Carry Incident help please

[New_Master]

Ok, as all of you kow places like best buy, costco, etc all ask you to hand them a receipt so they can check and make sure they did not charge you extra for something right ? lol


Anyhow,I figured I payed for an item, and I am now the legal owner of such item. there is a line 15 deep waiting to leave. This item was a $15 cd.

So I proceed to just walk out. well, midway to my car, a guy grabs me from behind. First reaction, guard the firearm and draw.

well, as all of this goes happens, we fall to the ground. I manage to get a hold of my firearm and draw on his face. luckily I noticed their outfit, and did not fire.


So the question is, what would have u done ? Also, I'm seriosuly considering assult charges on the employee and sueing the establishment at this point.

The local PD came, and they got a laugh out of it after the situation was diffused.

[Gazpacho]

If I got handled/tackled in a parking lot, I'd have probably done exactly the same thing. Check the laws in your state. Some placed allow employee pursuit, most don't. At the very least, you have a valid civil complaint.

[Person of Interest]

I assume this was a security person grabbing you?

They have the right to stop you and question you if theft is suspected. I doubt that they have a legal right to grab you with such force that you interpret the physical contact as an assault. Did the person ID himself verbally? Did he make any verbal commands to stop before grabbing you? Maybe he did and you didn't hear him? See the problem? If you try to make something of this it's your word against his and nobody will know for sure what really happened.

What damages have you suffered to justify a lawsuit? You must demonstrate damages to file suit.

Assault charges? What would be the purpose? Do you really want to spend weeks or months giving depositions and making court appearances? Does this sound like fun to you?

To me it sounds like a little overzealousnous on the part of the security person. You weren't injured, it didn't cost you any money, and you got a great story out of it. Sounds like a good day to me. I would walk away.

[atlctyslkr]

You're lucky. Cops may have tried to hit you with brandishing or who knows what else. I agree with you on the way those stores operate but when you really think about it, who do you think the law is going to back up? It's just not worth it to me. I don't want to shoot someone over a mistake in understanding.

[zamboxl]

i think u did the right thing, the whole checking ur receipt before u leave is a company policy, not a statue, or any other local ordinance. God i cant believe all this private organisaions acting like their policy is law, i would say sue, but u might wana do a little research about it first.

[paul s]

Thank God nothing happened, because if you had killed the guy you would be in jail facing murder charges. Don't be so quick to pull your gun, what are the odds of being attacked? Take a chill pill on all this Tatical carry/self defence bull****!

[zamboxl]

dude good thing he dint shoot him, but if someone grabs me / tackles me from behind, my first reaction is going to be self defence, not look around make sure there is a threat then draw, because if he would have hesitated and it was a thread well, u could only imagine. He did the right hing by being prepared, and showed what i bleive to be good training and situational awareness by not taking a blind shot at the guy.

[New_Master]

yeah but when someone assults you from behind, and taking you to the ground, what do you do...react. its training, nothing less. I thought my life was endanger.

one thing though is the kid (college fotball kid i'm sure wanting the front security position) never will do that again.

[New_Master]

p.s. I was dark and around 9pm at night if that adds to any input

[spacemanspiff]

situational awareness would have alerted you to someone on your six. maybe you would have heard the running footsteps approaching?

pardon my skepticism, but are we hearing the entire story? did the reciept checker say anything as you walked out the door? or were you not paying attention. usually if you try that they will yell at you to get back in the line to exit.

[BlueTrain]

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

[zamboxl]

spaceman, that is a good point but it also depends where he was, the ussual parking lots around here have alot of circling cars looking for spots, deisel engines, horns honking, and more horns honking, so he might not have heard someone yelling. However getting the whole story thing is a good point.

[rellascout]

situational awareness would have alerted you to someone on your six. maybe you would have heard the running footsteps approaching?

I agree with that. Had you been aware of your surroundings you would have heard him comming and turned to meet the thread and identified who is was and the gun would have stayed in your holster where it belonged.

You were in their parking lot. In most states and in most instances this is still considered private property and the store is within its rights to attempt to detain even by physical means you leaving the property with what they believe to be stolen merchandise.

As others have pointed out most will not persue you outside a building because of the increased liability to their employees.

I am gald to hear no one was hurt but I do not think you have a criminal or civil suit here.

[XavierBreath]

Just curious New Master........ what state do you live in?

I cannot fault your actions, I was not there, and did not know what was going through your mind. If you say you were in fear, who am I to question that?

You owe the responding cops a well written thank you letter to go in their personel files for how they handled this situation. They could easily have sided with the in-store dick, and in fact, I'm surprised they did not. Most store security guys are on a first name basis with the police. That they did not haul you downtown for brandishing and assault with a deadly weapon is a credit to them. It could have ended very differently, and you need to consider that. You knew when you left the store without being "second checked" that there was a fair probability of having security follow you and try to detain you. The probability of security grabbing you in the parking lot was higher than a mugger at that point. If the reasonable man standard was applied to your actions, you might not pass the standard.

Hopefully the kid who tackled you will reconsider his actions, and the store will implement some training on how to better handle this type of situation. I am not saying what they did was right, or even OK. I disagree vehemently with this kind of harrassment. My point is, you owe those policemen big time. Make sure they know you appreciate how they handled the situation.

[Syntax360]

I would have probably done the same thing - I'm sure in your mind you legitimately thought you were being attacked. To me, that warrants every bit as much force as you responded with.

Regarding the whole "what are your odds of being attacked" thing - that's crap. If you were betting on the odds, you wouldn't ever need to carry a gun to begin with, as the vast majority of people who carry never need the thing.

Look on the bright side - bet that mall-ninja security gaurd won't make that mistake again

[rellascout]

The reactions here really surprise me. I personally need more clarification befoe I could say you acted properly.

As Spiffy said there is more to this story then is being told. I for one would like to know how much force was involved when this renta cop grabbed/assaulted you.

I cannot believe that so many are giving a ringing endorsements of handling of this incident without more facts.

[New_Master]

well, as i was alking back to my car, i was basically tackled. i have had some previous training, plus all the years of physical sports first thing I do as I fall to the ground is roll the shoulder. It happened so fast. But basically someone from behind grabbed me with force and pushing me forward, got me off balance going forward, as I secured the firearm on my strongside. then fell to the ground, was able to draw.

as for did i hear foot steps, oh u should have had eyes behind your head. well, u tell me, can u see everyone behind you 100% of the time as you walk to your car from the grocery store, walmart, etc. Did I hear anyone, no. Did I hear people yelling saying stop, no.

actually, even if on private property if they detain you, it can be unlawful especially if they did not find anything on you (i.e. stolen property).


should I wait in line, maybe....but I do not see a written agreemet to stop there as I enter the building. Is it their property ? Maybe, but a parking lot in a shopping center is public for most regards.

and lastly, whats the difference between being tackled and raped. If you are a female would you have drawn if you had been basically thrown to the ground ?

[XavierBreath]

I'm thinking it's a good thing there were no good samaritans with a CCW in the immediate vicinity.

Again, what state are you in?

[New_Master]

was in MN, now in Texas

[DWARREN123]

If tackled without warning, no matter where, I hope I could do as good as you. You reacted in, I think, the appropriate manner and made the correct choice on not firing.
I believe, at the least, they should call you and make amends.

[rellascout]

well, as i was alking back to my car, i was basically tackled. i have had some previous training, plus all the years of physical sports first thing I do as I fall to the ground is roll the shoulder. It happened so fast. But basically someone from behind grabbed me with force and pushing me forward, got me off balance going forward, as I secured the firearm on my strongside. then fell to the ground, was able to draw.

as for did i hear foot steps, oh u should have had eyes behind your head. well, u tell me, can u see everyone behind you 100% of the time as you walk to your car from the grocery store, walmart, etc. Did I hear anyone, no. Did I hear people yelling saying stop, no.

Here for the first time you describe in detail the extent of the force used against you. Thanks for the clarification.

To answer your question I do look behind me when I enter and exit vehicle & buildings especailly at night. Parking lots are a scary place where one can be killed by lots of things like on comming cars to muggers. No one said you have to have eyes in the back of your head. What people are saying is that if you carry you must be aware of your surroundings at all times. You claim to have a lot of training but you seem to have missed this part of the lesson.

actually, even if on private property if they detain you, it can be unlawful especially if they did not find anything on you (i.e. stolen property).

should I wait in line, maybe....but I do not see a written agreement to stop there as I enter the building. Is it their property ? Maybe, but a parking lot in a shopping center is public for most regards.

You broke to story policy and there were unforeseen consequences to your actions. Your actions started this chain of events and you now are looking to blame someone else for what went down. As you walked out with not following the proper procedure it never once dawned on you that they might do something. It never crossed your mind to look back and see if your actions had been noticed? At that point it seems reasonable that you might have glanced back behind you to see if anyone cared that you had left the store. Just a thought.

If you use the reasonable person standard if you left the store with merchandise in hand and did not have your receipt checked it is reasonable to believe that you are circumventing the policy for a reason. The most likely reason is because you have stolen something.

At that point the store has reasonable suspension and therefore the right to detain you on their property. The parking lot is not public property. It is not maintained by the state. Look around if you look closely you will see the signs. Private property, No state maintenance. Etc....This may vary by state.

and lastly, whats the difference between being tackled and raped. If you are a female would you have drawn if you had been basically thrown to the ground ?

I cannot even address this because it is such weak straw man argument.

As others have ask what state are you in? Different states have different laws. You seem really testy about this. You are getting all worked up by posts on the internet. I would hate to see your reactions in person. You posted here on this board I can only assume looking for validation of your righteous actions and instead have been meet with some common sense questions and doubts. I am sorry that some have not provided you what you were looking for.

My last piece of advice for you is too replay the innocent and think about what you could have done to avoid the situation all together and at the very least learn from the innocent so that you do not repeat it because next time the results might not be so positive for you or the other guy.

[New_Master]

Actually, my attorney just contacted the store and the employee. He is in the process of filing a civil suit against the store and employee, and is urgining me to file criminal action as well.

I'll keep the board updated as to the events.

[spacemanspiff]

1. was the person who tackled you the actual reciept checker? or a store security guard? plainclothes or uniformed?
these kinds of stores typically do not allow their employees to do this, even undercover store theft detectives cannot detain without having actual proof of a theft. suspicious is not enough. they can lie and say they saw you pocket something, and then justify it by saying you tossed whatever it was.

2. with that last part in mind, it is NOT unlawful for you to be detained, its the store detectives word against yours, as its been said in this thread already, you are fortunate that the responding police accepted your version.

3. your response was to immediately go to deadly force, before you could even evaluate the threat you were drawing down. before you could identify the persons uniform you were ready to fire. at that point, was your life endangered? was there a weapon leveled against your? was there a disparity of force? it might have been an old friend playing a prank on you. maybe a relative coming up to give you a bear hug. you drew down very prematurely, in my humble opinion.

and dont get your feathers all riled up over this type of criticism. it isnt meant as a flame, but to help you out for the next time you have this kind of thing happen.

again, you dont have to have eyes in the back of your head, a simple glance around every now and then suffices.

[bedula32]

I suppose the first time you go into a store and find you are expected to wait in line to exit you have every right to just walk out with your (now your) paid for property. Thing is once you know that is their policy a social contract to abide by it or accept some measure of negative consequences is created. You had every right not to shop there or did you not know that? I am a pretty hardcore libertarian and yet I cannot see how it is reasonable for you to pull your gun knowing full well someone might follow you out because of your refusal to do what you already knew was expected of you. Regardless of whether the guy snuck up and tackled you or not you need to accept that you at least played a role in instigating the situation. Don't like those policies don't shop there. This is why I had not set foot in a Fry's Electronics for years before I moved too far to even have the choice.

Walking out without waiting in line probably is not reasonable suspicion to warrant any type of detainment by the merchant. State laws vary but the standard for detainment is always pretty high and just thinking you might have something is not even close to being good enough. There needs to be some tangible, articulatable evidence you tried to steal something. Had you not drawn your gun you might have a decent lawsuit for battery and false arrest. Personally, I'd not pursue it before the DA gets wind of it and re-evaluates the possibility of criminal charges. You knew or should have known that was store security grabbing you. Right or wrong on their part (I say WRONG) you also crossed a big line yourself by drawing when you should have known some reaction might be forthcoming by store security for your conscious decision not to follow their store policies. I'm sure it is fine for most people to pull a gun just about any time someone tackles them without legal authority (or being understandably ignorant of legal authority) - that is so long as you did not instigate the situation in the first place. Sounds like the store security ridiculously overreacted and then you ridiculously overreacted even more. I'd cut my losses and be glad things went as well as they did.

[spacemanspiff]

criminal charges? for what? what law did they break?
civil suit? why? did that incident leave you emotionally scarred? has it left you so stressed out you are seeking punitive damages?