45/70factory 400grain, will they mushroom

[rbursek]

When hunting deer and bear, will they mushroom as they pass through the animal, or just keep there original diameter?
Bob

[PawPaw]

That depends on what they hit on their way through. Double-lung? Maybe not. Then again, they might. I wouldn't worry about it much. Even if they pass through without expanding, you've still got a .45 caliber hole all the way through the animal. With good shot placement, you'll find the animal very quickly.

[DPris]

Which bullet?
Softpoint, lead, hollowpoint?
Denis

[NoSecondBest]

You'll have a hard time finding out on a deer. They go right through and recovery would be rare. I'd "guess" that with factory jacketed ammo you won't get much mushrooming. They load them slow so the can be shot in the old trapdoors. I shot two deer last year with my 45-70 and the bullets passed through both animals and one was stem to stern. I've read that they pass through most buffalo so don't expect to find them inside an average deer. Like the other guy said, you get a 45 cal hole so it's already pretty big.

[pinetree]

Not enough info - cast, jacketed? I have used 300g Remington JHP for the past ten years (handloads). I have recovered one bullet and it expanded to about the width of a nickle. I tried Lever-Revolutions and it did not expand at all in the deer I shot. I'll save my money and keep reloading and use regular bullets.

I would stick with 300-350 for most hunting. 405g loaded stout, hurts to shoot. I really think it depends on what it hits - bone or muscle.

[Yankee Doodle]

It don't make no nevermind.
Goes something like this.
See deer/bear
Shoot deer/bear through both lungs.
Slowly amble up to dead critter.
Gut and remove from woods.
I have had the same results on wild boar & moose.
Good hunting.

[Kreyzhorse]

I've killed a few deer with 300gr Remingtons and I don't think they mushroomed much if at all.

To be honest, it doesn't really matter. That's a big round with some energy behind it. A good shoot will enter one side and come out the other. They will put an animal down very quickly.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Recently read of a 45/70 jacketed bullet that caused excessive meat damage.

Peronally, from my limited experience I'd forget the "J" bullet and go with a good cast boolit of 400+grains.

Just make sure the boolit has a LARGE meplat.

Everything I have read about boolits with large meplats seems to true as per their effectiveness in taking game animals.

My results with an Aug 1st elk, a very large and barren cow taken with a 465gr cast, with a muzzle velocity of 1600 - 1700 fps was truely AWESOME.

Wish I had started with cast boolit hunting years earlier!

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Edward429451]

Lyman makes a dandy 400 grain flat point mould that I have and has a nice wide meplat. Looks like a big Keith boolit. It's 2 for 2 but I didn't recover any boolits so have no idea if they mushroomed or not. 20/1

[TX Hunter]

I dont know, but I do know a Hog Hunter, that uses a 45 70 Lever Action Rifle, and he said it drops the big ones better than anything he has ever used.
This guy has killed alot of big hogs, so I believe him.
Then again, I dropped a pretty big sow, with one shot from a Ruger Single Six, .22 Mag. But that was at about 5 Yards, with a perfect shot between the eye and ear.

[mete]

Performance also depends on range . I use 300 gr factory jacketed ammo. Twice I took lung shots at about 50 yds -entry hole 2" ,exit hole 1" !!! Far too soft for my tastes. I've also had them fail to exit a deer. I then went to Win 300 Partition [ Nosler] which gave good expansion and great penetration.

[Big Shrek]

Half of it is a matter of taste...

I've got a 2008 Marlin 1895SBL, beautiful .45/70
I've also got a 1952 Marlin 336RC in .30-30

If I do my part, the 45.70 hits a deer, it falls over. Same for the .30-30
But I find myself carrying that old .30-30 more often...its only a pound lighter, which makes no difference to me...
its just got more Character

Something about carrying a rifle that old guys my grandpa's age carried...makes me feel a bit closer.

[Fullboar]

I just purchased a new Marlin 1895SBL (Stainless Big Loop) around 6 months ago, its got a 18.5" barrel (alot like the Marlin Guide Gun). I have shot at least 6 to 8 big boars from 70kgs (150lbs) to 100kgs (220lbs) using mostly 300grain Jacketed Hollow Points or Soft Points (Federal Power Shok, Winchester Power Points, Winchester Ballistic Silver Tips ect). Alot of the shots went through at least 1 shoulder and they just seem to blow through without expanding and these hogs are not a small animal. I have just been using factory ammo until I have enough cases to start reloading (I have about 250 to 300 now). I was thinking of looking at reloading these cases with a hand gun bullet with the hope they will work a bit better on medium game because at the moment my 308 does alot more damage and drops most hogs on the spot where as when I hit them with the 45 70 they usually go for a bit of a run (some even take 2 bullets).

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Fullboar,

First off, for the best reloads, it is best to use one brand of brass, and MUCH better yet to have the brass be all of one lot number.

That is not likely to happen if your buying factory loaded ammo. Brand could be the same, but doubtful as to the lot #.

I have seen loads with the same brand of cases, Remington in this case, show extreme pressure while load develpment test were being done, all because of the difference in the brass from lot to lot.

If you have a digital scales, it would be reasonably quick to weigh your brass and in that way avoid any overly thick cases that could run up your pressures beyond the safe levels.

Best to buy your brass in bulk, as many as possible of one lot#.

Then, If your using a good cast boolit with a large meplat, close to 400gr or more and shooting a reasonable load as per velocity, you won't need any expansion for a quick killing shot.

Be aware, that some of the factory, jacketed 45/70 loads have the rep. of opening up waaaay to fast and too much, causing lots of damage to the critter.

Can't really speak to that other then what I read, as I have only used cast boolits for hunting and can see no reason to change.

Keep em Coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Fullboar]

Hi Crusty

Yes I will only load 1 load (after I do some testing and find out what load that will be) into 1 brand of case for medium game (I have around 150 to 200 Federal cases). The next load will be my Big Game load and I will probably load up some Woodleigh 405 grain bullets into 1 brand, (that will be Winchester and I probably have around 50 to 100 of those). I have been reloading for a long time (my father taught me around 25 years ago) but thanks for your concern.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Sounds like your good to go, Fullboar.

Really something "talking" with someone way off in a place I'll never get anywhere close to.

I'd still recommend running the cases over a digital scale if you have one.

That one time with the Remington cases made a believer out of me. The cases were all the same as far as the eye could see. Same brand, same head stamp style etc. but needed some more cases to finish some load tests so went to the brass bucket and picked out the matching cases.

The pressures went WAY!!!!!!!! up with those "odd" cases. Clearly they were much thicker/heavier then those used in the rest of the test groups.

Have a great day!

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Al57]

This notion about consistently " ruining meat " with any rifle, 45-70 or not, if using a jacketed projectile is self inflicted nonsense if one is purposely aiming for front shoulders. Strive to place your round behind that front shoulder 4-6 inches and a third to half way up ( or compensated on quarting shots so the exit misses a shoulder ) and this wasting meat subject quicky becomes moot. Booboo shots can and do happen where a hunter will hit a shoulder by accident, but if he is trying for 1, he is deserving of what he gets. Even on quartering to and quartering away shots, shoulders getting hit in or out can and should be be avoided. Getting enough trigger time pre season comes into play here as does being familair with the anatomy of your game and limiting one's responsible outside range limitation in order to place those shots where they should be in the 1st place.
In 45-70 I use my proven handload of a 405 gr. Rem SP on top of 32.0 grs of IMR 4198 for right at 1350 FPS. It is a quick stopper, always leaves 2 holes and an obvious blood trail if hunting in heavy cover. Quarter size -golfball sized holes are the norm with the amount of ribs being hit the deciding factor. The pic attached is of a large doe taken last fall with the above said load. She was quartering away from me and what you see is the entrance side and the projectile exited about 4 " behind her port shoulder.

[44 AMP]

The Speer 400gr jacketed is designed to expand at normal .45-70 velocities. I can tell you from personal experience that if you drive them faster than that, they do expand, violently.

One deer shot with the bullet moving 17-1800fps opened up hugely and shed its jacket. But it did anchor the deer quite handily.

Drive them even faster (2100fps) like from a .458 WinMag, and they behave like varmint bullets, literally exploding on the first solid thing they hit.

The .45-70 made its reputation with cast lead bullets, that seldom expand to any degree. And it made its rep so well that it stayed in existance for a hundred years while many more "modern" rounds came and went.

It's still very popular today, even more so than it was a half century ago, for two basic reasons, one, modern rifles and loads have been developed to increase its performance, but mostly #2, that, even at its blackpowder "worst" (original load levels) it works, and works pretty damn well, at any range you can make good hits.

And that's its only drawback, the rainbow trajectory curve means YOU have to be a better shot to make long range hits. But if you can do it, the cartridge will perform.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Good one 44 AMP

AS per the quartering shots Al57, I took just such a shot on a very large and barren cow elk on Aug 1st of this year.

If I had done as you suggest, the boolit's path would have MUCH too far back. AS it was, the boolit traveled directly through the critter and was found under the hide just in front of the off side hind.

With your hold. It would have possibly clipped the near side lung, but from there would have been nothing more then a gut shot, possibly going on to impact the far side hind quarter. Not good!

The 465gr cast boolit did an awesome job, shedding only about 130 grains of wt. in it's fight with the near shoulder and one rib, before taking out one lobe of the lungs and going all the way though a very large and heavy paunch.

Was this my shot of choice, not at all, but it was the shot presented to me.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Al57]

Hi Coot. I may not have been as clear as I could have been on the angle shot you state. As I stated above, on a quartering to shot as you describe you have to compensate and place your shot on the inside of his front facing shoulder, not the outside, so your bullet still exits just behind the shoulder. It is a shot I too have been faced with several times and had to pull off. On these I get a good picture of just where that offside front leg is positioned under his trunk letting me know the angle & where to hold so that the exit will be just behind the off shoulder. Once done, you will spare both shoulders and not have to deal with gut shot / paunch shot critters which you say you ended up with. Regards.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Aaaaaaaah ha.

Got ya!

CDOC

[Al57]

LOL..No, if anything I got you if you comprehend what was said. Stay safe and best of luck in the field this fall.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Two deer tags, so hope to have some more cast boolits critters taken before the season ends about the first of Dec.

October 10th is the day for general elk/deer around here.

The Elk I took was in an early anterless season in a few units close by.

Outside the National Forest boundry and within one mile of a cultivated field.

Season started Aug. 1st and for me was over by 7:10am.

Apparently I was the first person to take a game animal here in Ideeeeho during the Fall 2011 season.

I tried to file my manditory harvest report later in the day after getting the elk taken care of and the game department could only take reports for the 2010 season.

Guess that kind of put a bee in their shorts, and they took my info after I made a couple of phone calls and sent them an "E" mail. Said they'd enter it for me when they got it up and running for the 2011 season.

Wasn't but a couple of days and they had it ready to take reports.

Guess they didn't figure anyone would tag out that early.

Oh, and just another thought, taking a critter inside the front shoulder on a quartering shot, -------------- probably should try for a bit higher and into the neck/down the spine!

Took a deer head on one time - center of chest - and the "J" boolit expansion pushed the rib tissues FULL of recently eaten grass. What a mess. Cut away all the ribs and tissue as it was just full of the green goo.

If hit higher, I'd loose some backstrap, but wouldn't have the mess to deal with.

Hope the big/heavy and slower cast boolit would not cause the same effect.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Sensai]

I don't remember the qoute exactly, but it went something like: "A 30 caliber may, or may not expand, but a 45 sure as heck ain't gonna shrink." It does a fine job at it's original diameter. I prefer 405 grain cast with a load of H4895. I don't like to give exact loads, because I think that you should work them up for your own rifle. 405 grain plinking and target loads using Trail Boss are fun, too.

[Al57]

Coot, I myself would pass every time on a down the spine shot. Too much precious tenderloin in peril. I'd either wait for it to turn or pass completely and wait for the next one that comes down the trail. As far as your head on, center of chest encounter, If you think you had a mess before, I would think it would be trumped using a heavy cast projectile. It will pass through paunch, guts and out his tailpipe at very least if perfectly head on & center chest and if angled slightly or if brisket bone diverts it ever so slightly you have a real chance of clipping some round on an inside rear quarter. That my friend would be one nasty field dress.

Sensai, I would wager your Trail Boss plinking loads would aptly fill a freezer given the chance .

The fellow in the attached picture was a quartering to me shot, felled with my 30-06 a few seasons ago. Both shoulders were perfectly intact, all meat saved including the oh so valuable heart & liver cuts. Regards.