Primers exchangable?

dropkick · November 17, 2015, 03:07 AM

This is a hypothetical question, as I likely would never do this but... you never know... we could have another shortage...

Okay, now, small handgun primers are the same diameter as small rifle primers and large handgun are the same diameter as large rifle. I know that the metal of rifle primers is slightly thicker in order to handle the higher combustion pressures (I don't know if there are any other differences).

My question is could you use the rifle primers in place of the handgun primers?

I would imagine that the opposite switch (handgun for rifle) wouldn't be advisable for safety reasons.

Also I would think that there might be a problem with the likely protrusion of the primers as the primer pocket for handgun brass wouldn't be as deep as that in rifle brass. However if you limited the ammo only for use in revolvers would that be a problem?

side question: What about shotgun primers, can they be used in place of other primers?
(I don't reload shotgun so I have no knowledge of their size or any of their other attributes - which could make this a moot question, as they could be completely different in size or make up)

Geezerbiker · November 17, 2015, 03:45 AM

Large rifle primers are deeper than large pistol primers but they're the same size for small rifle and pistol primers.

I've used small pistol primers in my .357 mag revolvers for years with excellent results. I'd say if they shoot OK in your handgun, use them...

Tony

DaleA · November 17, 2015, 05:24 AM

Shotshell primers have a rim (or maybe 'flange' would be a better word) on them so they would not fit into rifle or pistol brass...but because the firearms world is so full of contradictions they ARE used in some muzzle loading rifles.

Sigh.

Shotshell 209 primers are pictured here:
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...06.9T0VtnIh4tk

and as usual a picture is worth (at least) a thousand words.

P.S. Welcome to the forum.

longcummins · November 17, 2015, 06:29 AM

I have been curious as to the same thing. As I accidentally primed up 100 rounds of 9mm with some cci br primers thinking i had put cci small pistol primers in the tray. I have them sitting in a separate container trying to figure out what to do with them.

m&p45acp10+1 · November 17, 2015, 08:11 AM

I have been using small rifle primers in place of small pistol primers for years. They are work just fine. Make sure to work loads up. Large rifle primers, are taller than pistol primers, and should not be interchanged.

g.willikers · November 17, 2015, 09:34 AM

Primer ignition can vary considerably.
Best to try your choice in your gun before loading up very many rounds.

snuffy · November 17, 2015, 10:06 AM

Nobody else has said it, so I will. Asking such a basic question like yours indicates you have a lot to learn before trying to reload anything. IF that's what you're doing on this reloading forum. Get several loading manuals , one from a company that makes bullets and loaders, another from a company that distributes only powder. As in Hornady, then Hodgdon. Read the front half of each manual for their how-to instructions, then come back here to ask specific questions.

This and other reloading forums on the net are a good source of info, but you will still need to have at least 2-3 manuals. We, us that have been doing reloading for many years are glad to answer intelligent, well written questions. But basic questions like yours indicate you haven't done the basic reading that's required.

**Unclenick** · November 17, 2015, 11:10 AM

The differences are several. Rifle primers have harder cups and larger amounts of priming mix to make a larger volume of gas for starting pressure. Magnum primers make even more gas than their repsective standard counterparts, and sometimes hotter sparks. The cups of the rifle primers are thicker. That, added to the thicker cushion of priming mix between the bottom of the cup and the tip of the anvil means they require higher energy strikes to ignite reliably. Many handguns, tuned DA revolvers in particular, are unable to supply that and will have misfires with them. As mentioned, large rifle primer cups cups are 0.010" longer than large pistol primer cups, which will cause them to protrude slightly from a pistol cases with the attendant potential hazard of slamfires or revolver rotation jams. So this is not something you want to do.

Small rifle primers cups have the same exterior dimensions as small pistol primer cups. They are heavier metal. They also typically have more priming mix, though a standard small rifle primer and a magnum small pistol primer are close. Indeed, for some small case capacity, low pressure rifle cartridges, like the .22 Hornet, some handloaders substitute small pistol primers on purpose to reduce the primer gas volume produced. The Hornet is famous for primer pressure starting to unseat their bullets before the powder burn is fully under way, causing high velocity SD and attendant irregular barrel time, which interferes with best accuracy. However, keep in mind the Hornet runs at pressures similar to the .357 magnum as measured in the old copper crushers. They differ on the modern conformal piezo transducer, but that instrument is a little squirrelly with small case diameters. The European CIP channel type piezo transducers do better and they have the peak pressures for both the .357 Mag and .22 Hornet at 3,000 bar, even.

So, what are your 9mm's going to do with the BR2? That primer is pretty warm, as I recall. It's going to raise the start pressure and that will, in turn raise peak pressure for a given powder charge. How much? I don't know without some experimenting. It will vary with the powder. So what you want to do, if you wish to avoid depriming, is to start a load workup with them. I would start 15% below maximum to allow 5% for the primer, and work up from there.

wogpotter · November 17, 2015, 11:23 AM

NO!
It comes under that "don't extrapolate or modify" rule for reloading.

Clark · November 17, 2015, 11:26 AM

As you can see from the numbers, there is a difference with some overlap.

I have been swapping rifle for pistol and pistol for rifle when it suits me for 16 years.

I am STILL trying to find an example where it did not work.

I am still trying each new vacuum cleaner to see if it will set off primers, and no luck there either.

**Unclenick** · November 17, 2015, 11:47 AM

As a practical matter, we all know that none of the primers alone will push a bullet into the lands and down a barrel, so they are all weaker than powder charges. I have, however seen velocity data to show (in .223) a magnum primer increasing velocity equal to what a 4.5% increase in powder charge would have done. That's about the most effect I've seen For that reason I threw the extra 5% into the pistol load. Another way to stay safe is to use light target loads.

dropkick · November 18, 2015, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snuffy

learn first load later
Nobody else has said it, so I will. Asking such a basic question like yours indicates you have a lot to learn before trying to reload anything. IF that's what you're doing on this reloading forum. Get several loading manuals , one from a company that makes bullets and loaders, another from a company that distributes only powder. As in Hornady, then Hodgdon. Read the front half of each manual for their how-to instructions, then come back here to ask specific questions.

This and other reloading forums on the net are a good source of info, but you will still need to have at least 2-3 manuals. We, us that have been doing reloading for many years are glad to answer intelligent, well written questions. But basic questions like yours indicate you haven't done the basic reading that's required.

and more gently by way of a PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimW77

They say there is no such thing as a stupid question...

BUT...

People could do a little work on their own instead of expecting to have the answers spoon feed to them without any effort on their part...

This question is asked AND ANSWERED over and over and over and over and over...

Why not do a SEARCH FOR YOURSELF and get the SAME answers from the SAME wanna-be internet experts over and over and over and over and over...

T.

It was my understanding that this board was for the promotion of shooting sports and the education of it's members. With a little comradery and entertainment thrown into the mix. However it seems that the two members above think it is more for the belittlement of other members. I don't know if they were having a bad day and wanted to make themselves feel better by putting down someone else, or if they are just total jackholes.

I don't really care.

I'm not going to discuss this anymore as I have no wish to get into a flame war. I've stated my opinion and I'm done.

dropkick · November 18, 2015, 01:09 AM

I just read all the posts again and now that I've cooled down a little I thought I sounded ungrateful as I only commented on the posts that irritated me and didn't say anything about those from the people that actually answered my question.

Thanks to all of you. I truly appreciate the time and effort you made in posting a helpful reply.

**Unclenick** · November 18, 2015, 06:37 PM

Always step away from the keyboard when you start to get mad. Nothing good comes of doing otherwise, as I've experienced myself. I find remaining calm and factual and indifferent to other's attempts to get your goat usually makes them madder and more frustrated than anything I might say intentionally would do.

Also please note that calling people names, no matter how provoked, is a violation of board rules, and normally gets a user a demerit point that, if accumulated in enough number in a short enough time period causes automatic temporary suspension of the user's account. I'm giving you a by on this one because they were rude and because they were wrong, IMHO, to the extent that primers are probably the least well documented and understood reloading component, with even load manual information on them being limited. Also, because the recent shortages forced many who would never otherwise do so, to look at going off-recipe, and these folks have asked for guidance on the subject without being scolded for doing so.

I'm going to close the thread so a war can't start over it, and as it seems to have run its course anyway.

November 17, 2015, 03:07 AM	#1
dropkick Junior Member Join Date: November 15, 2015 Posts: 8	Primers exchangable? This is a hypothetical question, as I likely would never do this but... you never know... we could have another shortage... Okay, now, small handgun primers are the same diameter as small rifle primers and large handgun are the same diameter as large rifle. I know that the metal of rifle primers is slightly thicker in order to handle the higher combustion pressures (I don't know if there are any other differences). My question is could you use the rifle primers in place of the handgun primers? I would imagine that the opposite switch (handgun for rifle) wouldn't be advisable for safety reasons. Also I would think that there might be a problem with the likely protrusion of the primers as the primer pocket for handgun brass wouldn't be as deep as that in rifle brass. However if you limited the ammo only for use in revolvers would that be a problem? side question: What about shotgun primers, can they be used in place of other primers? (I don't reload shotgun so I have no knowledge of their size or any of their other attributes - which could make this a moot question, as they could be completely different in size or make up) Last edited by dropkick; November 18, 2015 at 01:13 AM. Reason: used the term "cup" where I should have used "pocket"

November 17, 2015, 08:11 AM	#5
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	I have been using small rifle primers in place of small pistol primers for years. They are work just fine. Make sure to work loads up. Large rifle primers, are taller than pistol primers, and should not be interchanged. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.

November 17, 2015, 09:34 AM	#6
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Primer ignition can vary considerably. Best to try your choice in your gun before loading up very many rounds. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

November 17, 2015, 10:06 AM	#7
snuffy Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2001 Location: Oshkosh wi. Posts: 3,055	learn first load later Nobody else has said it, so I will. Asking such a basic question like yours indicates you have a lot to learn before trying to reload anything. IF that's what you're doing on this reloading forum. Get several loading manuals , one from a company that makes bullets and loaders, another from a company that distributes only powder. As in Hornady, then Hodgdon. Read the front half of each manual for their how-to instructions, then come back here to ask specific questions. This and other reloading forums on the net are a good source of info, but you will still need to have at least 2-3 manuals. We, us that have been doing reloading for many years are glad to answer intelligent, well written questions. But basic questions like yours indicate you haven't done the basic reading that's required. __________________ The more people I meet, the more I love my dog They're going to get their butts kicked over there this election. How come people can't spell and use words correctly?

November 17, 2015, 11:10 AM	#8
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	The differences are several. Rifle primers have harder cups and larger amounts of priming mix to make a larger volume of gas for starting pressure. Magnum primers make even more gas than their repsective standard counterparts, and sometimes hotter sparks. The cups of the rifle primers are thicker. That, added to the thicker cushion of priming mix between the bottom of the cup and the tip of the anvil means they require higher energy strikes to ignite reliably. Many handguns, tuned DA revolvers in particular, are unable to supply that and will have misfires with them. As mentioned, large rifle primer cups cups are 0.010" longer than large pistol primer cups, which will cause them to protrude slightly from a pistol cases with the attendant potential hazard of slamfires or revolver rotation jams. So this is not something you want to do. Small rifle primers cups have the same exterior dimensions as small pistol primer cups. They are heavier metal. They also typically have more priming mix, though a standard small rifle primer and a magnum small pistol primer are close. Indeed, for some small case capacity, low pressure rifle cartridges, like the .22 Hornet, some handloaders substitute small pistol primers on purpose to reduce the primer gas volume produced. The Hornet is famous for primer pressure starting to unseat their bullets before the powder burn is fully under way, causing high velocity SD and attendant irregular barrel time, which interferes with best accuracy. However, keep in mind the Hornet runs at pressures similar to the .357 magnum as measured in the old copper crushers. They differ on the modern conformal piezo transducer, but that instrument is a little squirrelly with small case diameters. The European CIP channel type piezo transducers do better and they have the peak pressures for both the .357 Mag and .22 Hornet at 3,000 bar, even. So, what are your 9mm's going to do with the BR2? That primer is pretty warm, as I recall. It's going to raise the start pressure and that will, in turn raise peak pressure for a given powder charge. How much? I don't know without some experimenting. It will vary with the powder. So what you want to do, if you wish to avoid depriming, is to start a load workup with them. I would start 15% below maximum to allow 5% for the primer, and work up from there. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

November 17, 2015, 03:45 AM	#2
Geezerbiker Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2011 Location: Willamina, OR Posts: 1,908	Large rifle primers are deeper than large pistol primers but they're the same size for small rifle and pistol primers. I've used small pistol primers in my .357 mag revolvers for years with excellent results. I'd say if they shoot OK in your handgun, use them... Tony

November 17, 2015, 05:24 AM	#3
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,312	Shotshell primers have a rim (or maybe 'flange' would be a better word) on them so they would not fit into rifle or pistol brass...but because the firearms world is so full of contradictions they ARE used in some muzzle loading rifles. Sigh. Shotshell 209 primers are pictured here: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...06.9T0VtnIh4tk and as usual a picture is worth (at least) a thousand words. P.S. Welcome to the forum.

November 17, 2015, 06:29 AM	#4
longcummins Junior Member Join Date: March 7, 2015 Posts: 6	I have been curious as to the same thing. As I accidentally primed up 100 rounds of 9mm with some cci br primers thinking i had put cci small pistol primers in the tray. I have them sitting in a separate container trying to figure out what to do with them.

November 17, 2015, 11:23 AM	#9
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	NO! It comes under that "don't extrapolate or modify" rule for reloading. __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.”

November 17, 2015, 11:26 AM	#10
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	As you can see from the numbers, there is a difference with some overlap. I have been swapping rifle for pistol and pistol for rifle when it suits me for 16 years. I am STILL trying to find an example where it did not work. I am still trying each new vacuum cleaner to see if it will set off primers, and no luck there either. __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

November 17, 2015, 11:47 AM	#11
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	As a practical matter, we all know that none of the primers alone will push a bullet into the lands and down a barrel, so they are all weaker than powder charges. I have, however seen velocity data to show (in .223) a magnum primer increasing velocity equal to what a 4.5% increase in powder charge would have done. That's about the most effect I've seen For that reason I threw the extra 5% into the pistol load. Another way to stay safe is to use light target loads. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

November 18, 2015, 01:09 AM	#13
dropkick Junior Member Join Date: November 15, 2015 Posts: 8	I just read all the posts again and now that I've cooled down a little I thought I sounded ungrateful as I only commented on the posts that irritated me and didn't say anything about those from the people that actually answered my question. Thanks to all of you. I truly appreciate the time and effort you made in posting a helpful reply.

November 18, 2015, 06:37 PM	#14
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Always step away from the keyboard when you start to get mad. Nothing good comes of doing otherwise, as I've experienced myself. I find remaining calm and factual and indifferent to other's attempts to get your goat usually makes them madder and more frustrated than anything I might say intentionally would do. Also please note that calling people names, no matter how provoked, is a violation of board rules, and normally gets a user a demerit point that, if accumulated in enough number in a short enough time period causes automatic temporary suspension of the user's account. I'm giving you a by on this one because they were rude and because they were wrong, IMHO, to the extent that primers are probably the least well documented and understood reloading component, with even load manual information on them being limited. Also, because the recent shortages forced many who would never otherwise do so, to look at going off-recipe, and these folks have asked for guidance on the subject without being scolded for doing so. I'm going to close the thread so a war can't start over it, and as it seems to have run its course anyway. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle