Hillary Hole Plug

1972RedNeck · February 26, 2024, 04:48 PM

Wanting to delete the lock and plug the hole on my new model 25 Smith & Wesson. I have used the TK Customs kit before and am happy with it on my stainless revolvers.

What color do I need for my 25? Black polished I assume? Black matte would be for the scandium frame revolvers?

wild cat mccane · February 26, 2024, 05:09 PM

The color can't be for the Scandium as those revolvers are the only models without the lock.

That is because the lock has never once failed but in the imagine of the internet for anything other than the scandium airweights...which is why they don't don't currently have the locks. It is also thought that it was a dropped gun that was the only possible way for the lock to fail on the j frame airweights.

Good luck. I personally think the flat screw on the cylinder release is more glaringly unattractive than the simple small hole.

FrankenMauser · February 26, 2024, 09:30 PM

Quote:

That is because the lock has never once failed but (...)

It spontaneously engaged on my 642, in the middle of the desert, and locked the hammer at about 40% travel. With a live round under the hammer, and a cylinder that was then stuck locked.

But they never fail. Never. Not possibly in a ridiculously dangerous way, either...

1972RedNeck · February 26, 2024, 11:23 PM

Quote:

The color can't be for the Scandium as those revolvers are the only models without the lock.

Pretty sure the 327 is a scandium n frame with the hillary hole…

upstate81 · February 27, 2024, 07:51 AM

The only models available without the lock are concealed hammer j frames.

Webleymkv · February 27, 2024, 12:23 PM

Assuming that your Model 25 has the polished blue finish, then the black polished plug should match the finish most closely (I've never used the plug myself, so I can't say how closely it will match). The matte black plug would more closely match revolvers with bead-blast blue or black anodized finishes like the scandium or black-finished aluminum frame models such as the 442.

Most of the scandium frame models do indeed have the lock as only the DAO concealed hammer "centennial" style J-Frames such as the 642, 442, 340, 640, 43c, and 351 are available without it (though these are optional models and many centennials are available with the lock also). All current-production S&W revolvers with either the standard spur hammer or shrouded "bodyguard" style hammer come equipped with the lock.

I will not say that malfunctions with the lock are impossible or that they never happen, but I will say that they're very rare especially in all-steel guns and/or those in non-magnum calibers. The majority of stories of lock malfunctions seem to be with the lightweight scandium-frame guns in hard-recoiling magnum calibers like .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum. The chances of you having an issue with your M25, particularly if you shoot standard pressure ammunition, are quite low.

The lock is actually a fairly simple mechanism in that, when engaged, the lock "flag" rotates up and back so that a small tab on its inboard surface moves into a groove in the hammer and prevents movement of the hammer. Because a revolver's recoil arc is up and back, when fired inertia actually pushes the lock flag down and forward out of engagement with the hammer. Because of this, I believe that most, if not all, cases of the lock malfunctioning are due to either defective/broken parts or improperly installed parts. The tremendous recoil of magnum ammunition in extremely lightweight guns will only increase the likelihood or accelerate the failure of broken/defective/improperly installed parts. In short, I believe that malfunctions of the lock have more to do with QC issues than with an inherent flaw in the design.

Of course, many people want to eliminate any possibility, no matter how remote, of malfunction by removing the lock all together and others simply dislike the look of it or resent what they perceive it to represent. Those are matters of personal preference and really can't be argued. Bear in mind, however, that removing or modifying the lock may impact the gun's warranty and under the right (or perhaps wrong) circumstances could possibly open the owner to increased legal liability. At the end of the day, it's your gun and you can do as you wish with it, just bear the mechanics of the lock and potential consequences of removing it in mind.

1972RedNeck · February 27, 2024, 12:39 PM

I appreciate the input. I'm not really worried about the lock failing, although I may or may not run quite a few 325 grain bullets at 1200 FPS through it (I'm a bit of a recoil junkie).

Mainly I just don't like the looks or the reason they were installed in the first place. I have deleted the locks on my other revolvers and am happy with them.

Webleymkv · February 27, 2024, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 1972RedNeck
I appreciate the input. I'm not really worried about the lock failing, although I may or may not run quite a few 325 grain bullets at 1200 FPS through it (I'm a bit of a recoil junkie).

The lock notwithstanding, I don't think it's advisable to put ammunition that powerful through your M25. Per Hodgdon's data, a 325 gr bullet at 1200 fps is solidly into their .45 Colt Ruger/Freedom Arms/TC only data. While the S&W M25 is certainly stronger than a Colt SAA (particularly a vintage one), it isn't quite up to the strength of the guns that Hodgdon specifies for that kind of ammunition. While I doubt the gun would blow up, it would probably shoot loose in short order with such powerful ammunition. Were the revolver in question mine, I'd probably limit it to something in the neighborhood of a 250-255 gr bullet at around 1000 fps as that's a useful amount of power and well within the limits of your S&W's strength.

Pumpkin · February 27, 2024, 01:27 PM

325 gr bullets at 1200 fps out of a M25 seem abusive to me. The locking bolt cuts are right over the thinnest part of the chamber. Your gun, I sure wouldn’t do it to mine.

1972RedNeck · February 27, 2024, 02:59 PM

Yes, I am well aware. You could say I am a follower of Linebaugh.

Webleymkv · February 27, 2024, 03:15 PM

Again, it's your gun and you can do what you like but I'll reiterate that 325 gr at 1200 fps isn't going to be healthy for a S&W M25. If that's the kind of ammo you want to shoot, I'd suggest that you consider trading it for a Ruger Redhawk in .45 Long Colt as it's better suited to that sort of ammunition and doesn't have any locks to begin with.

wild cat mccane · February 27, 2024, 03:44 PM

No. All the scandium line 357mags are lockless minus the R8.

The 44mag 329D for example. Hammer fired. Scandium.

Out the door for logic on the 22mag revolvers 22mag 351 pd not greater than 357, lock. 351C no lock.

Only an issue on the alloy airweights/arelite pd scandium. So that's why there aren't on them.

The 25 is clearly a gloss finish, not the matte airweight spray paint flat black.

1972RedNeck · February 27, 2024, 05:40 PM

Quote:

The 25 is clearly a gloss finish, not the matte airweight spray paint flat black.

Thank you

1972RedNeck · February 27, 2024, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Again, it's your gun and you can do what you like but I'll reiterate that 325 gr at 1200 fps isn't going to be healthy for a S&W M25. If that's the kind of ammo you want to shoot, I'd suggest that you consider trading it for a Ruger Redhawk in .45 Long Colt as it's better suited to that sort of ammunition and doesn't have any locks to begin with.

I have a Super Redhawk in 454 Casull. I wanted something a bit lighter that still packed a punch. After a lot of research, I decided on a Model 25, and it doesn't disappoint. And it is noticeably more accurate than my SRH 454 as well.

Webleymkv · February 27, 2024, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wild cat mccane
No. All the scandium line 357mags are lockless minus the R8.

The 44mag 329D for example. Hammer fired. Scandium.

No, you are incorrect. The only revolvers currently available from S&W without locks, regardless of frame material, are DAO, concealed hammer "centennial" style J-Frames. All of S&W's current DA/SA revolvers regardless of frame material or caliber have the ILS. This includes the following models with Scandium frames: 360 PD, Performance Center 327, Performance Center 327 TRR8, Performance Center M&P R8, 329 PD, and Governor. If you simply look at the left side of any of these revolvers, you can see the lock hole just above the thumbpiece as you can here:

https://www.guns.com/firearms/handgu...l-new?p=634813

or here:

https://www.guns.com/firearms/handgu...6588&soldout=1

or here:

https://www.smith-wesson.com/product/n-frame-170245

or here:

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/gu...r8-357-magnum/

or here:

https://www.smith-wesson.com/product...r-model-m-p-r8

or here:

https://www.smith-wesson.com/product...governor-black

Mannlicher · March 10, 2024, 08:25 AM

as often happens, the 'answers' have gotten far away from the question that was asked.

**44 AMP** · March 12, 2024, 01:25 PM

325gr bullets at 1200fps fired from a S&W Model 25 (.45 Colt)??

Can you even get that from a model 25?? (barrel length?? 6"??)
IF so, do the cases extract normally? Or do you have to pound them out??

Please keep a round count so you can come back here and tell us how many rounds it took to beat your gun into unserviceability. When it does stop working right, and I sincerely believe it will, shooting loads at that level, send it to S&W. IF you haven't stretched the frame, they will fix it, ONCE.

They will also tell you what percentage of the gun's service life you have used up- (I'm guessing it will be high, like 80% or so) and that they will not repair it again.

I know of a somewhat similar case, a guy was convinced he could shoot 180s at 1200fps from his .357 model 19 4". No one could convince him it was a poor idea. Don't know if he ever got the velocity he was after, but he surely did try. He had to use a rod and hammer to extract the empties, but that didn't stop him, either.

I don't know how many rounds it took, but he kept at it until the cylinder wouldn't open or close without a mallet.....

He took the gun to our local smith who sent it to S&W.

S&W did fix the gun. Also said he had used up 80% of its service life, don't do that, and they would not fix it again.

Your gun, your call, but I think a 325 at 1200fps is an overload for the S&W and the rough equivalent of repeatedly revving past the red line and popping the clutch, Something is going to go wrong, probably sooner than later.

Good Luck, if you shoot overloads, you'll need it!

1972RedNeck · March 13, 2024, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Can you even get that from a model 25?? (barrel length?? 6"??)
IF so, do the cases extract normally? Or do you have to pound them out??

6.5" barrel. Cases fall out. I question the velocity myself, but it is a healthy charge of H110.

georgehwbush · March 14, 2024, 11:04 AM

that's over 18k copper crush pressure. in an m25 ???

1972RedNeck · March 14, 2024, 12:31 PM

Quote:

that's over 18k copper crush pressure. in an m25 ???

I understand it's not in everyone's comfort zone. Look up the writings of John Linebaugh if you're interested. According to him, the M25 frame is equal in strength to the M29 (44 Mag) and the cylinder is 80% as strong as the M29.

The cases literally just fall out of the cylinder when I tip the barrel up.

Drm50 · March 14, 2024, 02:11 PM

I have a few S&W N frames and I don’t know how they stack up against a 2nd or 3rd gen.
Colt SAA but it don’t matter. A N frame S&W is a precision firearm designed for the industry standards of ammunition. This is one case where prolonged diet of heavy magnum loads will beat your gun up. I don’t care what cartridge standard or magnum. A 27 will take more magnums than the bigger bores.
I shot 240 JHP / 22.5 gr 2400 in Ruger SBH, my deer shooter. The only reason for hot load is it’s a sweet spot of accuracy. I would never squeeze them off in my 29s. My S&Ws all get fed cast and moderate to LV target loads. I have one 25-5 tuned to 250 cast duplicating original 45 Colt BP load with Unique or Win 630. My 25-2s are tuned with 230 cast, also mild for paper. I had a Ruger BH 45Colt that came with a 270gr Kieth style mold. I loaded a few 270s and found them unpleasant and unnecessary for anything in these parts.

wild cat mccane · March 14, 2024, 02:18 PM

along with the star, crane, cylinder, front sight, rear sight, and hammer?

Pumpkin · March 14, 2024, 04:08 PM

I don’t think “comfort” has anything to do with the advice you’re getting.
If you want to shoot these loads in your 25 then go for it. Personally, if it were my 25 I would give it all the love and respect it deserves, 250grs at around 850-900 seem fine to me.
I haven’t seen any growing on trees lately.

**44 AMP** · March 14, 2024, 04:44 PM

I don't know for sure what they do today, but in the past, when S&W offered magnum and non magnum chamberings in the same frame size guns, they said they used a different heat treating on the magnum cylinders.

The super heavy bullets are something that has been pushed by certain folks in recent decades, I don't have a need or a use for them.

Shoot what you feel is right, if it works, fine. If it causes problem, re-evaluate your priorities.

1972RedNeck · March 14, 2024, 07:53 PM

Quote:

I don’t think “comfort” has anything to do with the advice you’re getting.

The only advice I was looking for was what color of Hillary hole plug to get. And I also said I may or may not be pushing 325's at 1200 FPS. Enter Schrodinger's cat.

I picked up this new M25 at my LGS. Maybe not growing on trees, but not hard to come by either. I bought it for the sole purpose of shooting heavy 45 Colt loads in a lighter package for my occasional dirt bike trips to the middle of nowhere in bear country. If it only lasts for 500 rounds of hot loads, that will be 20+ years.

I will say though, it is hands down my most accurate handgun. I've never really been worried about precision accuracy from my handguns but I was astonished at how good I actually am with a handgun when I shot this one for the first time. As such, I have been seriously contemplating getting another M25 for the hot loads and keeping this one as a tack driver.

February 26, 2024, 04:48 PM	#1
1972RedNeck Senior Member Join Date: December 8, 2015 Posts: 200	Hillary Hole Plug Wanting to delete the lock and plug the hole on my new model 25 Smith & Wesson. I have used the TK Customs kit before and am happy with it on my stainless revolvers. What color do I need for my 25? Black polished I assume? Black matte would be for the scandium frame revolvers?

February 26, 2024, 05:09 PM	#2
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,626	The color can't be for the Scandium as those revolvers are the only models without the lock. That is because the lock has never once failed but in the imagine of the internet for anything other than the scandium airweights...which is why they don't don't currently have the locks. It is also thought that it was a dropped gun that was the only possible way for the lock to fail on the j frame airweights. Good luck. I personally think the flat screw on the cylinder release is more glaringly unattractive than the simple small hole. __________________ My wife is a pulmonologist (respiratory Dr) and epidemiologist. If you have any questions on COVID, please reach out to me in PM.

February 27, 2024, 03:44 PM	#12
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,626	No. All the scandium line 357mags are lockless minus the R8. The 44mag 329D for example. Hammer fired. Scandium. Out the door for logic on the 22mag revolvers 22mag 351 pd not greater than 357, lock. 351C no lock. Only an issue on the alloy airweights/arelite pd scandium. So that's why there aren't on them. The 25 is clearly a gloss finish, not the matte airweight spray paint flat black. __________________ My wife is a pulmonologist (respiratory Dr) and epidemiologist. If you have any questions on COVID, please reach out to me in PM. Last edited by wild cat mccane; February 27, 2024 at 03:52 PM.

March 10, 2024, 08:25 AM	#16
Mannlicher Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2001 Location: North Central Florida & Miami Posts: 3,209	as often happens, the 'answers' have gotten far away from the question that was asked. __________________ Nemo Me Impune Lacesset "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan

March 12, 2024, 01:25 PM	#17
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,832	325gr bullets at 1200fps fired from a S&W Model 25 (.45 Colt)?? Can you even get that from a model 25?? (barrel length?? 6"??) IF so, do the cases extract normally? Or do you have to pound them out?? Please keep a round count so you can come back here and tell us how many rounds it took to beat your gun into unserviceability. When it does stop working right, and I sincerely believe it will, shooting loads at that level, send it to S&W. IF you haven't stretched the frame, they will fix it, ONCE. They will also tell you what percentage of the gun's service life you have used up- (I'm guessing it will be high, like 80% or so) and that they will not repair it again. I know of a somewhat similar case, a guy was convinced he could shoot 180s at 1200fps from his .357 model 19 4". No one could convince him it was a poor idea. Don't know if he ever got the velocity he was after, but he surely did try. He had to use a rod and hammer to extract the empties, but that didn't stop him, either. I don't know how many rounds it took, but he kept at it until the cylinder wouldn't open or close without a mallet..... He took the gun to our local smith who sent it to S&W. S&W did fix the gun. Also said he had used up 80% of its service life, don't do that, and they would not fix it again. Your gun, your call, but I think a 325 at 1200fps is an overload for the S&W and the rough equivalent of repeatedly revving past the red line and popping the clutch, Something is going to go wrong, probably sooner than later. Good Luck, if you shoot overloads, you'll need it! __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 27, 2024, 07:51 AM	#5
upstate81 Senior Member Join Date: October 20, 2011 Location: NY Posts: 801	The only models available without the lock are concealed hammer j frames.

February 27, 2024, 12:23 PM	#6
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 10,446	Assuming that your Model 25 has the polished blue finish, then the black polished plug should match the finish most closely (I've never used the plug myself, so I can't say how closely it will match). The matte black plug would more closely match revolvers with bead-blast blue or black anodized finishes like the scandium or black-finished aluminum frame models such as the 442. Most of the scandium frame models do indeed have the lock as only the DAO concealed hammer "centennial" style J-Frames such as the 642, 442, 340, 640, 43c, and 351 are available without it (though these are optional models and many centennials are available with the lock also). All current-production S&W revolvers with either the standard spur hammer or shrouded "bodyguard" style hammer come equipped with the lock. I will not say that malfunctions with the lock are impossible or that they never happen, but I will say that they're very rare especially in all-steel guns and/or those in non-magnum calibers. The majority of stories of lock malfunctions seem to be with the lightweight scandium-frame guns in hard-recoiling magnum calibers like .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum. The chances of you having an issue with your M25, particularly if you shoot standard pressure ammunition, are quite low. The lock is actually a fairly simple mechanism in that, when engaged, the lock "flag" rotates up and back so that a small tab on its inboard surface moves into a groove in the hammer and prevents movement of the hammer. Because a revolver's recoil arc is up and back, when fired inertia actually pushes the lock flag down and forward out of engagement with the hammer. Because of this, I believe that most, if not all, cases of the lock malfunctioning are due to either defective/broken parts or improperly installed parts. The tremendous recoil of magnum ammunition in extremely lightweight guns will only increase the likelihood or accelerate the failure of broken/defective/improperly installed parts. In short, I believe that malfunctions of the lock have more to do with QC issues than with an inherent flaw in the design. Of course, many people want to eliminate any possibility, no matter how remote, of malfunction by removing the lock all together and others simply dislike the look of it or resent what they perceive it to represent. Those are matters of personal preference and really can't be argued. Bear in mind, however, that removing or modifying the lock may impact the gun's warranty and under the right (or perhaps wrong) circumstances could possibly open the owner to increased legal liability. At the end of the day, it's your gun and you can do as you wish with it, just bear the mechanics of the lock and potential consequences of removing it in mind.

February 27, 2024, 12:39 PM	#7
1972RedNeck Senior Member Join Date: December 8, 2015 Posts: 200	I appreciate the input. I'm not really worried about the lock failing, although I may or may not run quite a few 325 grain bullets at 1200 FPS through it (I'm a bit of a recoil junkie). Mainly I just don't like the looks or the reason they were installed in the first place. I have deleted the locks on my other revolvers and am happy with them.

February 27, 2024, 01:27 PM	#9
Pumpkin Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2020 Location: Seguin Texas Posts: 422	325 gr bullets at 1200 fps out of a M25 seem abusive to me. The locking bolt cuts are right over the thinnest part of the chamber. Your gun, I sure wouldn’t do it to mine.

February 27, 2024, 02:59 PM	#10
1972RedNeck Senior Member Join Date: December 8, 2015 Posts: 200	Yes, I am well aware. You could say I am a follower of Linebaugh.

February 27, 2024, 03:15 PM	#11
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 10,446	Again, it's your gun and you can do what you like but I'll reiterate that 325 gr at 1200 fps isn't going to be healthy for a S&W M25. If that's the kind of ammo you want to shoot, I'd suggest that you consider trading it for a Ruger Redhawk in .45 Long Colt as it's better suited to that sort of ammunition and doesn't have any locks to begin with.

March 14, 2024, 11:04 AM	#19
georgehwbush Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2023 Location: down town USA Posts: 144	that's over 18k copper crush pressure. in an m25 ??? __________________ If you are not sure where your bullet will stop, then don't send it!

March 14, 2024, 02:11 PM	#21
Drm50 Senior Member Join Date: November 10, 2014 Posts: 1,380	I have a few S&W N frames and I don’t know how they stack up against a 2nd or 3rd gen. Colt SAA but it don’t matter. A N frame S&W is a precision firearm designed for the industry standards of ammunition. This is one case where prolonged diet of heavy magnum loads will beat your gun up. I don’t care what cartridge standard or magnum. A 27 will take more magnums than the bigger bores. I shot 240 JHP / 22.5 gr 2400 in Ruger SBH, my deer shooter. The only reason for hot load is it’s a sweet spot of accuracy. I would never squeeze them off in my 29s. My S&Ws all get fed cast and moderate to LV target loads. I have one 25-5 tuned to 250 cast duplicating original 45 Colt BP load with Unique or Win 630. My 25-2s are tuned with 230 cast, also mild for paper. I had a Ruger BH 45Colt that came with a 270gr Kieth style mold. I loaded a few 270s and found them unpleasant and unnecessary for anything in these parts.

March 14, 2024, 02:18 PM	#22
wild cat mccane Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2011 Posts: 3,626	along with the star, crane, cylinder, front sight, rear sight, and hammer? __________________ My wife is a pulmonologist (respiratory Dr) and epidemiologist. If you have any questions on COVID, please reach out to me in PM.

March 14, 2024, 04:08 PM	#23
Pumpkin Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2020 Location: Seguin Texas Posts: 422	I don’t think “comfort” has anything to do with the advice you’re getting. If you want to shoot these loads in your 25 then go for it. Personally, if it were my 25 I would give it all the love and respect it deserves, 250grs at around 850-900 seem fine to me. I haven’t seen any growing on trees lately.

March 14, 2024, 04:44 PM	#24
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,832	I don't know for sure what they do today, but in the past, when S&W offered magnum and non magnum chamberings in the same frame size guns, they said they used a different heat treating on the magnum cylinders. The super heavy bullets are something that has been pushed by certain folks in recent decades, I don't have a need or a use for them. Shoot what you feel is right, if it works, fine. If it causes problem, re-evaluate your priorities. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.