An almost "dangerous" lesson, learned....

[tobnpr]

While it's embarrassing to admit a breach of safety protocol, I figure it's better to eat some crow, and remind everyone to follow the "basic" safety rules...I failed to do so yesterday, and got lucky...

My sons and I make the trek (about 3-1/2 hours RT) to shoot long range around once a month.
Yesterday, I was going shot for shot against my older son with his 6.5 Grendel AR, against two of my bolt actions at the 10" gong at 565 yards.

The bolt guns I was using were a 7mm-.08 Savage, and (believe it or not) a 7.62 x 54R, Mosin 91/30 action that I've extensively modified, and it shoots...

Both rifles were on my bench, and I decided to let the Savage cool down a bit...and placed it on the outside of the concrete shooting bench and pulled the Mosin in to my shoulder. Grabbed a round out of the box, and single-loaded it (I always single-load at the bench).

Put the crosshairs on the gong and squeezed the Timney. My younger son, who was spotting for us, said "hit"...

I racked the bolt, it slid easily to the rear, but the cartridge did not eject...
So I reach into the action and pull out the cartridge.

It was a 7mm.-08...

Just eyeballing the cases side by side, they're very close...and even though the 54R headspaces off the rim, from the inside of the rim to the datum on the 7-08 looked pretty darn similar.

Obviously, they were close enough that even though the 7-08 headspaced off it's neck in the 52R chamber, it chambered easily and the overall length was close enough for the FP to engage the primer correctly- no piercing...

Anyway...

Point of the post, was just to pass along a stupid mistake made.
At the reloading bench, I always put EVERYTHING aside, that I'm not using. Powders, bullets, cases. I load for the .308 also- ever try to tell a 174 grain, .311 MK from a 175 grain, .308 MK?

Lesson re-learned.... I had failed to close the box of 7-08 ammunition and set it aside with the rifle. I half-blindly just reached to the side and grabbed a round, barely taking my eyes off the scope.

From now on, the rifle- and the ammunition- I'm not shooting will be removed from the bench...

It's actually on video we were shooting at the time...
As far as how a .284 bullet flying down a .312 bore could hit the target, I can't explain...perhaps someone else shot at the exact time I did, but the flight time from trigger pull to the gong moving was dead on.

Maybe someone was looking out for me, on both counts

[moxie]

Don't feel bad. I've loaded and fired .44 Spl. in a .45 Colt, Ruger Blackhawk. Fired 2 rounds and was pretty accurate, but something didn't seem right. Pulled the brass out and it was split in a raggedy way. I knew right away. Live and learn.

[tobnpr]

"Feel right"...
You're correct, I forgot to mention that I immediately noticed the lack of the solid "thump" the Mosin gives my shoulder...definitely didn't feel "right".

[SL1]

Believe it or not, I have found several .40 S&W cases that were obviously fired in a .45 ACP chamber. And a friend once fired a 9mm in a 357 Sig chamber. Apparently, the extractors hold these cartridges well enough for the firing pin to do its job. In all of these examples, the cases were badly split. In the 9mm/357Sig example, I know that a bullet did NOT stick in the bore, but you have to wonder how they make it through.

SL1

[SamNavy]

I'm thinking everybody has this same story.
Mine is with 4 buddies, 2 on the bench, one shoting 25-06, the other... .308.

My more inexperienced buddy runs out of 25-06 and just grabs what's on the table. He chambers and fires a Remington Core-Lokt .308 through his Remington 700 25-06, and gets 2 stitches above his right eye for good measure.

We can't get the bolt open, so we call Remington and they say "Happens all the time, send it in."

When the gun returns, we have documentation from Remington saying, "The gun is fine, be more careful." They did some fancy "smith'ing stuff", cleaned it, and put it back together for us. That gun is still a tack-driver out to about 400yds where the 30yr old Redfield scope on it runs out of glass.

We've got some new rules on the range now and noobs that we bring out are never left unsupervised to the extent we left my buddy.

[dacaur]

I havent done it yet, but my brother did....

Same old story, shooting two guns, in this case an AR-15 and an AK-47, loading side by side, shooting same brand steel case ammo.... My brother suddenly stops loading and goes oops, pulls out several 5.56 cartridges from the AK mag.... hindsight being 20-20, he should have completly unloaded the mag, but he just went till he hit the first 7.62 and called it good and topped it off.... Then fired the AK *bang*bang*bang*bang*... *click*..... it actualy fired, but obviously the rim was too small to extract....

7.62x39 on the left, .223 fired in the 7.62mm AK in center, .223 on the right

[Clifford L. Hughes]

Tobnpr:

In my learing days I pulled some 7.62 match bullets and salvaged the powder to use in the 7.62 cases that I formed into .243 Win. I didn't ream the newly formed cases and I loaded them with the salvaged powder ( no no). I was shoot in direct sun in degree heat: no shade. The first three rounds fired fine. The ourth round chambered hard and when I thouched it off, I felt hot gasses on my face. The expanding gasses melted the case and froze the bolt. The shot action small ring 98 held togeather. The only dammage to me was a superfical cuts on my fingers from a splintered stock. The late P.O. Ackley Un froze the bolt and replaced it. I'm still shooting fourty-six years later.

[ATPBULLETS]

Dacaur.....that is what i call "Fire DE-formed brass"....and lucky to tell about it....
Lucky.....thanks for sharing,...

[Slamfire]

How about posting the pictures of the fired case?.

You are very lucky that the case head did not blow. If it had there would have been splinters and brass particles flying around.

Always wear your shooting glasses!

[drail]

I have always believed that having only one box of ammo on the bench at a time is a good habit to get into. I have seen several individuals make this mistake on ranges and it can a dangerous situation. As soon as you change firearms put the ammo for that gun away in your bag or box or pack. What usually happens is that someone else will ask to shoot one of your guns and will load the wrong ammo into a gun because there are multiple boxes sitting in the open. .40 cal. ammo in a .45 ACP is VERY common.

[GWS]

Another case of "fire-deformed" brass!
Would like to be able to explain this exactly, but I can't. I found this "fire-formed" brass while picking up range brass. Head stamp says 40 S&W while the fired-formed diameter is the same as post-fired .45 brass! It was so interesting that I've kept it.....for show and tell I guess.....but I don't think I want to test one to see if I can repeat the experiment (if that's what it was).

My question is how it was chambered in a .45??? Would think it would fall out!
Hmmm, I'll have to drop a .40 round into my kimber barrel (removed from the gun of course) to check that out. The next question....if it does fall out then pulling the trigger would most likely just move the round forward rather than detonating.....wouldn't it? Sorry, will not test that hypothesis.

Interesting anyway.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by GWS

My question is how it was chambered in a .45??? Would think it would fall out!
Hmmm, I'll have to drop a .40 round into my kimber barrel (removed from the gun of course) to check that out. The next question....if it does fall out then pulling the trigger would most likely just move the round forward rather than detonating.....wouldn't it? Sorry, will not test that hypothesis.

There is an excellent chance that the round would be held in place by the extractor. In the case of 40 in a 45, pressure would not be very high at all since the bullet doesn't come close to filling the bore. As you can see, barely enough to substantially deform the brass.

[SL1]

That pressure probably depends on the powder and bullet in the .40 S&W. The one that I have is split lengthwise in 2 places, and scortched on the outside. I don't think it sealed the chamber.

SL1

[GWS]

Dbl. tap, sorry.

[GWS]

As you can see, barely enough to substantially deform the brass.

Sorry for the misconception....I should have showed both sides. Barely isn't quite the word.
Here's the other side....


Probably right about the extractor...

Brian & SL1, I didn't clean the round at all....not a lot of scorching in this one. Of course I have no idea what gun it was shot in. Obviously you are right about pressure leaking around the smaller non-sealing bullet....but there was plenty to make the case instantly fit the chamber with a splitting slam.

[ltc444]

just like reloading. One caliber and one gun on the bench at a time.

[wrm]

Well, I've seen people shoot the smaller round in the bigger chamber -- 223 in an AK, 243 in a 308 (seen this happen twice) -- and it didn't seem too dangerous. The other way 'round is of course a recipe for disaster.

More interestingly, didya know you can substitute 303 British in your Mosin if you run out of 7.62 x 54R? :-)

I didn't either but it's fascinating.

http://iaaforum.org/forum3/viewtopic...77b7ada0bbd675

(Spoiler -- you do need to resize the 303 case necks first)

[GWS]

One caliber and one gun on the bench at a time.

What's the fun of that! You're probably right, but you'd think a shooter would notice a round that doesn't fit his magazine. I'm tempted to say, "you can't fix 'stupid,' but we are all guilty of 'stupid' more often than most of us will admit. Thankfully I haven't done this version of 'stupid' yet...but now I know it's possible, don't I. Other versions of 'stupid'....yes...but I'm not elaborating. As I trudge on past 60, I'm afraid 'stupid' happens more often. I have to slow down to give my brain time to catch up! I always thought it was the other way around.

[willr]

I remember from WWII days when someone got hold of 8 mm German rounds. They look almost exactly like 30-06 and will chamber in a Springfield. Disastrous results.

willr

[Ozzieman]

Welcome to the stupid club,,, which I am a senior member.
Ever heard of the 30-No neck?

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...&highlight=308

[GWS]

No I never....but that was entertaining to say the least...really cool-looking, in fact!

Hate to break it to you, but if I had seen your thread before today, I would have welcomed YOU to the stupid club.

When I first got my Pro 2000, I demoed it to my friend. A super quick 30 rounds of .45. When done he picked up the last one...and powder started leaking out the bottom. APS strips have 25 primers...."Ahhhhh", he said, "that's what the second primer strip was for!"

I wish I could take responsibilty for the cool .40 to .45, but I can't....and I'm still not going to try the experiment it in my only .45, a sweet shooting Kimber....now THAT would be stupid!

[charliechevy]

Way to suck up pride to make a solid and valid point for other shooters. I'd rather share my misfortune or lack of attention to detail and educate someone than have others get hurt when a simple warning, regardless of where it came from, could have prevented it.

[Slamfire]

A gentleman in the gun club told me of his experience firing a 270 Win cartridge in a 300 Win Mag!

His rifle was a M70, knowing him, probably a pre 64, but it could have been a M70 controlled round feed, the later M70 version with a claw extractor. The rifle had the claw extractor as I remember.

The round fired and the case head blew.

He said the scope prevented him from losing his right eye, he had his left eye closed, which saved it. The whole left side of his face was bloody from the debris and brass particles that came out of the action. His left eyelid was pocked too but nothing got into the eye.

The scope was bent and ruined.

After the accident he said the action headspace was OK, McMillian fiberglass stock fine and the floorplate was not blown, which is something I would have expected to happen.

Bud said he had been firing a 270 before he shot the 300 Win Mag, must have been a 270 round rolling around on the bench, he picked it up and it chambered in the 300 Win Mag.

[Ozzieman]

In the case of the 30-no neck, the mistake was in not taking the time to check my equipment.
When I go to a range to shoot I normally take 4 or more long guns and the guns not being fired and ammo not being used, set on the benches behind the firing line and the ones I am firing go to the bench I am firing off of.
My stupidity that day was caused by setting up a friend with a 22 LR rifle on the next position. Once he got shooting which I watched for a good 10 minutes I sat down and while watching him making sure he was not having any problems I loaded up the one shown in the thread.
None of us are really stupid that do these kinds of mistakes but what this one did was to reminded myself that no matter how long or how many I have put down range and it’s a lot! We really need to keep our heads out.
In my case every time I have done a dumb thing related to firearms, and I am happy to say it’s been few and the 30 no neck is the only time a gun was fired. Each time it happened was because I was in a hurry or distracted.
I really like these kinds of threads and the way every one shares their “mistakes”. It’s a good wakeup call and reminds us that we are not throwing paint balls down range and mistakes can hurt someone.
I know, had an AR15 blowup on the next position down from me. T handle broke my nose and glasses. He loaded pistol powder in a .223.

[Slamfire]

I know, had an AR15 blowup on the next position down from me. T handle broke my nose and glasses. He loaded pistol powder in a .223.

EEK!

There are a lot of people using Blue Dot in rifle cartridges and the powder is not appropriate for rifle applications. Alliant told me the pressure rises very fast with little differences in components. And occasionally one hears of Blue Dot blowing up rifles.

Was this one of those?