Shipping guns via Gun Shop?

[AirForceShooter]

Does your gunsmith have you do a 4473 for every gun?

AFS

[spacemanspiff]

To me, a transfer is a transfer is a transfer is a transfer.

Honestly, the entire effort of the gunshop that is completing whatever transfer you want, could be as little as entering the gun and your info into the log, or it could be going thru the effort of boxing it up and shipping it.
If the transfer was from a purchase and you need to complete the 4473 and have it called in to NICS, that does involve a little more effort.

Though after I learned how to do log entries and call NICS, from working part time at my once-favorite gunshop, I was often told to do my own log entry in their book for my transfers and to call NICS myself when making purchases.

[Bart Noir]

Considering NON FFL's must submit their packages at UPS or FED Hub not UPS store or Kinkos...

I've been shipping handguns back to manufacturers from my local Kinko's - FedEx shop. And the bill has been around $15 if I remember correctly, to include insurance. I did not send the fastest method, however.

The return from Kel-Tec cost me $21.21 (from Springfield it was free due to a recall) and I had to pick up both guns at the FedEx warehouse / shipping center. That was because I was not home to sign for them.

Damn near painless, folks. But then, I do not live in Massachusetts and am not scared to death of the onerous gun laws. Sorry Mastrogiacomo, just calling it like I see it.

Bart Noir

[WVsig]

I've been shipping handguns back to manufacturers from my local Kinko's - FedEx shop. And the bill has been around $15 if I remember correctly, to include insurance. I did not send the fastest method, however.

The return from Kel-Tec cost me $21.21 (from Springfield it was free due to a recall) and I had to pick up both guns at the FedEx warehouse / shipping center. That was because I was not home to sign for them.

Damn near painless, folks. But then, I do not live in Massachusetts and am not scared to death of the onerous gun laws. Sorry Mastrogiacomo, just calling it like I see it.

Bart Noir

Are you disclosing that it is a handgun/firearm? I can only assume not which is why they have accepted it and why they are not requiring you to ship it overnight. Also by using Kinkos you are using a 3rd party shipper not shipping directly which IIRC is also a violation of FedExs rules.

This will not be an issue unless you have to file an insurance claim. As soon as you say it was a gun and you did not follow the FedEx policy they will deny your claim.

You are breaking the rules of the common carrier FedEx at your own risk even if you do not know you are at risk.

http://www.fedex.com/us/freight/rule..._articles.html

Firearms

Carrier will transport and deliver firearms as defined by the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, between areas served in the U.S., but only between:

Licensed importers; licensed manufacturers; licensed dealers; licensed collectors; law enforcement agencies of the U.S.or any department or agency thereof; and law enforcement agencies of any state or any department, agency or political subdivisions thereof; or

Where not prohibited by local, state and federal law, from individuals to licensed importers, licensed manufacturers or licensed dealers (and return of same).

Carrier cannot ship or deliver firearms C.O.D.

Upon presenting the goods for shipment, the person tendering the shipment to Carrier is required to notify Carrier that the shipment contains a firearm. The outside of the package(s) must not be marked, labeled or otherwise identify that the package(s) contains a firearm.

The shipper and recipient must be of legal age as identified by applicable law.

The shipper and recipient are required to comply with all applicable government regulations and laws, including those pertaining to labeling. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives can provide assistance.

Carrier will transport small-arms ammunition when packed and labeled in compliance with local, state and federal law, and the Hazardous Materials section of this Service Guide. Ammunition is an explosive and must be shipped separately as hazardous materials. You agree not to ship loaded firearms or firearms with ammunition in the same package.

Once you inform them that there is a handgun in the box they will require overnight shipping and the cheapest option will be overnight saver if available.

[DPris]

WV is right.
Both FedEx & UPS require shipping from a hub, not a secondary location run & owned by non-company people who are contractors or licensees or hole-in-the-walls who accept packages for shipping through either shipper.

Both companies require that you advise their hub employees of the contents when you ship, and both (unless you're a big-enough-volume shipper to work out a separate deal) require expedited shipping.

If you violate their rules, they violate any insurance claim you might need to make on loss or damage.
Denis

[Snyper]

Does your gunsmith have you do a 4473 for every gun?

While you "can" have multiple guns on one form, it's really easier in some ways for the dealer to do one for each firearm.

[dogtown tom]

WVsig ......Also by using Kinkos you are using a 3rd party shipper not shipping directly which IIRC is also a violation of FedExs rules.

Kinkos? Where have you been the last ten years?

FedEx bought Kinkos in 2004 and renamed it FedEx Kinkos and in 2008 it became FedEx Office............and ALL are company owned, not a one is considered a "3rd party shipper".

[dogtown tom]

Snyper

While you "can" have multiple guns on one form, it's really easier in some ways for the dealer to do one for each firearm.

Name one of those ways it makes it easier.

[WVsig]

FedEx bought Kinkos in 2004 and renamed it FedEx Kinkos and in 2008 it became FedEx Office............and ALL are company owned, not a one is considered a "3rd party shipper".

If that is the case still does not change the fact he is not disclosing to the FedEx employee that he is shipping a firearm/handgun because they are not shipping it overnight for $15.

[DPris]

Nor does it change the fact that those side-stores are prohibited by FedEx policy from shipping firearms.
Denis

[dogtown tom]

WVsig

If that is the case still does not change the fact he is not disclosing to the FedEx employee that he is shipping a firearm/handgun because they are not shipping it overnight for $15.

No kidding.
I posted as much in the "How to ship firearms" sticky at the top of this sub forum.

DPris Nor does it change the fact that those side-stores are prohibited by FedEx policy from shipping firearms.
Denis

Really?
The FedEx shipping tariff is below. Where exactly does it prohibit using FedEx Office for the shipment of firearms?

Again, all FedEx Office (formerly FedEx Kinkos) are COMPANY OWNED. Not third party retailers. Not "side-stores" whatever that is.

UPS shipping tariff DOES prohibit using The UPS Store which are franchises (not company owned).

FedEx shipping tariff http://www.fedex.com/us/service-guid...und/index.html

Firearms
A.FedEx Express will transport and deliver firearms as defined by the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, between areas served in the U.S., but only between:
1.Licensed importers; licensed manufacturers; licensed dealers; licensed collectors; law enforcement agencies of the U.S. or any department or agency thereof; and law enforcement agencies of any state or any department, agency or political subdivisions thereof; or
2.Where not prohibited by local, state and federal law, from individuals to licensed importers, licensed manufacturers or licensed dealers (and return of same).

B.If your shipment contains firearms, select the Direct Signature Required or Adult Signature Required Delivery Signature Option, depending on the requirements of your shipment. See the Delivery Signature Options section for details. Firearms shipments are not eligible for signature release or indirect delivery.

C.Firearms must be shipped via FedEx Priority Overnight service. FedEx Express cannot ship or deliver firearms C.O.D. Firearms shipments cannot be placed in a FedEx Express Drop Box.

D.Upon presenting the package for shipment, the person tendering the shipment to FedEx Express is required to notify FedEx Express that the package contains a firearm. The outside of the package must not be marked, labeled or otherwise identify that the package contains a firearm.

E.The shipper and recipient must be of legal age as identified by applicable law.

F.The shipper and recipient are required to comply with all applicable government regulations and laws, including those pertaining to labeling. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives can provide assistance.

G.FedEx Express will transport ammunition when packed and labeled in compliance with local, state and federal law, and the Dangerous Goods section of this Service Guide. Ammunition is an explosive and must be shipped separately as dangerous goods. You agree not to ship loaded firearms or firearms with ammunition in the same package.

[Bart Noir]

does not change the fact he is not disclosing to the FedEx employee

Let me assure you that I fully disclosed to FedEx that I was shipping handguns. To do otherwise would be slightly illegal, I believe, and some of you are actually accusing me of that. Harrummph!

In fact, one employee helped to be re-wrap one of the pistols as my wrapping caused too much rattling around inside the box.

Bart Noir
Who has had nothing but good experiences interacting with FedEx employees. Way to go! [insert lack-of-sarcasm Smilie here]

[dogtown tom]

Bart Noir

Let me assure you that I fully disclosed to FedEx that I was shipping handguns. To do otherwise would be slightly illegal, I believe, and some of you are actually accusing me of that. Harrummph!

Failure to notify the common carrier is only illegal if you are shipping interstate to a nonlicensee. It is not illegal to ship to a licensed dealer without disclosing the contents.

In fact, one employee helped to be re-wrap one of the pistols as my wrapping caused too much rattling around inside the box.

Please understand that no UPS or FedEx employee can change or alter their shipping tariff........even if he says "Oh, it's okay we ship handguns Ground all the time!". While that's cheaper, if lost, stolen or damaged you wll get nothing on a claim. Why? Because the tariff says so.

[natman]

I thought an FFL didn't have to log in a firearm unless it was going to be in his possession overnight. They can't skip logging it in if you drop it off at noon and the FFL takes it to the post office at 4:00 p.m.?

Technically perhaps, but as a practical matter the FFL is going to log it in and log it out, if only to keep track of who the gun gets returned to once it comes back to the gunsmith.

[Snyper]

Name one of those ways it makes it easier.

If the gun is stolen, and you need a copy of a 4473 for proof of ownership. it's easier to find if it's the only one on the form

After the sale, when entering info into the A&D book, it's too easy to overlook a gun that doesn't have it's own form

[Tom Servo]

After the sale, when entering info into the A&D book, it's too easy to overlook a gun that doesn't have it's own form

I don't see how, unless a dealer is incredibly sloppy in his record-keeping. If I sell two or more handguns in a five-day period, I have to file a multiple sale report anyway. There's no real way to miss something like that.

[dogtown tom]

Snyper

If the gun is stolen, and you need a copy of a 4473 for proof of ownership.

A Form 4473 isn't "proof of ownership" in any way. Whoever told you that is ignorant of what a Form 4473 is or does. It is merely a record of a firearm transaction between a licensed dealer and a buyer. Surely you understand that a subsequent sale by the original buyer to another nonlicensee does not involve a 4473?

...it's easier to find if it's the only one on the form...

Horsehockey.
I transfer 2,000+ guns a year on about 1,700 Form 4473's..........that's 300 less 4473's to look through.
Multiple 4473's for the same transaction is the mark of an idiot dealer or a fool. Multiple 4473's for the same transaction are clearly not a best practice and only increase the opportunities for the dealer to make a mistake or omission. Heck, ATF even gives five spaces on the form and tells the dealer in plain English in the instructions to attach extra sheets as needed.

The Form 4473 instructions state:

...if more than five firearms are involved in a transaction, the information required by Section D, questions 26-30, must be provided for the additional firearms on a separate sheet of paper, which must be attached to the ATF Form 4473 covering the transaction....

Does that in any way sound like ATF wants the dealer to use five separate form 4473's???????

When ATF calls the dealer for a firearm trace, the dealer doesn't start by looking through his 4473's........that's bass akwards and would take longer. A dealer starts by looking in his bound book (record of acquisitions and dispositions). Once he finds the entry for the firearm (ATF will tell him the approximate date of acquisition from the previous FFL) the dealer merely looks at the date of transfer to the buyer, then finds the corresponding 4473. Guess what?............there's the firearm in question on line two! Amazingly it wasn't difficult at all.

I've yet to meet another FFL that wants to have MORE 4473's to keep on file for the next twenty years.

After the sale, when entering info into the A&D book, it's too easy to overlook a gun that doesn't have it's own form

Huh?
If that's "too easy to overlook" then you have no business being a licensed gun dealer.

Your IOI certainly would not overlook the missing disposition because there will be a big blank space where the dealer was supposed to enter the buyers name, NICS transaction number and the date of disposition.

[Snyper]

A Form 4473 isn't "proof of ownership" in any way. Whoever told you that is ignorant of what a Form 4473 is or does.

It's proof the person on the form bought the gun, so yes, it is accepted as proof of ownership for many purposes

Does that in any way sound like ATF wants the dealer to use five separate form 4473's??????

I don't recall saying anything about what the ATF wants

Maybe instead of calling me an idiot you should learn to read, since this is what I stated:

While you "can" have multiple guns on one form, it's really easier in some ways for the dealer to do one for each firearm.

When ATF calls the dealer for a firearm trace, the dealer doesn't start by looking through his 4473's........that's bass akwards and would take longer. A dealer starts by looking in his bound book (record of acquisitions and dispositions)

Once again, I never said anything about "ATF"

If a CUSTOMER needs a copy of a 4473 for insurance purposes, or to show police he owned the gun, you need to find the 4473 for that ONE gun.

Multiple 4473's for the same transaction are clearly not a best practice and only increase the opportunities for the dealer to make a mistake or omission

You can do your business any way you please
Others can also do the same, and your agreement isn't required

I don't see how, unless a dealer is incredibly sloppy in his record-keeping. If I sell two or more handguns in a five-day period, I have to file a multiple sale report anyway. There's no real way to miss something like that.

If it's rifles there are no other forms required.
Maybe you never make a mistake, but humans often do

I've yet to meet another FFL that wants to have MORE 4473's to keep on file for the next twenty years.

I'm quite certain you haven't met them all

[dogtown tom]

Snyper

It's proof the person on the form bought the gun, so yes, it is accepted as proof of ownership for many purposes

No, it isn't.
A 4473 does not show who paid for the firearm....only the person who RECEIVED the firearm. This time of year, it is very common for someone to buy a gun at Bud's (or other online dealer) and have it delivered to a relative or friend who lives in another state.

While YOU may have the belief that it's proof of ownership, ATF does not.
Funny, but I've yet to meet a dealer who gives a copy of the 4473 instead of a receipt when someone buys a gun.

I don't recall saying anything about what the ATF wants
Maybe instead of calling me an idiot you should learn to read, since this is what I stated:
Quote:
While you "can" have multiple guns on one form, it's really easier in some ways for the dealer to do one for each firearm.

Well..........first, you make an assumption that its easier for "the dealer" to do multiple 4473's. Clearly ACTUAL DEALERS disagree and more importantly ATF disagrees. And second, while YOU didn't mention ATF.......maybe you should have.

Once again, I never said anything about "ATF"

True, I'm sure that's because you aren't a dealer and don't know zip about the instruction on the Form 4473........that's the ATF Form 4473.

If a CUSTOMER needs a copy of a 4473 for insurance purposes, or to show police he owned the gun, you need to find the 4473 for that ONE gun.

And all that will show is that the transferee received that firearm from a licensed dealer on XX/XX/XXXX.............it doesn't mean the person currently owns the firearm.

You can do your business any way you please
Others can also do the same, and your agreement isn't required

True, but ATF is quite clear as to how to list ALL the firearms from a single transaction on ONE 4473. Seems to me my advice coincides with ATF instructions wouldn't you agree?

If it's rifles there are no other forms required.
Maybe you never make a mistake, but humans often do

That quote is from Tom Servo's post, not mine.
Are you aware that some states are required by ATF to report multiple sales of certain rifles? I live in one.

And I agree, humans do make mistakes, but your one gun per 4473 idea is the easiest way to make a mistake. Seriously, you expect a customer buying three guns to complete three 4473's? Come stand in a dealers shoes for an hour before you try and pass that off as a way to make things easier on the dealer.

I'm quite certain you haven't met them all

Well shoot....I thought common sense would be infectious. I suppose all those FFL's that want more 4473's are hiding in a closet.

Suppose you prove me wrong........can you find ONE FFL who wishes he had MORE 4473's to store for the next twenty years?