monday through Friday, Saturday 10- 4 PM (Pacific)
http://www.subguns.org
Chaffee Arms - Erik Chaffee
Specialties: Class 2
Damascus, OR
Phone: (503) 658-8525
E-mail: [email protected]
http://www.chaffeearms.com

Tom Denall - T.D. Manufacturing LLC
Specialties: Class 2
P.O.Box 7919
Bend, OR 97708
Phone: (541) 389-6054
E-mail: [email protected]
Homepage: N/A

Revelation Arms - Roger Loock
Specialties: Class 2 and Gunsmith
21210 SW Johnson Street
Aloha, OR 97006
Phone: (503) 642-9066
FAX: (503) 642-1868
E-mail: [email protected]
http://www.revelationarms.com

The Riddle of Steel - TROS - Mark McWillis
Specialties: Class 2, Suppressors & adapters, LE trade-ins and 3 lug barrels
PO Box 680
Clackamas, OR 97015-0680
Phone: (503) 358-3708
E-mail: [email protected]
http://www.trosusa.com

Dick Thoma - D&D Sports
Specialties: Class 3
Lebanon, OR
Phone: (541) 258-6811
FAX: (541) 451-1906
Homepage: N/A

David Hineline · March 7, 2011, 09:03 AM

Next closest option to you would be Idaho. Someone will know. If you want to make a vacation out of it http://www.machinegunshoot.com is the largest in the country.

There is also a large shoot only no trade show in Arizona.

Gemtech

Specialties: Class 2
P.O. Box 3538
Boise, ID 83703
Phone: (208) 939-7222
E-mail: [email protected]
http://www.gem-tech.com

Kent Lomont
278 Sandy Creek Road
Salmon, ID 83467
Phone: (208) 756-6819
FAX: (208) 756-6824
http://www.klomont.com
Tactical Innovations Inc.
Attn: Craig Wheatley
Specialties: Class 2, M11/9 Sten Mag Conversions & .22 Suppressors
HCR 85 Box 8024
Bonner's Ferry, ID 83805
Phone: (208) 267-1585 Pacific
FAX: (208) 267-1597
E-mail: [email protected]
http://www.tacticalinc.com

Skans · March 7, 2011, 09:37 AM

Quote:

lol, thanks. You're right I could have googled it. I have another question though. I have heard more than one person talk about filing down the pin in a semi-auto AK47 so that it fires full auto. How illegal is that? And is it a common practice?

I think others have already pointed out that any modification like this would be illegal. But, regardless of that, whoever is giving you this information is way off on what it would take to make the weapon fire full-auto. There is no pin, or anything else, in a semi-auto AK that can be filed down to make it fire full auto. If someone attempted to simply file down part of the fire-control system, BATFE might be able to get it to "double" (2 rounds/1 trigger pull) before it jams using ammo with light primers, but that's about it - personally, I have doubts as to whether, even with light primers, whether it would double.

The bottom line is whoever is telling you this stuff really has no clue how a semi-auto or full-auto gun works. A full-auto AK works off of a closed-bolt, auto-sear type system, which means that there are about 5+/- parts that are completely different in Full-auto AK's from semi-auto AK's. Plus the receiver is different.

There were some semi-auto guns (not AK's or AR's) made in the late '70's - early '80's that were easy to convert to full-auto by filing down a part. Semi-auto versions of these guns have been illegal to manufacture since 1982 because BATFE felt they were too easy to convert to full-auto. So, when most people talk about how easy it is to convert a semi-auto to a machinegun, they are ignorantly referring to guns that haven't been manufactured in almost 30 years. Most likely the folks who are claiming that this or that firearm can be "converted" haven't ever even seen one of the old, rare types of guns that could be converted this way (still illegal to convert those guns as well).

The reason I am discussing this is because I believe there are a large number of folks new to guns, and then a huge number of anti-gun people who really believe that all you have to do is file down a part on an AK to make it into a machinegun. This is a huge misconception that folks unfamiliar with AK's seem to get stuck on.

Willie Lowman · March 7, 2011, 11:02 AM

Good explanation, Skans.

Idahoser · March 7, 2011, 03:58 PM

be sure to visit Knob Creek Range in Kentucky during the bi-annual (or is it semi-annual? They do it twice a year) Machine Gun Shoot. Bring the kids that are old enough to wear hearing protection too, it's a hoot. Don't miss the Saturday Night Shoot!

There may be something similar out where you are.

http://machinegunshoot.com/machine_gun_shoot.html

jimbob86 · March 7, 2011, 04:22 PM

I can rent a couple of different guns with a fun switch at my local indoor range.......

http://www.thebh.com/photo_gallery.p...np=13&sort=lna

$30.00 plus you have to buy the ammo....... spendy.

Spacelord · March 8, 2011, 04:39 PM

Thanks for the info guys. Like I said I am very new to guns so I am absorbing all of the knowledgeable info I can get my hands on. I very much appreciate the explanation of the semi-auto/auto stuff. Now I know

madmo44mag · March 8, 2011, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Found this: "Federal law imposes harsh penalties for machine gun violations, including imprisonment of up to 10 years, a fine of up to $ 250,000, or both for possessing an unregistered machine gun."

The above is a fact.

20 or so years ago I knew of a guy that was a very good machinist and converted two rifles. I think they were Colt AR’s but I don’t remember now.
He was caught on his deer lease with them.
The judge gave him 20 years and a 500,000 fine plus another 5 years for hunting with them.
His family lost everything they owned over this.
I told him if he ever got caught he would go away for a very long time.
His attitude was “where I shoot no body will ever know”
I guess he never figured how far and how distinct full auto’s sound.

oldkim · March 9, 2011, 01:05 AM

You can go to Wade's in Bellevue. They have it worked out as a business to rent full auto firearms out.

They have several to choose from. Basically you rent the gun and you buy the ammo from them. Project about $50-$75 for the gun and then all the ammo you will be shooting. Remember you'll go through a box in about 8 seconds (2 magazines). So bring a bank roll.

Quote:

Full auto machineguns available by appointment - call for reservations.
Uzi 9mm: $50
M16 9mm: $50
MP5 9mm: $75

http://www.wadesguns.com/range.html

David Hineline · March 9, 2011, 01:10 AM

Only 40 minute drive away, if you are not in Bellevue this next weekend renting then you really should be.

Skans · March 9, 2011, 08:42 AM

That rental UZI for $50 really isn't a bad deal. Ammo is pretty cheap. And, since these things sell for about $7,000 +/-, you would have to shoot the thing over 140 times before you would have been better off just buying one.

I've owned a full-auto AC556 now for about 9 years - shoot it about 2-3 times a year. At best that's 27 times over almost 10 years. At this rate it will take me another 60 years or so to get my money out of it.

frick74 · March 9, 2011, 09:11 PM

I have an M11, with an old can.

The full auto aspect is nice, but, the suppressor is what really makes me smile.

I find it as much fun to able to fire without earmuffs, as I do to rip off a full mag.

Hence, my attraction to going further down the suppressed weapons route.

Its good to see your state possibly allowing the use of them, because you can get in on the fun, for alot less than going full auto.

March 5, 2011, 05:13 PM	#1
Spacelord Member Join Date: January 29, 2011 Posts: 16	Where can you fire fully automatic? Hey all, firearm newbie here. I am still planning to buy a .22 lever action as my first rifle. However I have seen lots of videos on youtube of guys firing full auto rifles like the AK47 and M16. Where can you go to use or even acquire a full auto rifle? I was under the impression that it's illegal for a civilian to own or use one in the US. Thanks guys. Last edited by Spacelord; March 7, 2011 at 01:48 AM.

March 5, 2011, 05:39 PM	#2
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	The legality of full-auto weapons depends on your state law. There are no more full-auto weapons allowed to be added to the "registry" after 1986. As such, they are relatively rare and very, very expensive. To be legal under federal law, you need only pay the ATF a $200 fee and do some paperwork. However, the guns themselves start out roughly in the $5000 area and go WAY up from there. Also, there are places where you can go to shoot them. A Google search will locate some ranges for you. The preceding information is a general run down, an approximation if you will, and not intended to be legal advice. It may not be strictly, absolutely correct or absolutely precise. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

March 5, 2011, 05:49 PM	#3
testuser Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2010 Posts: 495	I fire my full auto in my backyard, just like any other weapon. Regulation of machine guns, suppressors, short barreled rifles, and "any other weapon" fall under the National Firearms Act (NFA) of 1934. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act In the late 60's importation of machineguns was banned and in 1986 new production of transferable civilian machineguns was made illegal. The weapons themselves were never outlawed, but rather grandfathered. So, all we can do is trade the weapons that were in the registry in 1986. Supply is constant and demand goes up. Some states have banned posession of machine guns and NFA Weapons, but in most places they're actually still legal, even in very liberal states. In my state machine guns are registered and can be in two places: at the registered location or in my posession away from the registered location, loaning it to a friend without me present would actually be a felony. Prices vary, but are about $5k for a run-of-the-mill submachine gun, $15k-$25k for rifles, and usually $20k-$30k for belt fed weapons. Not to say that's set in stone, obviously you can find deals, something like a MAC is probably only $3,500. You can find many for sale online, of course. Last edited by testuser; March 5, 2011 at 05:57 PM.

March 5, 2011, 06:54 PM	#4
NightTrainHD Junior Member Join Date: February 24, 2011 Location: Houston,Texas Posts: 12	Here ya go, found on google. third or fourth down looks helpful. Not being smarta** http://lmgtfy.com/?q=state+laws+on+full+auto+weapons Last edited by NightTrainHD; March 5, 2011 at 07:01 PM.

March 5, 2011, 08:21 PM	#5
Spacelord Member Join Date: January 29, 2011 Posts: 16	lol, thanks. You're right I could have googled it. I have another question though. I have heard more than one person talk about filing down the pin in a semi-auto AK47 so that it fires full auto. How illegal is that? And is it a common practice? Edit: Found this: "Federal law imposes harsh penalties for machine gun violations, including imprisonment of up to 10 years, a fine of up to $ 250,000, or both for possessing an unregistered machine gun." So it is quite illegal Last edited by Spacelord; March 5, 2011 at 08:33 PM.

March 5, 2011, 08:34 PM	#6
Microgunner Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2006 Location: Central Florida Posts: 3,324	I don't know what "pin" they're speaking of but converting an AK to full auto is a serious felony resulting, IIRC, in a potential 10 year prison term. Lots of folks learn to "bump fire" their semi-autos which is legal but hitting anything more than 10' away is unlikely. __________________ *Proud NRA Benefactor Member*

March 5, 2011, 08:35 PM	#7
NightTrainHD Junior Member Join Date: February 24, 2011 Location: Houston,Texas Posts: 12	Not sure on that one but I would be willing to bet to modify a weapon without some sort of permits or license coud get you in a world of trouble. Damn that was a long sentence. I am sure someone will answer your question with fact. I am assuming.

March 6, 2011, 10:22 AM	#8
Ichiban Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2009 Posts: 257	The Feds really lose their sense of humor when it comes to automatic firearms. If you are already on their radar they will go after you for mechanical failures that cause a firearm got go full auto. http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/53129 A local outdoor range has an annual machine gun shoot every fall where you can go rent time on a variety of machine-guns. It's a ton of fun but it sure can get expensive. A couple of years ago they even had a mini-gun out there. No way I could afford any time on that bad boy but it was fun to watch those that could.

March 6, 2011, 10:25 AM	#9
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	This an NFA question - so prepare to WARP! __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

March 6, 2011, 11:02 PM	#11
David Hineline Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 1999 Location: South Sioux City, Nebraska Posts: 704	Let us know the area where you live and we can probably guide you to the closest place to go shoot one.

March 7, 2011, 01:49 AM	#12
Spacelord Member Join Date: January 29, 2011 Posts: 16	Alright, I live near Puyallup, WA. Hopefully something viable exists around here...

March 7, 2011, 08:53 AM	#13
David Hineline Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 1999 Location: South Sioux City, Nebraska Posts: 704	WA is one of the less than unrestricted states. http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2008/0...firearm-1.html There is a bill pending in WA to remove the restrictions of using silencers on firearms.

March 7, 2011, 09:00 AM	#14
David Hineline Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 1999 Location: South Sioux City, Nebraska Posts: 704	Contact one of these Oregon dealers, they are likely in touch with any local shooting going on. Oregon Bowers Group LLC Attn: Tom Bowers, Manager Specialties: Class 2, Suppressors PO Box 430 Cornelius, OR 97113 Phone: (503) 992-8697 8-6 Monday through Friday, Saturday 10- 4 PM (Pacific) http://www.subguns.org Chaffee Arms - Erik Chaffee Specialties: Class 2 Damascus, OR Phone: (503) 658-8525 E-mail: [email protected] http://www.chaffeearms.com Tom Denall - T.D. Manufacturing LLC Specialties: Class 2 P.O.Box 7919 Bend, OR 97708 Phone: (541) 389-6054 E-mail: [email protected] Homepage: N/A Revelation Arms - Roger Loock Specialties: Class 2 and Gunsmith 21210 SW Johnson Street Aloha, OR 97006 Phone: (503) 642-9066 FAX: (503) 642-1868 E-mail: [email protected] http://www.revelationarms.com The Riddle of Steel - TROS - Mark McWillis Specialties: Class 2, Suppressors & adapters, LE trade-ins and 3 lug barrels PO Box 680 Clackamas, OR 97015-0680 Phone: (503) 358-3708 E-mail: [email protected] http://www.trosusa.com Dick Thoma - D&D Sports Specialties: Class 3 Lebanon, OR Phone: (541) 258-6811 FAX: (541) 451-1906 Homepage: N/A

March 7, 2011, 09:03 AM	#15
David Hineline Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 1999 Location: South Sioux City, Nebraska Posts: 704	Next closest option to you would be Idaho. Someone will know. If you want to make a vacation out of it http://www.machinegunshoot.com is the largest in the country. There is also a large shoot only no trade show in Arizona. Gemtech Specialties: Class 2 P.O. Box 3538 Boise, ID 83703 Phone: (208) 939-7222 E-mail: [email protected] http://www.gem-tech.com Kent Lomont 278 Sandy Creek Road Salmon, ID 83467 Phone: (208) 756-6819 FAX: (208) 756-6824 http://www.klomont.com Tactical Innovations Inc. Attn: Craig Wheatley Specialties: Class 2, M11/9 Sten Mag Conversions & .22 Suppressors HCR 85 Box 8024 Bonner's Ferry, ID 83805 Phone: (208) 267-1585 Pacific FAX: (208) 267-1597 E-mail: [email protected] http://www.tacticalinc.com

March 7, 2011, 11:02 AM	#17
Willie Lowman Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Uh-Hi-O Posts: 3,006	Good explanation, Skans. __________________ "9mm has a very long history of being a pointy little bullet moving quickly" --Sevens

March 7, 2011, 03:58 PM	#18
Idahoser Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2005 Location: West TN Posts: 244	be sure to visit Knob Creek Range in Kentucky during the bi-annual (or is it semi-annual? They do it twice a year) Machine Gun Shoot. Bring the kids that are old enough to wear hearing protection too, it's a hoot. Don't miss the Saturday Night Shoot! There may be something similar out where you are. http://machinegunshoot.com/machine_gun_shoot.html Last edited by Idahoser; March 7, 2011 at 04:08 PM.

March 7, 2011, 04:22 PM	#19
jimbob86 Junior member Join Date: October 4, 2007 Location: All the way to NEBRASKA Posts: 8,722	I can rent a couple of different guns with a fun switch at my local indoor range....... http://www.thebh.com/photo_gallery.p...np=13&sort=lna $30.00 plus you have to buy the ammo....... spendy.

March 8, 2011, 04:39 PM	#20
Spacelord Member Join Date: January 29, 2011 Posts: 16	Thanks for the info guys. Like I said I am very new to guns so I am absorbing all of the knowledgeable info I can get my hands on. I very much appreciate the explanation of the semi-auto/auto stuff. Now I know

March 9, 2011, 01:10 AM	#23
David Hineline Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 1999 Location: South Sioux City, Nebraska Posts: 704	Only 40 minute drive away, if you are not in Bellevue this next weekend renting then you really should be.

March 9, 2011, 08:42 AM	#24
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	That rental UZI for $50 really isn't a bad deal. Ammo is pretty cheap. And, since these things sell for about $7,000 +/-, you would have to shoot the thing over 140 times before you would have been better off just buying one. I've owned a full-auto AC556 now for about 9 years - shoot it about 2-3 times a year. At best that's 27 times over almost 10 years. At this rate it will take me another 60 years or so to get my money out of it.

March 9, 2011, 09:11 PM	#25
frick74 Member Join Date: March 7, 2011 Posts: 34	I have an M11, with an old can. The full auto aspect is nice, but, the suppressor is what really makes me smile. I find it as much fun to able to fire without earmuffs, as I do to rip off a full mag. Hence, my attraction to going further down the suppressed weapons route. Its good to see your state possibly allowing the use of them, because you can get in on the fun, for alot less than going full auto.