Horrible carjacking rape/double-murder.

[Samurai]

Hey, all.

I'm pretty shaken up, today. I pride myself on living in the sleepy-little town of Knoxville, Tennessee. It's a quiet little football-town, that just happens to have a State University close by. (Go Vols!)

This weekend, a couple, age 23 and 21, was carjacked in the wee-hours of Sunday morning, while heading to a friend's apartment. He was shot, body burned on the side of a railroad track. She was taken to a house in the run-down part of town, tortured and raped for two days, and finally murdered.

It looks like they've caught the guys who did it. Read about it here:

http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/local_ne...275295,00.html

At hearing about this in the news, I've essentially lived the last few days in what can only be described as a blind rage. I cannot believe that monsters like this live in my quiet little city. Near my home, where I am supposed to marry my wife and raise my family!

The questions I want to tackle in this thread are as follows:
1. Name every technique you know of for carjacking someone.
2. How do you defend against it?

The gauntlet is thrown.

[badbob]

Samurai, you forgot to put a link to the article so I found one that tells the story. Sorry to hear about the carjacking. I've been to Knoxville many times and never felt threatened (also a Vols fan). It goes to show that bad things can happen anywhere. Link:http://www.wate.com/Global/story.asp...39&nav=menu7_2

badbob

[Prophet]

I would say be very vigilant ALWAYS if you aren’t already. Get some good heavy tint on your windows kind of like what’s on some home windows that don’t allow them to break or shatter very easy. Also if you vehicle is equipped with the automatic locks when you put it in drive that’s good if not just make sure to lock your doors when driving don’t ever know when someone might run up to your car at a red light. Keep your carry piece close and ready to go if you do carry a shoulder holster works good while driving because the gun is always level with you and you just cross draw and you have it out instead of maybe if you carry in the 4-5 O’clock position the gun might be under you and if you have a seatbelt on it will be hard to get out. Anyways stay safe

[Samurai]

Fixed the link. Darned html code...

[Doug.38PR]

Sorry to hear that Samuri. My aunt and uncle live just outside Knoxville in Clinton, Tennessee. Glad they caught them. People in Tennessee are such laid back friendly people, like most other Southerners. Hate it hearing about things like this happening such sleepy communities.

[buzz_knox]

Knoxville isn't the nice little town it used to be, or that we wish it was. I'm just glad this one may be on the way to being solved, as opposed to the Johnia Berry murder (which happened at my old apartment complex).

This hits very close to home, as I may very well have gone to church with the young lady. And the young gentlemen is being buried in my hometown of Claxton. To top it off, you can basically see the crime scene from my office.

[Samurai]

Words don't fail me. I've got plenty of words. I just can't say them in polite company. Since this has happened, I've had all kinds of unfriendly stuff floating around in my head.

I train people to meditate, relax, to clear their minds in the midst of fighting, combat, stressful situations. Heck, it's practically what got me through law school. But, I just can't get this one out of my head. It's constant, and it's crippling. How could this be allowed? Here?!?

Thanks, Prophet. Any other thoughts on the questions at hand?

[SpiritWalker]

It can happen anywhere, at any time but I am saddened and outraged whenever it does. "Be prepared" is always good advice but asking yourself “how prepared” do you want to be is better. The way the world seems to be going I’d start checking into as much training as you can get.

SCARS

[xjmox14x]

Yes, always leave your car doors locked while driving for safety issues. Not only for this particular issue, but also, it is a lot safer in that no one inside the car can open the door accidentally. It's just a great habit to get into.

If you do find yourself in the position of someone approaching the car, never roll down the window, just drive. Think about it, why would someone approach a vehicle? Probably not asking for directions because he won't be in a vehicle himself. However, if he was just looking for directions, let the next person worry about it. Don't put yourself in that situation.

If you find yourself where the man is next to the car with a gun drawn, usually I would say to comply with everything he says. However, don't ever forget this. He is holding a weapon that shoots 100-200gr. bullets, but your car is a 3000 lb. weapon. Duck your head and step on the gas. Don't stop for any reason. If he's in front of the car with a gun, show him just how hard 3000 lb. can hit.

Other than this, there's not a whole lot you can do. Carjackings happen in split seconds. Having your doors locked constantly and your windows up with give you a little more time to react accordingly.

[Nortonics]

Davidson, his brother Letalvis Cobbins, 24, George Thomas, 23, and Boyd all have been arrested in connection with the slayings.

Gee, such a family of high moral standards. Sounds to me like mommy and daddy could use a good flogging from the survivor relatives for the fine job of bringing up such scum - and don't gimme' no crap about "how could they have prevented it?" :barf:

[Capt. Charlie]

Funny thing is, while dealing with a carjacking is an absolute nightmare, preventing them is relatively easy.

As some here said, keeping your doors locked and windows up is paramount. Remember to keep your vehicle's heater/AC in good shape so that you won't be tempted to open those windows.

Keep your rear view mirrors adjusted so that you can see someone's approach back along both sides of your vehicle.

And most importantly, when in stop & go traffic, never pull right up on the bumper of the car in front of you. Always try to leave a car length or two in front of you so that you have an escape route. Stopped at a red light when someone approaches? Run it if you can do so safely.

When you see someone suspicious approaching your vehicle, undo your seatbelt for maneuverability, and if you have a weapon, don't brandish it unless you have to, but have it ready to deploy in a heartbeat.

It's best to keep in mind that carjackings end in injury or death to the victims much more often than during robberies, so don't act until you have to, but when you do, act decisively.

[HangFire83]

Sorry to hear about the horrible situation in your town.

I think capt charlie summed it up pretty well. In regards to the stop and go traffic and leaving space between you and the vehicle in front of you; I am reminded of my drivers ed classes and learning the rule of stopping short enough to be able to clearly see the bottom of the tires on the car ahead of you. The logic being if the car in front of you stalled you could get around it but it also applies here.

[Baba Louie]

Horrible and sad.
Hmmm
Maybe the state will be able to keep them locked up for a good while now... like forever.

The questions I want to tackle in this thread are as follows:
1. Name every technique you know of for carjacking someone.
2. How do you defend against it?

This from an old THR thread (happened to me back in 2004) kinda long too...
Interestingly enough, I had my first weird encounter with an attempted Carjack this Sat morning only three blocks from my house here in LV. 8:10 AM I was headed to a jobsite meeting (and running late, naturally) had my fanny pack w/ me, driver side window down, just lit a cigarette, elbow had "locked" the door, all others locked, going 20+ mph in a 25 zone approaching an elementary school double crosswalk, no other cars in the immediate vicinity at the moment...

Two young latinos in the second crosswalk walking from my right to my left... so I slowed down. They also slowed down, one continuing walking past the centerline of the street and stopped, the second paused directly in my path... eye contact made with both, fanny pack (which had been on passenger seat) somehow found it's way into my lap, little hairs on back of neck began crawling. I waved the guy in front of me to cross, he waved back stop, (I was creeping very slowly) fanny pack opened, right hand on glock still in lap, first guy said "We need your car" left the crosswalk and walked up to the door as I approached the second crosswalk.

I said "Tell him to move NOW" and swerved left a little over centerline (no oncoming traffic, no one in rear mirror behind me) making #1 back up, gave the little Hyundai some gas as #2 jumped out of the way and drove on, watching in my rear view mirror as they flipped me off.

20 - 25 seconds max.

Hmmm, methinks they was up to no good. Went to jobsite meeting and explained encounter to client who happens to be a Deputy Attorney General for Nevada. Was told it's a really common method of either getting a car or getting a slight injury and insurance award if #2 is bumped as you try to get away. He called someone at Metro for me, gave them my tag#, location, descriptions, yada and we moved on to talk about his house framing, etc.

This I was told by my client, they're in the crosswalk and have the right-of-way only if they remain a pedestrian crossing the street. As soon as they leave the white striped zone or display intent other than crossing the street (loitering, creating a traffic hazard in the street, attempted car jack, etc) they can be found in violation of something that allows police action.

At no time did anyone see the glock. They each had a potential witness to corrobarate story, I did not. You could say I left the scene of a crime (vehicle traveling through pedestrian laden crosswalk) and had I called Metro myself I would have had to explain it all to them and would have been late for my meeting (I'm sure client would've understood). Had I displayed the gun... who knows? Moot point. I had it if I needed it.

Imagine you were an unarmed 16 year old kid or a 40 year old woman in my place (I live with two such who also drive).

Please keep your doors locked, eyes on the road, in condition yellow, off the cell phone, both hands free (I chucked the just lit up cigarette as #1 approached my door). I say all this because my G/F does NOT lock her door (nor do her boys) she is in perpetual condition white or whatever is below that and oftentimes when she gets in the car she fires up a smoke AND the cell phone at the same time. I HATE having her drive and insist I drive whenever we go somewhere in the same car. We discussed this incident at length, and as I said this occured three blocks from our house in a residential zone (for those of you in LV, between Spring Mountain and Flamingo on Torrey Pines at the Katie intersection).

And yet, She thinks me paranoid when we go shopping because I always rubberneck the parking lot when we park going in, I hate parking next to vans or big SUV's, I take too long getting out of the car as I look around and never park close enough to the door for her and when we come out with a full shopping cart and transfer the load into the car, I stop and look around before I stick my head in the trunk or back seat.

It's just a Hyundai...

Now, if the guy (#1) had said "We need directions" or "we need some help" who knows? Their hands were empty at the moment. My right hand was not.

So...back to Knoxville... 3 guys, maybe a handgun or two, one centers in front of you stopping you because you're a nice guy who doesn't want to run over anyone and maybe the other two crowd your doors, maybe w/ guns in hand. What DO YOU DO?

While I think I know what I'd do, it'd have to be done fast, it'd be horrible. Maybe someone would get shot or shot at. Quite possibly someone would get run over.

It happens so fast but seems to take forever. Maybe the rest of your life...

[Prophet]

So...back to Knoxville... 3 guys, maybe a handgun or two, one centers in front of you stopping you because you're a nice guy who doesn't want to run over anyone and maybe the other two crowd your doors, maybe w/ guns in hand. What DO YOU DO?

I simply wouldn't be a nice guy anymore and the guy infront of my truck would either move or become a speed bump because when I smash on the gas in my truck it moves very quickly.

[cloudcroft]

That sure does make me angry!

POSs like those animals should be killed SLOWLY...then sent to hell.

Too bad LOTS of people STILL don't and NEVER WILL think this can happen to them and so aren't armed or even vigilant.

It's a hell of a way to learn.

-- John D.

[M14fan]

I am saddened to learn of such an atrocity. I lived for many years just outside of Oak Ridge and made many a trip to Knoxville. I am saddened to know that my tax dollars are often spent to 'rehab' such degenerate creatures and release them to do such things again. And I am sorry that more people don't teach their children that your vehicle is 3000 pounds of weaponry if you don't mind using it.

Awareness is paramount! You MUST be aware of your surroundings at all times and remember that being to 'nice' to run over an assailant or hit another vehicle in the course of avoiding a carjacking can leave you dead or worse.

[threegun]

Thats why we carry guys.

Let me just say that if I could borrow Saddam Hussein's body grinder they would get it feet first.

I find it particularly disgusting that this is the first I hear of this incident. Yet the Duke players are still fighting for their freedom and plastered all over the news. That makes me even sicker. The liberal media stinks.

[M14fan]

You owe animals everywhere an apology. The corrupt, disgusting, fetid, festering, purulent, loathsome, feculent creature that perpetrated this act is unworthy to be equated with human, animal, or even microbial life forms.

You are correct though, there is no evil dreamt of in the darkest corners of hell that are bad enough to serve as sufficient punishment.

[revjen45]

A friend I worked with said he was approaching a stop sign at an off ramp (late 70s in the L.A. area) when a man jumped in front of his car in an obvious attempt to get him to stop. He stepped on the gas and knocked the moron thru the air. It turned out that the moron had car trouble and couldn't get anyone to stop, so he decided to just jump in front of the next car. Since the recipient of the vehicular kinetic energy had deliberately placed himself in peril my friend prevailed in the end. Ask Reginald Denny about stopping for someone who gets in front of your vehicle to get you to stop, particularly in the Great Southern Kalifornia Cesspool. Unfortunately I work for an employer who bans guns in cars so I can't pack on the way to work, but at any other time I am armed. I do lock my doors and try to stay alert, and I have no qualms about whatever harm befalls an assailant. These sub humans deserve to be flogged within an inch of their lives for every one of the several violent felonies they committed (obviously this would require more than one session with the knout), before they are hanged for murder.

[BillCA]

I'm going to list the things that set off my radar that something may be about to happen. Let's see if this rings anyone else's radar

On the Highway
1. Person(s) approaching while you're stopped in traffic.
2. Bogus Pedestrians (as mentioned above-a new one on me)
3. Bogus Accident - with person(s) walking towards stopped traffic
4. Bump & rob - minor bump at stoplight & rob when you get out to inspect
5. Idiot Stop - When that "idiot" ahead stops for no reason other than to let his friends rush you.

Parking lots & Garages
1. Being approached when you near a particular car
2. Persons loitering in the area
3. Persons walking aimlessly in the parking lot (lost or "hunting")
4. Being approached while loading goods into car/trunk
5. Approaching with flyers or leaflets or for "signature gathering"
6. Persons asking for a "jump start"
7. Being followed from store exit towards your car.

Around Home
1. Unrecognized people walking nearby
2. Person leaving a nearby car to approach you
3. Anyone unknown loitering
4. Unusual cars or vans nearby, esp. with darkened windows
5. Pedestrian asking for directions (most are in cars)
6. Anyone approaching your garage/carport as you prepare to exit car or leave.

A little profiling - Most car-jackers are likely to be younger males, under 30. Dress and demeanor may be obvious. Targets are people who are not aware of surroundings and/or may be easily intimidated (looking straight ahead, elderly, etc). Though be wary of females who have a male partner nearby.

Countermeasures:
1. keep your gun hand free. Carry groceries or goods in your weak hand.
2. stay aware of others when leaving a store/mall
3. Keep house keys separate from car keys (in case your keys are taken)
4. Return to the store or mall if you think someone is hinkey.

[Odd Job]

When I read that story posted by Samurai it sounded like one of dozens of similar stories coming out of South Africa. In fact I had a little bet with myself whether it was South Africans involved. Seems the mentality is there but not the nationality.

This is what the ordinary South African fears and has to contend with every day, people. And it is why I and many of my colleagues went on dedicated anti-hijacking courses. In any other country you would do a double-take if you saw a car parked on a shooting range and watched two paramedics, a radiographer, a radiologist and an orthopaedic surgeon jumping in and out of the car and firing from within the car at various targets around the vehicle.
Anti-hijacking is also part of just about every driving instructor's resume you will come across in Johannesburg today. Electronics, immobilizers, in-car defense mechanisms and the like are all influenced by hijacking. I could produce about 20 pages here today on this subject. Everybody I know has had a relative or a friend carjacked in South Africa. It got so bad in the late 90s that I resorted to driving with my pistol on the steering wheel at night and during the day I would draw if ANYONE approached the vehicle. Stopping at lights: no way! If it is late, I don't stop.

One night I almost fired on a policeman because he tailed me down a dark street and did two left turns (which signalled to me I was being tailed). He had no lights, and I couldn't see any markings on the vehicle, which was a white utility vehicle that we call a 'bakkie.' When I slowed, he slowed, when I sped up he did the same, so in the end I put the gear in neutral, let the car roll and undid my seatbelt and twisted round in my seat, pistol in hand, door slightly ajar. he couldn't see the gun because I had it up against the headrest and I was ready to get out. Then he put the blues on and got out. I had been ready to start the proceedings.
I was not amused and told him he was a fool for tailing me like that. He said it was because I had out-of-town plates

Johannesburg is the carjacking capital of the world. The problem is that you can prevent a lot of carjackings on the road by altering your driving and being extra vigilant, but everybody has to stop their car when they get home, or when they pull up for fuel, or when they get to work. And that's when they can get you. They also often employ devious means to get you to stop on the open road. Here is an example:

A consultant radiologist was called out to report a brain scan late one night. On his way to the hospital, he suddenly came upon a child lying motionless, right in the middle of the road. The doctor (Jon) stopped and got out to see if the kid was dead or badly injured. As he approached the kid, the kid suddenly made a miraculous recovery and jumped up and darted into the bushes at the side of the road. Just then Jon saw a movement in the corner of his eye and he realised what had happened. He doesn't remember how, but he managed to get back to the car before two shadows that emerged from the bushes could get to the vehicle or him. He slammed the driver's door shut and stepped on it (luckily he had left the car running). When he got to the hospital, he parked the car at the security office and got out, quite shaken. When he opened the door he could see scraps of finger tips wedged in the door frame and a long blood streak from the door edge all the way down the side of the car! He had been millimetres away from having the door forced open.
Carjacking is so bad and so frequent in SA that it is the reason why I (and many others) have drawn our firearms the most times while being in a vehicle. It is just a shame I couldn't afford the Blaster system, because I would have loved to have burnt a hijacker. They have caused the worst misery to the people of SA and I have seen the results in the trauma unit. We've lost colleagues, we've had visitors from overseas maimed, and we've had colleagues with terrible injuries from these vermin.
It is a subject I feel quite strongly about, and I can tell you that if I ever get the chance to face down a carjacker and I find the circumstances amenable, someone is going to take some nasty damage.

[tony pasley]

It is a reminder that no place is safe. The tragic part is the inocents that are claimed. We must provide our own security because we are the only one where we are.

[armedandsafe]

Two carjacking stories. Each happened in San diego in the 80s.

Young lady at a stoplight and the jacker reached through the open window, grabbed her by the neck with one hand and rached across her to steering column for the keys. Her boyfirend, in the passenger seat, flipped out his Buck and cut the perp's throat.

I left a grassroots meeting late at night and pulled out of the parking lot to head home. A car whipped in front of me and another popped up behind, pinning me into the left turn lane. Two fellows jumped out of the car in front, one jumped out of the car in back and all three headed for me. I rolled out of the car to the ground and rolled back under the car, taking the keys with me and pulling my carry piece as I did so. the attackers were so busy trying to get at me under the car, they didn't notice about 10 of my fellow grassroots enthusiasts coming across the parking lot and the street on a dead run. This was before the day of cell phones, so we had to use my CB to call, "Crime in progress, shots fired" into the SDPD.

Now, several of you will chastise me for leaving the car. This particular group had already jacked several cars over the previous weeks. Their tactic was to approach the car and shoot through the windows, without giving the drivers and passengers a chance to respond. Staying in the car had not worked for the previous victims, so I was trying something differently. There are a couple of perps somewhere with very bad ankles.

Pops

[M14fan]

I won't be one to chastise for leaving the car. Only if you had passengers at risk would I scold. Sounds to me like you used a strategy that worked and I am a big fan of stuff that works. Good job.

[Prophet]

Armedandsafe you actually shot the dudes in the ankles (Kudos to you) but did you get in trouble for that? Well sux for them shouldn't have messed with a ccw carrier.