|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Search | Today's Posts | Mark Forums Read |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
January 12, 2013, 11:52 AM | #26 |
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
As mentioned, in California (and, I believe, some other States) pretty much all transfers must go through an FFL. I'm sure that there are illegal, fully private transfers, but I'm not sure that anyone knows how many.
I suspect that the level of voluntary compliance is quite high. It's not all that inconvenient, and most folks want to avoid the potential complications of participating in an illegal, felonious act. It will take two people willing to accept the risk to do an illegal transfer. How to catch people is law enforcement's problem. But I bet a few get caught by bragging about it on the Internet or to their buddies at the LGS or range (perhaps withing earshot of an LEO).
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
January 12, 2013, 12:10 PM | #27 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 26, 2009
Posts: 654
|
Biden's focus
Seems that Joe Biden is going to suggest universal backgound checks for all firearm sales. I'd like to know how this is supposed to work. Most private sales are between friends and familly. The only way this law could have any teeth is if all guns are registered first. That's pretty much a no starter for most folks.
The other focus is on high cap mags. I don't know if this will be a ban on new sales or an out right ban on their use. Last edited by dlb435; January 12, 2013 at 12:17 PM. |
January 12, 2013, 12:20 PM | #28 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 6, 2005
Posts: 775
|
If universal BG checks are the only thing...
...I could live with it. There are ways of implementing a program like this that could work, maybe. Where I draw the line is banning anything that a sane, law abiding citizen wants to own. Even this could be tweaked around the edges by requiring a BG check for purchasing magazines with a capacity of over 10 rounds, just don't ban high capacity magazines.
While we do need to keep firearms out of the hands of lunatics and criminals, what we don't need is an idiotic AWB like the previous one. Write your senators and representatives as well as the White House and do it now. I have done and doubled down on the White House by not only writing but calling. Of course I only talked to a volunteer but I let my views be known. I had to wait less than 4 minutes to talk to a real person. Please be polite and respectful and don't threaten an armed insurrection! |
January 12, 2013, 01:08 PM | #29 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
|
Rather than living with it, why don't you write your representatives, and donate to NRA-ILA, SAF, GOA, or your choice of RKBA groups?
I am appalled at the number of, "Well, I could live with..." threads and posts, lately. |
January 12, 2013, 01:34 PM | #30 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,064
|
Here's my bet - worth what you paid for it.
Biden: 1. Will not recommend an EBR ban. He will say that one is needed but it can't be done at this time. 2. Ban hicaps - knowing that that probably won't happen. Suggest that states do this. So NY can demand any that exist there (if they do) get mandatory turn in. Don't know the laws there but some states have grandfathered mags - so turn them in. 3. Tighten up mental health reporting on NICS. Some states screw this up. VA did for Cho, it is argued. Better funding would get support from all. Will go through. 4. NICS for all private sales - won't happen but recommended. NICS for private sales at gun shows - may happen. 5. Antiroyalty provisions in the Constitution will be waved and King Piers coronated at the Inauguration. We will see.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens |
January 12, 2013, 01:36 PM | #31 |
member
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 8,462
|
Yeah, personally, there is zero chance I am going to "live with" or support the same people who just announced that they can and should confiscate my lawfully owned firearms having an exact list of what I own in that regard.
|
January 12, 2013, 02:07 PM | #32 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 25, 2011
Posts: 1,755
|
Quote:
It would work because a majority of people are law abiding. This is not to say there wouldn't be people who, out of ignorance or misguided principle, would not obey the law, but they would be in the minority. An interesting consideration; If some sort of universal background check legislation were to pass, would it address and revise the current exemption for certain states' ccw permit(or similar such as the case of NE's purchase permit), create a legislative conflict(such as the legislation explicitly says all transfers, but doesn't create changes in the previous Brady language), or just leave it be. If left with the exemption, for permit holders...then presumably private sales could continue "unchecked" between permit holders as they are exempted. |
|
January 12, 2013, 02:25 PM | #33 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
|
I wonder how much apoplexy I could cause some of these folks by asking two questions:
1. Thoreau - conscientious objector, or tax evader? 2. Harriet Tubman - human rights hero, or smuggler? I strongly suspect that some of the antis who would tell us that if a law passes, then of course we must follow it, would not have applied the same rationales to war or slavery protestors. |
January 12, 2013, 02:32 PM | #34 |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 29, 2000
Location: Rupert, Idaho
Posts: 9,660
|
Threads merged that are talking about essentially the same thing: Gun Control via closing the "loophole."
|
January 12, 2013, 02:52 PM | #35 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 25, 2011
Posts: 1,755
|
While I understand what you're getting at Mleake. In the case of Thoreau, I think most would point out he did accept and understand the consequences of his decision to not pay taxes(going to jail). Also that his situation was not remedied by his objections being recognized as just, but by someone paying his taxes for him.
I'm not so sure that many of those who might object to universal background checks would be quite as willing to accept the consequences of their actions and be preferential that no remedy be rendered until their actions were determined just. Coincidentally, I also don't think they'd have volumes of well written prose describing their personal philosophies and reasoning for their conscientious objection. |
January 12, 2013, 05:13 PM | #36 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
|
I doubt that, too, but my point was about the hypocrisy of those who assume that if they like a law, it should apply, but thumbing one's nose at other laws is romantically heroic.
(FWIW, I approve of Harriet Tubman breaking the law, but I think Thoreau was a bit of a windbag.) |
January 12, 2013, 05:40 PM | #37 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 16, 2008
Posts: 1,184
|
If private sales were required to go through a dealer it would be up to the government to prove that you sold or purchased a gun in violation of the law.
You do not have to prove that you complied with the law. |
January 12, 2013, 06:10 PM | #38 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 25, 2011
Posts: 1,755
|
Quote:
Regardless of this, a law being difficult to enforce has never stopped the government from passing it anyway. |
|
January 12, 2013, 06:30 PM | #39 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 24, 2011
Posts: 730
|
Or like happened in Canada...you hold out, they extend the deadline, you hold out, they extend the deadline..then you finally get organized enough to elect someone (PM Harper) that campaigns on "ending the long gun registration as a waste of money".
If they actually try for a gun registraion program, you can point to Canada, it was originally supposed to cost $30 million...after several years of an ineffective registration program, when it had cost $3 Billion...it was finally canceled |
January 12, 2013, 10:21 PM | #40 | |
Staff
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 13,057
|
Quote:
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe |
|
January 12, 2013, 10:39 PM | #41 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 17, 2012
Posts: 106
|
I could live with it.
|
January 14, 2013, 01:44 PM | #42 |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 19, 2007
Location: Lago Vista TX
Posts: 2,425
|
Like pretty much every law, closing the so-called "gun show loophole" would depend on the cooperation of law-abiding citizens; don't see the Crips and Bloods dropping into an FFL to swap nines around ... short of registration of all guns, again dependant on citizens to comply, the only way 5-0 would know you got a gun without properly transferring it would be if you committed a crime with it and then got caught ... there aren't enough cells in the world to hold all the folks who would be in violation ...
And hoping Glenn is right ...
__________________
"The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants." Albert Camus |
January 14, 2013, 02:46 PM | #43 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 23, 2000
Posts: 1,185
|
Spent the morning listening to the Bloomberg academic get-together with them talking about studies on Brady Bill etc. Wasn't around if/when they got to AWB. They pointed out that the study showed no effect whatsoever; but this meant more gun control was needed.
The terminology they used was the "private sale loophole". |
January 14, 2013, 03:11 PM | #44 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,064
|
That was the conclusion from the now classic Koper and Roth study that showed no effect of the AWB.
The reasons it failed: 1. The ban only affected cosmetics and equally efficacious guns were continued to be produced - so the ban is stupid or tighten it up to whack all semis. 2. The existence stocks could supply any current level of criminality - so confiscate all guns and mags. Heard it at the conference where they presented it for the DOJ. Concluding we don't know if bans work as we really didn't ban and confiscate.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens |
January 14, 2013, 03:29 PM | #45 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 9,995
|
There was a year or two where I did a considerable amount of face to face trading. Buy a gun, shoot it for a while, see something I liked on a message board, trade.
Over and over again. I was able to familiarize myself with many guns and came out about even when it was all over with if you don't count cost of travel and search time. If I had to pay a transfer fee every time I traded I never would have been able to afford it. $30 a transfer around me now. Would have cost me hundreds of dollars more. Not to mention I would have had to get the person to meet me at an FFL during business hours, etc. What happens if they get a delay? Leave it with FFL? COme back in three days? What a nightmare. |
January 14, 2013, 03:32 PM | #46 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: December 25, 2001
Location: The Deepest Pacific NorthWet
Posts: 590
|
MLeake said
Quote:
__________________
Quote:
http://thecluemeter.blogspot.com/ Last edited by Frank Ettin; January 14, 2013 at 07:45 PM. Reason: delete slur |
||
January 14, 2013, 04:20 PM | #47 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 15, 2011
Posts: 1,405
|
Newly manufactured firearms get a paper trail attached at birth almost just like people. But in most states the trail ends shortly after sale to a authorized buyer. The FFL is required to make a check to verify that the buyer isn't a prohibited possessor and then the deal is done.
The only way to see that individuals follow the same requirements as FFL holders is to maintain the paper trail similar to a property deed or a vehicle title. But along with this you would have to retroactively require the registration of all firearms and we know what that fight will be like. In the end it's an empty gesture that will do nothing to "prevent" anyone from doing anything. As has been said, the criminal will break all the laws that stand in the way of getting what he wants. These laws prevent nothing more then masking the real causes of the problem and preventing rational people from taking positive steps to mitigate these causes. I am leaning toward the simple concept that our brains only function properly when the chemicals are right and balanced. The medical institutions of our country know this but are so proud and idealistic, or simply greedy, that they will not admit it and instead point ineffectual fingers at violent games and movies and of course, the Devil's tools. That's how I see it from my point of view.
__________________
Colt M1911, AR-15 | S&W Model 19, Model 27| SIG P238 | Berreta 85B Cheetah | Ruger Blackhawk .357MAG, Bearcat "Shopkeeper" .22LR| Remington Marine Magnum SP 12GA., Model 700 SPS .223 |
January 14, 2013, 04:25 PM | #48 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 23, 2000
Posts: 1,185
|
Full trail is a downpayment on registration (closing the sale loophole) which is downpayment on fees and confiscation in future. The FFL thing itself was a initially a big reach, now guns not sold through these federally licensed dealers is a "loophole".
The incremental nature of gun control in the US can be measured in terms of the effect of the late-game steps, not the meaningless controls it takes on the way there. |
January 14, 2013, 08:34 PM | #49 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 3, 2011
Location: Vernon AZ
Posts: 1,195
|
The kicker in the Feinstein proposal is requiring all existing "assault weapons" must be registered under the NFA.
What I see happening is that the vast majority of applicants will be found to be not eligible for some reason. At that time the weapon will be forfeited. It is a back door method of confiscating the grandfathered weapons. As a retired Army Officer whose duties involved threat assessments of terrorist, I wrote papers which detailed a variety of potential actions. These assignments make me a threat per DHS. Does this disqualify me from owning a grandfathered rifle? |
January 14, 2013, 10:16 PM | #50 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 20, 2012
Location: Sweet Home
Posts: 886
|
Quote:
__________________
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|