Help With Emergency Animal Management Course

erbenson · January 16, 2014, 04:40 PM

Hi -

I have been a handgun shooter for a number of years and now teach an Emergency Animal Management course at a university. One part of the course touches on euthanasia and part of this includes the use of firearms.

The students in the course come from a variety of backgrounds and in general, when one says ".22 LR" or ".223", they don't have a feel for the difference in terms of bullet weight or similar. I would like for them to be able to hold an inert round of some of the major types. Given that it's a litigation adverse university, I don't want to hand out live ammunition.

Would anyone be willing to make a few inert rounds for some of the common calibers? Would only need a one or two of any given caliber.

Thanks for the consideration,
Eric

RC20 · January 16, 2014, 05:14 PM

A live cartridge is no more dangerous than a rock.

If its really an issue then go to any Gun shop and get Azzu snap caps (none in 22 but then.....)

Not sure why anyone would want to encourage a university in that regard, I would suggest to them they get out of the animal management business.

Brian Pfleuger · January 16, 2014, 05:19 PM

I would recommend snap caps.

g.willikers · January 16, 2014, 05:58 PM

Whittle some out of wood?
Seriously, it shouldn't be hard to make wooden rounds from dowels.

bedbugbilly · January 17, 2014, 11:56 AM

Hmmm . . . I really don't think the OP is asking for the "world" here. In today's world, I'm sure some of his students have no concept between what a 22LR looks like and weighs when compared to a larger cartridge, whether it be a 38 spl or a 30-30.

If you would re-read his post . . . he is talking about such things as "weight". I can't think of a better teaching aide that a loaded inert round so the students can actually handle them and feel the difference.

Yes, loaded rounds are perfectly safe but some of you have no idea of what the frustration is in dealing with an educational institution that is supposed to be "teaching" its students yet has all sorts of rules concerning such things as the OP is worried about in terms of actual live ammunition.

Everyone on this forum is here because we shoot and reload - and pretty much have the knowledge to do so. But, don't forget that everyone was a "beginner" once. The OP is trying to teach his students about such things that are possibly going to be applied once his students get out in the field. If a student has no idea about ammunition and such, just imagine someone trying to put down a large cow with a 22 short because they have no concept on how heavy a bullet and charge is needed to do it humanely. The best way to teach this is by actual "hands on" - if there is a reason that live rounds can't be used, then inert are the next best thing.

Or, think of it this way. The next time one of you needs surgery, maybe you'd be comfortable on having it performed by a new surgeon who learned how to "cut" and learned his "anatomy" on a wooden dummy?

Eric - I'm in AZ right now and all of my reloading stuff is back at my home in MI and I won't be back there for several months - otherwise I'd be more than happy to load you up some dummy rounds for teaching aides. There are a lot of folks on here who reload and hopefully some will be able to help you out. I don't think your request is out of line at all and I hope some will step up to the plate and give you a variety so you have a good selection of calibers. Good luck to you!

Brian Pfleuger · January 17, 2014, 12:06 PM

Well, a 22LR empty is a smidge complicated to make. You'd have to pull the bullet from a live round and seat it in a fired case.

Besides which, I think the scenario of one of these students going out to shoot a cow and "choosing" a 22 short is a bit more than a stretch. First, it would be like winning the lottery to have no idea what you're doing and end up buying a gun chambered for 22 short say nothing of locating the ammo just by dumb luck.

Second, in all likelihood, they're going to be issued some sort of firearm by their agency or if they're self employed they will have the knowledge to know better. Giving them that knowledge requires no more than "Just remember, all cartridges are not the same, you'll need to know what is appropriate for your circumstance." A diagram would be sufficient to show the differences.

I see no reason whatsoever that snap caps don't provide the visualization necessary.

If somebody, or a few somebodies, want to load up dummy rounds and send them, more power to you but I see it as a logistically complicated, time consuming solution for a simple problem.

Pahoo · January 17, 2014, 12:17 PM

There are companies that make "dummy" rounds or, you can have someone make some for you. Snap caps are fine but not realistic and made that way.
Big/Google; Dummy Rounds or; http://www.stactionpro.com/action-tr...ounds-c-1.html

Quote:

Emergency Animal Management course at a university.

I see, how it reads but not understanding of what this course is teaching. ..

Be Safe !!!

buck460XVR · January 17, 2014, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pahoo:

I see, how it reads but not understanding of what this course is teaching. ..

Odds are it concerns domestic livestock and is taught in a Ag related major. Growin' up on a farm, puttin' down injured animals, whether they be chickens or cows was something that was not always done by the local Vet. Humane euthanasia many times depended on what we had on hand. We were fortunate we were a family of hunters and had the tools and knowledge to do so. Don't think this applies to everyone out there today.

DoesItGoBang · January 17, 2014, 01:48 PM

I would suggest dummy rounds used by gunsmiths. Brownell's has a nice selection.
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-to...mies/index.htm

Other suppliers should carry like products.

Your choice of style, color, or realism.

DoesItGoBang

Marco Califo · January 18, 2014, 12:15 PM

Many Universities conduct research using all manner of live animals. My brother worked in such a capacity caring for animals that often had electrodes in their heads. Big apes on the warpath are nothing to laugh at. That same brother also was issued a 30-06 in grad school (wildlife management) for bears etc in "lab work" in national forests.

Scimmia · January 18, 2014, 12:48 PM

As Brian Pfleuger says, the big problem here is the rimfires. Brownells has 22lr dummies atleast, but no 22 shorts.

It's easy to make dummy centerfires and I'm sure someone here would do it for you; hell, if you tell us where you are, someone local might take care of it and not have to deal with shipping.

What all are you looking for? Autoloader pistol? Revolver? High power rifle?

Gabe1519 · January 18, 2014, 06:29 PM

This might be an expensive lesson to teach if you have to go out and buy the bullets yourself as the sporting goods stores will not sell single bullets, much less have .22LR on hand. It might be easier to ask someone to ship over the projectiles of choice (.22LR, .45, .223, .270, .308, .50 BMG) and then discuss the standard velocities of each caliber and the recommended use of each on a particular animal.

You might also want to show them ballistics gel videos of each cartridge to give them an idea of how each bullet performs upon impact. Then discuss the recommended application for each cartridge; .22LR for squirrel, .223 for coyote and small hogs, .270 for white tail, .50 BMG for wooly mammoths. Not sure how to make it much more exciting than that except to take them to a shooting range.

One last suggestion would be to have a guest speaker/expert come in (preferably not from your local academy or gun store) and have them bring a few intert rounds with them and discuss the applications of each. A local rancher would probably be considered an expert more than your local gun store employee.

RC20 · January 18, 2014, 07:25 PM

I agree with the following and note its Newbie post and no follow up.

So we make up rounds of "common" calibers and send to him. I can think of something around 15. Anything from putting down a Gerbil to an Elephant.

As noted dummy 22s are? Azma snap caps would work, who care if the weight is right and does anyone really think that someone who has never shot a 223 is going to load one up and down an animal?

If you know how to shoot then you know what one feels like.
If you don't whats that going to tell you let alone how to use it?.

I am just not buying it and lack of response suggests?

Quote:

Well, a 22LR empty is a smidge complicated to make. You'd have to pull the bullet from a live round and seat it in a fired case.

Besides which, I think the scenario of one of these students going out to shoot a cow and "choosing" a 22 short is a bit more than a stretch. First, it would be like winning the lottery to have no idea what you're doing and end up buying a gun chambered for 22 short say nothing of locating the ammo just by dumb luck.

Second, in all likelihood, they're going to be issued some sort of firearm by their agency or if they're self employed they will have the knowledge to know better. Giving them that knowledge requires no more than "Just remember, all cartridges are not the same, you'll need to know what is appropriate for your circumstance." A diagram would be sufficient to show the differences.

I see no reason whatsoever that snap caps don't provide the visualization necessary.

If somebody, or a few somebodies, want to load up dummy rounds and send them, more power to you but I see it as a logistically complicated, time consuming solution for a simple problem.

erbenson · January 28, 2014, 12:06 PM

I'll follow up with details and answers for some of the questions posed.

For the emergency animal management course, it's a junior/senior level animal science course. The course covers everything from foreign animal diseases through weather, structural collapses and similar. Key areas in the course include surveillance, quarantine, vaccination, euthanasia / depopulation, disposal, and disinfection. The students dealt well with issues associated with ethical and moral issues of the class.

I've been involved in the euthanasia end for several years, in particular with respect to commercial poultry in the event of structural failure or disease.

In particular for medium to large animal, firearms are one of the more commonly recommended euthanasia techniques, in particular in the field. I included a basic discussion on the use of firearms. In reading answers through the semester, I don't think most of the students had a real feel for the differences between the different types of ammunition.

I agree that the easiest thing would be to bring in half a dozen live rounds. I don't disagree with it, I'd prefer to do that. I work at a university and know exactly how it would be perceived. Perception versus reality is a scary thing.

I have some empties, which at least lets them see the difference between a .308 and a .38. Ideally, I would have .22 LR, 9 mm, .38, .45, .223, .308, and similar. Obviously open to other calibers, but this would at least show the concept. I will probably buy the .22 LR dummies from Brownells, http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-to...prod40858.aspx.

-Eric

erbenson · January 28, 2014, 12:07 PM

Gabe - your comment made me think... wonder if any of the reloading companies would donate individual bullets?

Pahoo · January 28, 2014, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Gabe - your comment made me think... wonder if any of the reloading companies would donate individual bullets?

In the past, for our classroom sessions, we had a very nice variety "Dummies", from .22short to 7mm Mag. They were manufactured by Winchester. There might be an outside chance that they still make them available. ....

Be Safe !!!

January 16, 2014, 04:40 PM	#1
erbenson Junior Member Join Date: January 16, 2014 Posts: 3	Help With Emergency Animal Management Course Hi - I have been a handgun shooter for a number of years and now teach an Emergency Animal Management course at a university. One part of the course touches on euthanasia and part of this includes the use of firearms. The students in the course come from a variety of backgrounds and in general, when one says ".22 LR" or ".223", they don't have a feel for the difference in terms of bullet weight or similar. I would like for them to be able to hold an inert round of some of the major types. Given that it's a litigation adverse university, I don't want to hand out live ammunition. Would anyone be willing to make a few inert rounds for some of the common calibers? Would only need a one or two of any given caliber. Thanks for the consideration, Eric

January 16, 2014, 05:19 PM	#3
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	I would recommend snap caps. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

January 16, 2014, 05:58 PM	#4
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Whittle some out of wood? Seriously, it shouldn't be hard to make wooden rounds from dowels. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

January 17, 2014, 11:56 AM	#5
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	Hmmm . . . I really don't think the OP is asking for the "world" here. In today's world, I'm sure some of his students have no concept between what a 22LR looks like and weighs when compared to a larger cartridge, whether it be a 38 spl or a 30-30. If you would re-read his post . . . he is talking about such things as "weight". I can't think of a better teaching aide that a loaded inert round so the students can actually handle them and feel the difference. Yes, loaded rounds are perfectly safe but some of you have no idea of what the frustration is in dealing with an educational institution that is supposed to be "teaching" its students yet has all sorts of rules concerning such things as the OP is worried about in terms of actual live ammunition. Everyone on this forum is here because we shoot and reload - and pretty much have the knowledge to do so. But, don't forget that everyone was a "beginner" once. The OP is trying to teach his students about such things that are possibly going to be applied once his students get out in the field. If a student has no idea about ammunition and such, just imagine someone trying to put down a large cow with a 22 short because they have no concept on how heavy a bullet and charge is needed to do it humanely. The best way to teach this is by actual "hands on" - if there is a reason that live rounds can't be used, then inert are the next best thing. Or, think of it this way. The next time one of you needs surgery, maybe you'd be comfortable on having it performed by a new surgeon who learned how to "cut" and learned his "anatomy" on a wooden dummy? Eric - I'm in AZ right now and all of my reloading stuff is back at my home in MI and I won't be back there for several months - otherwise I'd be more than happy to load you up some dummy rounds for teaching aides. There are a lot of folks on here who reload and hopefully some will be able to help you out. I don't think your request is out of line at all and I hope some will step up to the plate and give you a variety so you have a good selection of calibers. Good luck to you! __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

January 17, 2014, 12:06 PM	#6
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Well, a 22LR empty is a smidge complicated to make. You'd have to pull the bullet from a live round and seat it in a fired case. Besides which, I think the scenario of one of these students going out to shoot a cow and "choosing" a 22 short is a bit more than a stretch. First, it would be like winning the lottery to have no idea what you're doing and end up buying a gun chambered for 22 short say nothing of locating the ammo just by dumb luck. Second, in all likelihood, they're going to be issued some sort of firearm by their agency or if they're self employed they will have the knowledge to know better. Giving them that knowledge requires no more than "Just remember, all cartridges are not the same, you'll need to know what is appropriate for your circumstance." A diagram would be sufficient to show the differences. I see no reason whatsoever that snap caps don't provide the visualization necessary. If somebody, or a few somebodies, want to load up dummy rounds and send them, more power to you but I see it as a logistically complicated, time consuming solution for a simple problem. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

January 16, 2014, 05:14 PM	#2
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	A live cartridge is no more dangerous than a rock. If its really an issue then go to any Gun shop and get Azzu snap caps (none in 22 but then.....) Not sure why anyone would want to encourage a university in that regard, I would suggest to them they get out of the animal management business.

January 17, 2014, 01:48 PM	#9
DoesItGoBang Junior Member Join Date: January 7, 2012 Posts: 7	I would suggest dummy rounds used by gunsmiths. Brownell's has a nice selection. http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-to...mies/index.htm Other suppliers should carry like products. Your choice of style, color, or realism. DoesItGoBang

January 18, 2014, 12:15 PM	#10
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,598	Many Universities conduct research using all manner of live animals. My brother worked in such a capacity caring for animals that often had electrodes in their heads. Big apes on the warpath are nothing to laugh at. That same brother also was issued a 30-06 in grad school (wildlife management) for bears etc in "lab work" in national forests. __________________ ............

January 18, 2014, 12:48 PM	#11
Scimmia Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2011 Location: Eastern IA Posts: 428	As Brian Pfleuger says, the big problem here is the rimfires. Brownells has 22lr dummies atleast, but no 22 shorts. It's easy to make dummy centerfires and I'm sure someone here would do it for you; hell, if you tell us where you are, someone local might take care of it and not have to deal with shipping. What all are you looking for? Autoloader pistol? Revolver? High power rifle?

January 18, 2014, 06:29 PM	#12
Gabe1519 Member Join Date: December 10, 2013 Location: Houston/College Station Posts: 38	This might be an expensive lesson to teach if you have to go out and buy the bullets yourself as the sporting goods stores will not sell single bullets, much less have .22LR on hand. It might be easier to ask someone to ship over the projectiles of choice (.22LR, .45, .223, .270, .308, .50 BMG) and then discuss the standard velocities of each caliber and the recommended use of each on a particular animal. You might also want to show them ballistics gel videos of each cartridge to give them an idea of how each bullet performs upon impact. Then discuss the recommended application for each cartridge; .22LR for squirrel, .223 for coyote and small hogs, .270 for white tail, .50 BMG for wooly mammoths. Not sure how to make it much more exciting than that except to take them to a shooting range. One last suggestion would be to have a guest speaker/expert come in (preferably not from your local academy or gun store) and have them bring a few intert rounds with them and discuss the applications of each. A local rancher would probably be considered an expert more than your local gun store employee. Last edited by Gabe1519; January 18, 2014 at 06:34 PM.

January 28, 2014, 12:06 PM	#14
erbenson Junior Member Join Date: January 16, 2014 Posts: 3	I'll follow up with details and answers for some of the questions posed. For the emergency animal management course, it's a junior/senior level animal science course. The course covers everything from foreign animal diseases through weather, structural collapses and similar. Key areas in the course include surveillance, quarantine, vaccination, euthanasia / depopulation, disposal, and disinfection. The students dealt well with issues associated with ethical and moral issues of the class. I've been involved in the euthanasia end for several years, in particular with respect to commercial poultry in the event of structural failure or disease. In particular for medium to large animal, firearms are one of the more commonly recommended euthanasia techniques, in particular in the field. I included a basic discussion on the use of firearms. In reading answers through the semester, I don't think most of the students had a real feel for the differences between the different types of ammunition. I agree that the easiest thing would be to bring in half a dozen live rounds. I don't disagree with it, I'd prefer to do that. I work at a university and know exactly how it would be perceived. Perception versus reality is a scary thing. I have some empties, which at least lets them see the difference between a .308 and a .38. Ideally, I would have .22 LR, 9 mm, .38, .45, .223, .308, and similar. Obviously open to other calibers, but this would at least show the concept. I will probably buy the .22 LR dummies from Brownells, http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-to...prod40858.aspx. -Eric

January 28, 2014, 12:07 PM	#15
erbenson Junior Member Join Date: January 16, 2014 Posts: 3	Follow up Gabe - your comment made me think... wonder if any of the reloading companies would donate individual bullets?