19th Century Colt Copies

Willie Sutton · February 8, 2013, 08:17 PM

Since we were on the subject of Belgian 1860 copies, to be precise the Centaur's...

What experience does anyone have with this category of contemporary
copy?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=328518322

I have to say that it's intriguing... contemplating seeing what these look like in the flesh.

Willie

.

pohill · February 8, 2013, 09:33 PM

They say this is a 6 shot, but it looks like 5 (the Pocket Navy was 5 shot). I don't think the Belgians made the 1862.
This gun has absolutely no marks at all? I'd stay clear of that one, at that price, with those wire brush marks.
Check this out:
http://www.marks4antiques.com/apa/PE....U5hz9hoK.dpbs

http://www.artfact.com/auction-lot/p...5-c-2c516605c2

** Sold for $572 (Garth's)

check this out from a year ago on THR: (sounds like the same gun with the countersunk wedge screw).
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i.../t-641413.html

Bootsie · February 9, 2013, 03:12 AM

No visible proof marks? Very strange for a Belgian Colt.
Bootsie

Willie Sutton · February 9, 2013, 09:36 AM

^^ I was using that particular auction as a generic example of the breed, not as one that I am planning to buy. Looking at it with a critical eye, it's pretty clear that it's a counterfeit.

I was just curious about any personal hands-on experience with 19th century contemporary copies of the Colt series. They must have been fairly common, and there must be examples remaining for collecting.

Willie

.

sltm1 · February 9, 2013, 11:05 AM

They come up occcasionally,here's one on GB now.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=328984009

woodnbow · February 9, 2013, 01:17 PM

Cool, ^^^^ pretty obviously a copy and the proportions are wrong here and there but it's a nice old gun in surprisingly good condition..

Newton24b · February 9, 2013, 05:57 PM

look up kyber pass or khyber pass copies on a search engine. that area of pakistan has always made interesting copies of european guns. ive seen photos of pass made colts that were bizarre...yet nice. example, a colt navy with a dragoon length cylinder. even seen khyber pass made smle enfields. complete duplications, just not the original quality.

Willie Sutton · February 9, 2013, 10:51 PM

Just FYI, I corresponded with the guy selling the "copy" that I started off the thread with, and we discussed the provenence of the piece. He bought it from an auction house with an appraisal showing it was reputed to be a 19th century Brevette copy, yet the double diamond of ASM was found on the butt... so he agrees that he was screwed and has in turn removed his auction. Nice enough guy, makes flintlocks from scratch, just was not knowlagable enough about this to avoid being taken to the cleaners.

Willie

.

Hawg · February 9, 2013, 11:49 PM

The double diamond is not ASM. AFAIK nobody knows who the manufacturer was that did use it.

Willie Sutton · February 10, 2013, 12:46 AM

^^ Clues?

Italian for sure?

Willie

.

pohill · February 10, 2013, 07:00 AM

What made him end the auction? Did he just realize it was a fake?

Willie Sutton · February 10, 2013, 09:20 AM

^^^ As I wrote, he and I corresponded and I offered the data and he made the decision that it was not properly represented. Our correspondance was very cordial and he was unsuspecting that he himself had been taken when he purchased it. He had bought it based on it's appraisal paperwork from the auction house he bought it from. The Italian makers markings was the final straw. He's a good guy, an old gunsmith that is now 87 years old, specializing in making and heat treating replacement parts for flintlock rifles. Civil War era stuff is "new" to him... this was news to him, but he diligently looking into the data that I sent him and came to his own conclusion.

He's unsure what he will do now with it. Still licking his wounds. Gratefully he paid about what he was asking, not a fortune for the lesson he learned.

Willie

.

Hawg · February 10, 2013, 09:34 AM

Quote:

He's unsure what he will do now with it. Still licking his wounds. Gratefully he paid about what he was asking, not a fortune for the lesson he learned.

Still a pretty expensive lesson but I guess the best lessons are.

February 8, 2013, 08:17 PM	#1
Willie Sutton Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2012 Posts: 1,066	19th Century Colt Copies Since we were on the subject of Belgian 1860 copies, to be precise the Centaur's... What experience does anyone have with this category of contemporary copy? http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=328518322 I have to say that it's intriguing... contemplating seeing what these look like in the flesh. Willie .

February 8, 2013, 09:33 PM	#2
pohill Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2005 Location: northeast Posts: 521	They say this is a 6 shot, but it looks like 5 (the Pocket Navy was 5 shot). I don't think the Belgians made the 1862. This gun has absolutely no marks at all? I'd stay clear of that one, at that price, with those wire brush marks. Check this out: http://www.marks4antiques.com/apa/PE....U5hz9hoK.dpbs http://www.artfact.com/auction-lot/p...5-c-2c516605c2 ** Sold for $572 (Garth's) check this out from a year ago on THR: (sounds like the same gun with the countersunk wedge screw). http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/i.../t-641413.html Last edited by pohill; February 8, 2013 at 10:01 PM.

February 9, 2013, 09:36 AM	#4
Willie Sutton Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2012 Posts: 1,066	^^ I was using that particular auction as a generic example of the breed, not as one that I am planning to buy. Looking at it with a critical eye, it's pretty clear that it's a counterfeit. I was just curious about any personal hands-on experience with 19th century contemporary copies of the Colt series. They must have been fairly common, and there must be examples remaining for collecting. Willie . Last edited by Willie Sutton; February 9, 2013 at 09:57 AM.

February 9, 2013, 03:12 AM	#3
Bootsie Senior Member Join Date: April 30, 2007 Location: Hofheim/Germany Posts: 102	No visible proof marks? Very strange for a Belgian Colt. Bootsie

February 9, 2013, 11:05 AM	#5
sltm1 Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2009 Location: Idaho Posts: 353	They come up occcasionally,here's one on GB now. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=328984009

February 9, 2013, 01:17 PM	#6
woodnbow Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2012 Posts: 190	Cool, ^^^^ pretty obviously a copy and the proportions are wrong here and there but it's a nice old gun in surprisingly good condition..

February 9, 2013, 05:57 PM	#7
Newton24b Junior member Join Date: February 10, 2009 Posts: 974	look up kyber pass or khyber pass copies on a search engine. that area of pakistan has always made interesting copies of european guns. ive seen photos of pass made colts that were bizarre...yet nice. example, a colt navy with a dragoon length cylinder. even seen khyber pass made smle enfields. complete duplications, just not the original quality.

February 9, 2013, 10:51 PM	#8
Willie Sutton Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2012 Posts: 1,066	Just FYI, I corresponded with the guy selling the "copy" that I started off the thread with, and we discussed the provenence of the piece. He bought it from an auction house with an appraisal showing it was reputed to be a 19th century Brevette copy, yet the double diamond of ASM was found on the butt... so he agrees that he was screwed and has in turn removed his auction. Nice enough guy, makes flintlocks from scratch, just was not knowlagable enough about this to avoid being taken to the cleaners. Willie .

February 9, 2013, 11:49 PM	#9
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	The double diamond is not ASM. AFAIK nobody knows who the manufacturer was that did use it.

February 10, 2013, 12:46 AM	#10
Willie Sutton Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2012 Posts: 1,066	^^ Clues? Italian for sure? Willie .

February 10, 2013, 07:00 AM	#11
pohill Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2005 Location: northeast Posts: 521	What made him end the auction? Did he just realize it was a fake?

February 10, 2013, 09:20 AM	#12
Willie Sutton Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2012 Posts: 1,066	^^^ As I wrote, he and I corresponded and I offered the data and he made the decision that it was not properly represented. Our correspondance was very cordial and he was unsuspecting that he himself had been taken when he purchased it. He had bought it based on it's appraisal paperwork from the auction house he bought it from. The Italian makers markings was the final straw. He's a good guy, an old gunsmith that is now 87 years old, specializing in making and heat treating replacement parts for flintlock rifles. Civil War era stuff is "new" to him... this was news to him, but he diligently looking into the data that I sent him and came to his own conclusion. He's unsure what he will do now with it. Still licking his wounds. Gratefully he paid about what he was asking, not a fortune for the lesson he learned. Willie .