Remington Converson Blows Up

kwhi43 · January 2, 2012, 01:11 PM

You all know about this don't you?
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=634394

Hawg · January 2, 2012, 01:21 PM

Yep, but why is the question.

Rifleman1776 · January 2, 2012, 01:40 PM

He used a .45 cal round in a .44 cal pistol.
If the bullet cannot get out the pressure has to go somewhere.
Also if they were hard lead they might not have made it through the forcing cone in a pistol that was designed for soft lead.
Naturally, I can't say for sure but that is IMHO.

Gatofeo · January 2, 2012, 01:47 PM

The idea of two bullets in one case, as a possible cause, is a revelation. I'm not sure if two 225 gr. bullets could be seated in a .45 Long Colt case without being noticed, but today's presses have good leverage and it might be possible.
Anyway, it's a revelation and a warning to keep your dies clean, especially with lead bullets and any kind of sticky lubricant, such as Alox.
Or it could have been a double charge of powder.
Mystifying. I hope the shooter can remove the rest of the cartridges to identify and weigh their powder.

It's not unheard of for reloaders to finish a batch, then pour the powder in their measure back into the wrong container, such as pouring Bullseye into a 2400 container. Later, he goes to reload with 2400 and pours the 2400/Bullseye mix into his powder measure, failing to notice the contamination.
This has happened more than once.
It's why, before I pour any powder into my powder measure, I place all other powder outside of my reach. Then I pour the intended powder into a Dixie cup and look it over. It's a moment of safety that could save you or your gun.

Hawg · January 2, 2012, 03:12 PM

Quote:

He used a .45 cal round in a .44 cal pistol.

.44 C&B has a .450 bore. .45 cast bullets are .452, no biggie

Old Grump · January 2, 2012, 05:04 PM

I'm betting over charged case.

Quote:

Bear Creek Supply 225 gn RNFP ahead of 5.3 grains of 700-X

Bet you a good cup of coffee that load was 10.6 grains or more, probably more. 6 grains is a maximum load.

mkk41 · January 2, 2012, 05:12 PM

If ya want a .45 Colt revolver , buy a .45 Colt revolver!

Newton24b · January 2, 2012, 07:15 PM

its a tricky thing this type of situation. used to have a photo of a blown up brss framed remington that had been loaded with bullseye powder instead of pyrodex...

the way the original post was listed, it sounded like one of the original 6 shot conversion cylinders where the chambers were slightly angled to allow the rims of all 6 cartridges not to interfere with eachother andmakeit a 3 shooter.

Hawg · January 2, 2012, 07:38 PM

This was a new cylinder. First shot out of it.

Cascade1911 · January 2, 2012, 08:22 PM

Quote:

.44 C&B has a .450 bore. .45 cast bullets are .452, no biggie

But you are still putting a .452 diameter bullet in a case designed for a .429 diameter bullet and then jamming it into the cylinder. I don't know anything about these conversions, maybe this is standard procedure, but the above just sounds wrong.

Tidewater_Kid · January 2, 2012, 08:23 PM

I have an R&D conversion in my 1858 and have fired countless rounds out of it. I'll bet on a double charged reload. I reload my own with Trail Boss these days and have never had a problem. Those cylinders are very well made.

TK

MJN77 · January 2, 2012, 08:51 PM

Quote:

But you are still putting a .452 diameter bullet in a case designed for a .429 diameter bullet and then jamming it into the cylinder

What are you talking about?? Where does a .429 case come in at? The cylinders are chambered for the .45 colt round, not a .44-40/special/magnum/russian(.429)

Quote:

I don't know anything about these conversions

I can see that. The standard size round ball used in a .44 C&B revolver is anywhere from .451 to .454. I use .457s in my dragoon .44s. This is why a C&B .44 is converted into a .45. The bore is the same. There is no problem with the conversion. He said he was using hand loads. My guess is, that is where the problem lies. These conversion cylinders have been around a long time and are quite popular. First time I have seen this type of thing happening.

freedom475 · January 2, 2012, 09:24 PM

Wish this wasn't being titled like this all over the net...

It has nothing to do with a conversions fault.

This was almost certainly caused by 2 bullets being loaded into the case...a double charge maybe..but his load was very light so even a double charge (of his load) probly wouldn't have done this.

I can't beleve how many people don't know that the "44" designation is NOT the same as the 44 (.429) of today...all of these Remingtons ARE 45's...NOT 44's

I just had a guy bring me a bunch of rounds (to reload) that he had been firing through his Rem conversion...when I looked at the cases they were all expanded clear out and I looked at the headstamp and they were 44mags!!!!!!!!!

Guess the "44" on the barrel confused him too..lol Good thing all that pressure just blew by or he could have had troubles.

MJN77 · January 2, 2012, 09:56 PM

On one forum, the owner of the gun in question speculated that the cause of the explosion could've been a small charge/large case detonation. One reason or another I would say the problem was with the loads.

teeroux · January 2, 2012, 10:08 PM

Quote:

But you are still putting a .452 diameter bullet in a case designed for a .429 diameter bullet and then jamming it into the cylinder.

As stated earlier 44 c&b is .45cal.

In the old black powder days folks measured things all kinds of differently. Some of it is still labeled weird like how .38 special and such isn't .38cal its actually .357cal.

wittzo · January 3, 2012, 02:27 AM

I bet he loaded it with 10.6 grains of powder, which is a double charge and easy to do.
You can't doublecharge blackpowder, it wants to be loaded to the rim.

deerslayer303 · January 3, 2012, 05:47 AM

"If ya want a .45 Colt revolver , buy a .45 Colt revolver!"

AMEN! I don't understand the point or purpose to the conversion, but each to his own

Cascade1911 · January 3, 2012, 08:29 AM

Thanks for the clarification. I did not realize the conversion was to a 45 colt cartridge. Made an incorrect assumption that a .44 C&B would be converted to 44 Special.

noelf2 · January 3, 2012, 01:49 PM

Quote:

"If ya want a .45 Colt revolver , buy a .45 Colt revolver!"

AMEN! I don't understand the point or purpose to the conversion, but each to his own

When you convert it to .45 Colt, it is a .45 Colt revolver. If the problem was a double charge or a double ball, this could happen to any .45 colt revolver whether converted or not. IMO it has nothing to do with the gun or cylinder, and everything to do with the cartridge. I load .45 Colt with BP, Pyrodex, or Trailboss to make sure that the odds of this happening to me are slim to none. Actually, I'm looking for a used conversion cylinder for a Uberti 1858. Anyone scared out of keeping theirs, please send me a message.

dlbarr · January 3, 2012, 10:39 PM

Gentlemen, I am new to the C&B revolver arena. I purchased inexpensively a '58 Rem brasser & '51 brasser on gunbroker. Can't remember which one I did this with, but I doubled-balled (inadvertently) one of the chambers over 18gr of 3f and just shot it out. It was no big deal and certainly didn't seem to cause any problem.

Perhaps I'm not paying attention to the details of this case, but what was the cause of this malfunction?

B.L.E. · January 3, 2012, 11:09 PM

Quote:

As stated earlier 44 c&b is .45cal.

In the old black powder days folks measured things all kinds of differently. Some of it is still labeled weird like how .38 special and such isn't .38cal its actually .357cal.

In those days, the nominal caliber was the diameter of the bore before the rifling grooves were cut. A .44 inch bore with grooves .006 deep made the groove diameter .452.

So, whether it's a ".44" or a ".45" depends on what you are measuring.

If you measured land to land instead of groove to groove, a Colt .45 actually is a .44 caliber gun.

Why the .38 Special is really a .357 and the .44 Special is really a .429 is a long story that involves a change over from heeled bullets to inside the case bullets.

For what it's worth, MODERN revolvers have been blown up with reloading mistakes with results closely resembling that of the Remington in the link.

**Aguila Blanca** · January 3, 2012, 11:51 PM

Quote:

For what it's worth, MODERN revolvers have been blown up with reloading mistakes with results closely resembling that of the Remington in the link.

I've seen photos of Ruger Blackhawks that blew up in exactly the same way. My guess is a double charge -- I don't buy the double bullet theory.

Previous explanations about diameter are correct. I used to have one of those .44 caliber 1858 Remington clones. The instructions with mine called for .454" lead balls. The bullet diameter for .45 Colt is .452". The conversions work Very well -- I've shot both the R&D type that was "featured" in this incident, as well as the competing Kirst conversion. It's just unfortunate that the conversion cylinders cost more than the guns.

wisoldguy · January 23, 2012, 08:32 PM

I had a somewhat similar experience several years ago. I had a new .223 rifle that I wanted to work up a load for. I found a load for some powder and bullets that I had on hand and decided to start with the minimum load lised in the reloading manual. At the range a couple of days later the first shot produced a much louder report, muzzle blast and significantly more recoil than expected. I also had gas blowback thru the pressure relief hole. Extraction was difficult and the primer was set back and was pierced. After doing some research my conclusion was the volume of that powder charge did not fill the case enough so that when the cartridge was laying flat as in the chamber of the rifle the powder was laying in the bottom of the case. So when the primer went off the spark ignighted the entire charge instead of a progressive ignition of the charge. In the original post he stated it was a minimum charge.

deerslayer303 · January 25, 2012, 04:28 AM

Quote:

When you convert it to .45 Colt, it is a .45 Colt revolver

NO, it isn't, Its a .45 cal REMINGTON Revolver

Andy Griffith · January 25, 2012, 01:44 PM

The problem was, he was loading to .45 Colt specs, when clearly .45 Long Colt loads should have been used.

*Ba dum ching*

January 2, 2012, 01:11 PM	#1
kwhi43 Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2008 Location: Kansas City Posts: 1,393	Remington Converson Blows Up You all know about this don't you? http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=634394

January 2, 2012, 01:47 PM	#4
Gatofeo Senior Member Join Date: October 1, 2004 Location: Remote Utah desert Posts: 224	The idea of two bullets in one case, as a possible cause, is a revelation. I'm not sure if two 225 gr. bullets could be seated in a .45 Long Colt case without being noticed, but today's presses have good leverage and it might be possible. Anyway, it's a revelation and a warning to keep your dies clean, especially with lead bullets and any kind of sticky lubricant, such as Alox. Or it could have been a double charge of powder. Mystifying. I hope the shooter can remove the rest of the cartridges to identify and weigh their powder. It's not unheard of for reloaders to finish a batch, then pour the powder in their measure back into the wrong container, such as pouring Bullseye into a 2400 container. Later, he goes to reload with 2400 and pours the 2400/Bullseye mix into his powder measure, failing to notice the contamination. This has happened more than once. It's why, before I pour any powder into my powder measure, I place all other powder outside of my reach. Then I pour the intended powder into a Dixie cup and look it over. It's a moment of safety that could save you or your gun. __________________ "And lo, did I see an ugly cat. Smoke. Brimstone. Holes in parchment. And this ugly cat was much amused." --- The Prophesies of Gatodamus (1503 - 1566)

January 2, 2012, 09:24 PM	#13
freedom475 Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2008 Location: Rocky Mountains of Montana Posts: 292	Wish this wasn't being titled like this all over the net... It has nothing to do with a conversions fault. This was almost certainly caused by 2 bullets being loaded into the case...a double charge maybe..but his load was very light so even a double charge (of his load) probly wouldn't have done this. I can't beleve how many people don't know that the "44" designation is NOT the same as the 44 (.429) of today...all of these Remingtons ARE 45's...NOT 44's I just had a guy bring me a bunch of rounds (to reload) that he had been firing through his Rem conversion...when I looked at the cases they were all expanded clear out and I looked at the headstamp and they were 44mags!!!!!!!!! Guess the "44" on the barrel confused him too..lol Good thing all that pressure just blew by or he could have had troubles. __________________ Maker of Horse Tack and Cowboy Gear. www.7xleather.com Mister, why do you carry a 45? "Cause Sam Colt don't make a 46."

January 2, 2012, 09:56 PM	#14
MJN77 Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2009 Location: on a hill in West Virginia Posts: 789	On one forum, the owner of the gun in question speculated that the cause of the explosion could've been a small charge/large case detonation. One reason or another I would say the problem was with the loads. Last edited by MJN77; January 2, 2012 at 10:01 PM.

January 23, 2012, 08:32 PM	#23
wisoldguy Junior Member Join Date: February 5, 2010 Posts: 11	different theory I had a somewhat similar experience several years ago. I had a new .223 rifle that I wanted to work up a load for. I found a load for some powder and bullets that I had on hand and decided to start with the minimum load lised in the reloading manual. At the range a couple of days later the first shot produced a much louder report, muzzle blast and significantly more recoil than expected. I also had gas blowback thru the pressure relief hole. Extraction was difficult and the primer was set back and was pierced. After doing some research my conclusion was the volume of that powder charge did not fill the case enough so that when the cartridge was laying flat as in the chamber of the rifle the powder was laying in the bottom of the case. So when the primer went off the spark ignighted the entire charge instead of a progressive ignition of the charge. In the original post he stated it was a minimum charge.

January 2, 2012, 01:21 PM	#2
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	Yep, but why is the question.

January 2, 2012, 01:40 PM	#3
Rifleman1776 Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,309	He used a .45 cal round in a .44 cal pistol. If the bullet cannot get out the pressure has to go somewhere. Also if they were hard lead they might not have made it through the forcing cone in a pistol that was designed for soft lead. Naturally, I can't say for sure but that is IMHO.

January 2, 2012, 05:12 PM	#7
mkk41 Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2004 Posts: 283	If ya want a .45 Colt revolver , buy a .45 Colt revolver!

January 2, 2012, 07:15 PM	#8
Newton24b Junior member Join Date: February 10, 2009 Posts: 974	its a tricky thing this type of situation. used to have a photo of a blown up brss framed remington that had been loaded with bullseye powder instead of pyrodex... the way the original post was listed, it sounded like one of the original 6 shot conversion cylinders where the chambers were slightly angled to allow the rims of all 6 cartridges not to interfere with eachother andmakeit a 3 shooter.

January 2, 2012, 07:38 PM	#9
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	This was a new cylinder. First shot out of it.

January 2, 2012, 08:23 PM	#11
Tidewater_Kid Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2005 Location: Alabama Posts: 925	I have an R&D conversion in my 1858 and have fired countless rounds out of it. I'll bet on a double charged reload. I reload my own with Trail Boss these days and have never had a problem. Those cylinders are very well made. TK

January 3, 2012, 02:27 AM	#16
wittzo Member Join Date: February 10, 2010 Posts: 95	I bet he loaded it with 10.6 grains of powder, which is a double charge and easy to do. You can't doublecharge blackpowder, it wants to be loaded to the rim.

January 3, 2012, 05:47 AM	#17
deerslayer303 Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2011 Location: Leesville SC Posts: 2,652	"If ya want a .45 Colt revolver , buy a .45 Colt revolver!" AMEN! I don't understand the point or purpose to the conversion, but each to his own

January 3, 2012, 08:29 AM	#18
Cascade1911 Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2011 Location: Dutchess County, NY Posts: 450	Thanks for the clarification. I did not realize the conversion was to a 45 colt cartridge. Made an incorrect assumption that a .44 C&B would be converted to 44 Special.

January 3, 2012, 10:39 PM	#20
dlbarr Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2011 Posts: 162	Gentlemen, I am new to the C&B revolver arena. I purchased inexpensively a '58 Rem brasser & '51 brasser on gunbroker. Can't remember which one I did this with, but I doubled-balled (inadvertently) one of the chambers over 18gr of 3f and just shot it out. It was no big deal and certainly didn't seem to cause any problem. Perhaps I'm not paying attention to the details of this case, but what was the cause of this malfunction?

January 25, 2012, 01:44 PM	#25
Andy Griffith Senior Member Join Date: May 14, 2009 Location: Macon Co. NC Posts: 591	The problem was, he was loading to .45 Colt specs, when clearly .45 Long Colt loads should have been used. Ba dum ching __________________ Barney Fife: "Nip it, nip it, nip it!" Andy Griffith:"Oh now Barn'...."