re-case hardening mauser

BoogieMan · January 22, 2015, 08:10 PM

I have a 1916 mauser action that is known to have poor heat treating. Can I take it to my Comercial heat treater and have him run it through his atmospheric furnace and re-case harden it? I would do all of my machining and rough lap the bolt first. But considering the reputatin of the 1916 heat treat quality I am afraid that without doing anything I will get rapid lug wear and end up with to much headspace. Am I worrying to much or should I consider re-case?

Dixie Gunsmithing · January 22, 2015, 08:23 PM

If I were to send any firearm out for case hardening, it would be to someone who understands case hardening guns. Generally, fixtures/braces need to be made to keep the part from warping during the process, and gunsmiths who do case hardening are knowledgeable in this. They also know how to pack the frame with bone charcoal to get the lug abutments hardened, plus keeping them from twisting and warping with the rest of the receiver. Even at this, it is still possible to get a small amount.

mete · January 22, 2015, 08:38 PM

I did that with my M98 almost 50 years ago ! That's when I was in gunsmithing school. As a metallurgist I was very interested in how they would do it Their proceedure was acceptable for me and it surved me for many years as my venison gun. I know it was on the west coast , a highly regarded HTer .Sorry but I can't remember their name or the exact proceedure . CST may be able to tell you who they used ,if they're still there.
Dixie is right , that kind of work should only be done by someone who is very knowledgable and experienced at that kind of thing.

BoogieMan · January 22, 2015, 08:38 PM

It's my understanding that Adding charcoal to the process is not required with modern Comercial heat treating using proper equipment. Warping is always a concern.
I have to pull the barrel to see the lug condition. But judging by the bolt lugs this project might be dead. They have what apears to be galling on the faces. I will post some pics once I get the barrel off

mete · January 22, 2015, 08:40 PM

That can be done with gas raher than pack also.
You may have to machine both receiver and bolt lugs which is done before HT !!

Dixie Gunsmithing · January 22, 2015, 08:49 PM

Unless it is a large gunsmithing firm, I doubt they will have anything but charcoal hardening. It is quite expensive in itself, for the initial setup. The cost of a good oven will make one cringe. The other types, though, are generally only affordable for manufacturers, or heat treat houses.

Scorch · January 22, 2015, 10:47 PM

Commercial heat treaters use heavy jigs to keep the action from warping while in the furnace. There was a heat treater in the SLC area who would re-heat treat Mausers. Call around and ask, or call one of the gunsmithing schools for a suggestion. And yes, do all of your machining and polishing before heat treating.

BoogieMan · January 23, 2015, 07:36 AM

I will do all of my machining prior to any heat treating. I use a guy in town (American Heat Treating) for the past 20 years. He has been heat treating longer than I have been alive and has extensive metallurgy knowledge as it pertains to heat treating. He has an atmospheric vacuum furnace (among many others) and is able to purge then introduce the needed gasses.
On a side note: I am sure this is WAY beyond the value of a 1916 Spanish. But, as long as I dont have lug setback I am going to give it a shot. For the challenge more than anything. It may actually be easier to manufacture from scratch.

Gunplummer · January 23, 2015, 11:10 AM

I would get with the guy and see what he wants in the way of anti-warpage equipment. I used to re-heat treat Arisaka receivers and really did not have to brace up that much to stop warpage. They are totally different material and require no addition of carbon. The big problem I had was scale in finished areas, but there is enough thickness variation to affect warping too. The only problem I see for you would be if the material was unknown. Most Mausers were in the 1018-1020 range, but I have heard some were of a hybrid tool steel, depending on country (Chech?) of origin. Just about any commercial heat treating shop now has to be better than a shop operating in 1916. At the very least, the heat settings are probably controlled better.

James K · January 23, 2015, 04:37 PM

I have run that general idea past metallurgists and the consensus seemed to be that to do heat treatment or hardening by heat treatment (as opposed to case hardening) it is necessary to know the the composition of the original steel, something that may not be available to older rifles. Also, I was warned that trying to heat treat an unknown steel could result in doing more harm than good and that the receiver could become dangerous.

I am sure that the folks who do a lot of heat treatment know the pros and cons, but I sometimes wonder about the guys who get out the acetylene torch and a bucket of water.

Jim

BoogieMan · January 23, 2015, 05:05 PM

Quote:

I sometimes wonder about the guys who get out the acetylene torch and a bucket of water

I have done that on things like a short run punch head or when in a pinch with things like O-1. As for a part that is to be sold or in this case a part that I plan to pack with explosive and rest my face on I think its best left to well experienced heat treater that I trust. I will let you guys know how it works out I have to get all my parts together and do the machining before I take this to be case hardening.
Here is a link to the process he has used in the past for our parts. Not the plant I use but same basic process.
http://www.ipsenusa.com/processes-an...ical-diffusion

HiBC · January 23, 2015, 05:37 PM

I'm not an expert on anything about the steel/heat treat of Mausers.I could have it all wrong.
My understanding:I do not expect a Mauser to to be hardened throughout the receiver.Most of the surfaces accessable to a hardness tester would not be hard.I would expect the body of a Mauser to be in the mid to upper 20's Rockwell "C".As is a typical 1911 slide /frame.
What they did was pack harden localized areas that required hardness.Locking lug areas,extractor cam area,etc.These small areas have a higher surface hardness

My questionable thought process:These old rifles were proof tested,and are now quite "experienced".They have fired thousands of rounds over the last 90 plus years,and pressure levels/bolt thrust are at least comparable.

So.IMO,unless some evidence of the bolt lugs setting back into the lug recess surfaces is evident...I'm not sure why it would suddenly begin now.

A question might be "How can I get an idea if the locking lug recesses are hard?"

Maybe this would help.The mold business uses core and ejector pins.There is a business "DME" that markets mold components.

A medium hardness core pin id Rc 30-35 through hard H-13.A High hardness pin is (IIRC) about 53-58? Something like that.Then ejector pins are nitride to a very high surface hardness,but the core hardness is 40-45.So,grind off about .050 of the end,and the interior tip will be Rc40-45.

These are probably less than $10 each

So maybe something like a 3/16 diacenter punch could be hand ground,and tested against the actual locking lug recess surface.If the Rc 30-35 pin won't leave a dink,its not dead soft steel.Rc 40-45 is pretty good receiver hardness.If its about even,blunt punch and small dimple,I'd call it good.If a high hardness pin bounches off...its woodpecker lips hard!!I don't think this hardness is necessary,but it would say something.

My point,just because a smith might notice drilling and tapping for scope bases is easier on a Mauser than a 1903 ,it does not mean theMauser has soft locking lug recesses.

One outfit that knows firearms heat treatment is Turnbull,but it may be high $

Dixie Gunsmithing · January 23, 2015, 09:31 PM

Not all steel is hardenable, (low-carbon steel), so, no matter how hot you get it, then quench it, it will remain soft. The only way to toughen it is to case harden it, by introducing the carbon the steel is lacking to its exterior.

Those who take an acetylene torch to receivers, to give it a blue coloration, (faking case hardening), risk destroying the mechanical properties by setting up stresses internally in the steel or iron. This, also, if the receiver is old and made of low carbon material. All steel, that I know of, is affected by the HAZ, or heat affected zone, by inducing uneven stress. That is my opinion on it, but a metallurgist may know different.

mete · January 24, 2015, 12:02 AM

Mausers for many years were made rom low carbon steel like a 1020. They had to be carburized to get the needed surface hardness for somewhere near 40 HRc. Mine was a 1943 Obendorf with spotty surface hardness .I had it carburized and hardened . So the metallurgy is fairly simple .Prep work ? check and lap the receiver and bolt lugs .Square up things and anything else you need . Send out for HT.

brewman · January 30, 2015, 12:42 AM

BoogieMan's mate is on the money, vaccum heat treating is the best way to go.

I was a Toolmaker for near 20 years, we used this process alot for more intricate jobs where salt bath case hardeneing would have caused issues.
It gives the least distortion of any heat treatment I have seen.

Gunplummer · January 31, 2015, 07:33 AM

I did the same type of work and agree. It IS a fact that most Mausers were low carbon steel. It (The steel) was reliably tested and came out around 1018-1020. There was supposed to be one of some type of tool steel and the Chech model comes to mind, but may have been another country that was a suburb of Germany at the time. I don't know about spot hardening on them. Sounds wrong to me. Other than strengthening the low carbon material, it was also done for wear resistance over the whole receiver. The basic depth is about .015-.020 for case hardening low carbon steel, but I guess you could go a little deeper. This is real info, not gun club conversation. You can grind .020 off a Mauser and heat it anyway you want and throw it in any kind of oil or water and it will never get hard. You need some form of carbon steel to do it that way. I have made a hell of a lot of bolts, firing pins, claw extractors, and what not with an oven and a bucket of quenching oil. I cased a lot of small parts with a torch, Kasenite, and bucket of water. Years back I did some color casing before the big resurgence of "Charcoal hardening" and guess what? You throw it in a bucket of cold water. Take the receiver to a heat treater and just tell him it is 1020.

gunnut69 · January 31, 2015, 11:58 PM

I would agree with gunplummer..

Urban_Redneck · February 1, 2015, 08:30 AM

Two companies that are well thought of for annealing/hardening of rifle actions.

Blanchard Metal Processing Company
1115 South Pioneer Rd.
Salt Lake City, UT 84104
(801)972-5590
http://www.bmproc.com/index.html

Pacific Metallurgical Inc.
925 5th Ave South
Kent, WA 98032
(253) 854-4241
http://www.pacmet.com/contact.htm

January 22, 2015, 08:10 PM	#1
BoogieMan Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2012 Location: South Jersey Posts: 2,217	re-case hardening mauser I have a 1916 mauser action that is known to have poor heat treating. Can I take it to my Comercial heat treater and have him run it through his atmospheric furnace and re-case harden it? I would do all of my machining and rough lap the bolt first. But considering the reputatin of the 1916 heat treat quality I am afraid that without doing anything I will get rapid lug wear and end up with to much headspace. Am I worrying to much or should I consider re-case? __________________ Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it. Milton Freidman "If you find yourself in a fair fight,,, Your tactics suck"- Unknown

January 22, 2015, 08:38 PM	#3
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	I did that with my M98 almost 50 years ago ! That's when I was in gunsmithing school. As a metallurgist I was very interested in how they would do it Their proceedure was acceptable for me and it surved me for many years as my venison gun. I know it was on the west coast , a highly regarded HTer .Sorry but I can't remember their name or the exact proceedure . CST may be able to tell you who they used ,if they're still there. Dixie is right , that kind of work should only be done by someone who is very knowledgable and experienced at that kind of thing. __________________ And Watson , bring your revolver !

January 22, 2015, 08:38 PM	#4
BoogieMan Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2012 Location: South Jersey Posts: 2,217	It's my understanding that Adding charcoal to the process is not required with modern Comercial heat treating using proper equipment. Warping is always a concern. I have to pull the barrel to see the lug condition. But judging by the bolt lugs this project might be dead. They have what apears to be galling on the faces. I will post some pics once I get the barrel off __________________ Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it. Milton Freidman "If you find yourself in a fair fight,,, Your tactics suck"- Unknown

January 22, 2015, 08:40 PM	#5
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	That can be done with gas raher than pack also. You may have to machine both receiver and bolt lugs which is done before HT !! __________________ And Watson , bring your revolver !

January 22, 2015, 10:47 PM	#7
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	Commercial heat treaters use heavy jigs to keep the action from warping while in the furnace. There was a heat treater in the SLC area who would re-heat treat Mausers. Call around and ask, or call one of the gunsmithing schools for a suggestion. And yes, do all of your machining and polishing before heat treating. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

January 22, 2015, 08:23 PM	#2
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	If I were to send any firearm out for case hardening, it would be to someone who understands case hardening guns. Generally, fixtures/braces need to be made to keep the part from warping during the process, and gunsmiths who do case hardening are knowledgeable in this. They also know how to pack the frame with bone charcoal to get the lug abutments hardened, plus keeping them from twisting and warping with the rest of the receiver. Even at this, it is still possible to get a small amount.

January 22, 2015, 08:49 PM	#6
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	Unless it is a large gunsmithing firm, I doubt they will have anything but charcoal hardening. It is quite expensive in itself, for the initial setup. The cost of a good oven will make one cringe. The other types, though, are generally only affordable for manufacturers, or heat treat houses.

January 23, 2015, 07:36 AM	#8
BoogieMan Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2012 Location: South Jersey Posts: 2,217	I will do all of my machining prior to any heat treating. I use a guy in town (American Heat Treating) for the past 20 years. He has been heat treating longer than I have been alive and has extensive metallurgy knowledge as it pertains to heat treating. He has an atmospheric vacuum furnace (among many others) and is able to purge then introduce the needed gasses. On a side note: I am sure this is WAY beyond the value of a 1916 Spanish. But, as long as I dont have lug setback I am going to give it a shot. For the challenge more than anything. It may actually be easier to manufacture from scratch. __________________ Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it. Milton Freidman "If you find yourself in a fair fight,,, Your tactics suck"- Unknown

January 23, 2015, 11:10 AM	#9
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	I would get with the guy and see what he wants in the way of anti-warpage equipment. I used to re-heat treat Arisaka receivers and really did not have to brace up that much to stop warpage. They are totally different material and require no addition of carbon. The big problem I had was scale in finished areas, but there is enough thickness variation to affect warping too. The only problem I see for you would be if the material was unknown. Most Mausers were in the 1018-1020 range, but I have heard some were of a hybrid tool steel, depending on country (Chech?) of origin. Just about any commercial heat treating shop now has to be better than a shop operating in 1916. At the very least, the heat settings are probably controlled better.

January 23, 2015, 04:37 PM	#10
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I have run that general idea past metallurgists and the consensus seemed to be that to do heat treatment or hardening by heat treatment (as opposed to case hardening) it is necessary to know the the composition of the original steel, something that may not be available to older rifles. Also, I was warned that trying to heat treat an unknown steel could result in doing more harm than good and that the receiver could become dangerous. I am sure that the folks who do a lot of heat treatment know the pros and cons, but I sometimes wonder about the guys who get out the acetylene torch and a bucket of water. Jim

January 23, 2015, 05:37 PM	#12
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	I'm not an expert on anything about the steel/heat treat of Mausers.I could have it all wrong. My understanding:I do not expect a Mauser to to be hardened throughout the receiver.Most of the surfaces accessable to a hardness tester would not be hard.I would expect the body of a Mauser to be in the mid to upper 20's Rockwell "C".As is a typical 1911 slide /frame. What they did was pack harden localized areas that required hardness.Locking lug areas,extractor cam area,etc.These small areas have a higher surface hardness My questionable thought process:These old rifles were proof tested,and are now quite "experienced".They have fired thousands of rounds over the last 90 plus years,and pressure levels/bolt thrust are at least comparable. So.IMO,unless some evidence of the bolt lugs setting back into the lug recess surfaces is evident...I'm not sure why it would suddenly begin now. A question might be "How can I get an idea if the locking lug recesses are hard?" Maybe this would help.The mold business uses core and ejector pins.There is a business "DME" that markets mold components. A medium hardness core pin id Rc 30-35 through hard H-13.A High hardness pin is (IIRC) about 53-58? Something like that.Then ejector pins are nitride to a very high surface hardness,but the core hardness is 40-45.So,grind off about .050 of the end,and the interior tip will be Rc40-45. These are probably less than $10 each So maybe something like a 3/16 diacenter punch could be hand ground,and tested against the actual locking lug recess surface.If the Rc 30-35 pin won't leave a dink,its not dead soft steel.Rc 40-45 is pretty good receiver hardness.If its about even,blunt punch and small dimple,I'd call it good.If a high hardness pin bounches off...its woodpecker lips hard!!I don't think this hardness is necessary,but it would say something. My point,just because a smith might notice drilling and tapping for scope bases is easier on a Mauser than a 1903 ,it does not mean theMauser has soft locking lug recesses. One outfit that knows firearms heat treatment is Turnbull,but it may be high $

January 23, 2015, 09:31 PM	#13
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	Not all steel is hardenable, (low-carbon steel), so, no matter how hot you get it, then quench it, it will remain soft. The only way to toughen it is to case harden it, by introducing the carbon the steel is lacking to its exterior. Those who take an acetylene torch to receivers, to give it a blue coloration, (faking case hardening), risk destroying the mechanical properties by setting up stresses internally in the steel or iron. This, also, if the receiver is old and made of low carbon material. All steel, that I know of, is affected by the HAZ, or heat affected zone, by inducing uneven stress. That is my opinion on it, but a metallurgist may know different.

January 24, 2015, 12:02 AM	#14
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	Mausers for many years were made rom low carbon steel like a 1020. They had to be carburized to get the needed surface hardness for somewhere near 40 HRc. Mine was a 1943 Obendorf with spotty surface hardness .I had it carburized and hardened . So the metallurgy is fairly simple .Prep work ? check and lap the receiver and bolt lugs .Square up things and anything else you need . Send out for HT. __________________ And Watson , bring your revolver !

January 30, 2015, 12:42 AM	#15
brewman Member Join Date: November 19, 2008 Location: South Australia Posts: 54	BoogieMan's mate is on the money, vaccum heat treating is the best way to go. I was a Toolmaker for near 20 years, we used this process alot for more intricate jobs where salt bath case hardeneing would have caused issues. It gives the least distortion of any heat treatment I have seen.

January 31, 2015, 07:33 AM	#16
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	I did the same type of work and agree. It IS a fact that most Mausers were low carbon steel. It (The steel) was reliably tested and came out around 1018-1020. There was supposed to be one of some type of tool steel and the Chech model comes to mind, but may have been another country that was a suburb of Germany at the time. I don't know about spot hardening on them. Sounds wrong to me. Other than strengthening the low carbon material, it was also done for wear resistance over the whole receiver. The basic depth is about .015-.020 for case hardening low carbon steel, but I guess you could go a little deeper. This is real info, not gun club conversation. You can grind .020 off a Mauser and heat it anyway you want and throw it in any kind of oil or water and it will never get hard. You need some form of carbon steel to do it that way. I have made a hell of a lot of bolts, firing pins, claw extractors, and what not with an oven and a bucket of quenching oil. I cased a lot of small parts with a torch, Kasenite, and bucket of water. Years back I did some color casing before the big resurgence of "Charcoal hardening" and guess what? You throw it in a bucket of cold water. Take the receiver to a heat treater and just tell him it is 1020. Last edited by Gunplummer; January 31, 2015 at 07:48 AM.

January 31, 2015, 11:58 PM	#17
gunnut69 Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Posts: 40	I would agree with gunplummer..

February 1, 2015, 08:30 AM	#18
Urban_Redneck Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Posts: 73	Two companies that are well thought of for annealing/hardening of rifle actions. Blanchard Metal Processing Company 1115 South Pioneer Rd. Salt Lake City, UT 84104 (801)972-5590 http://www.bmproc.com/index.html Pacific Metallurgical Inc. 925 5th Ave South Kent, WA 98032 (253) 854-4241 http://www.pacmet.com/contact.htm