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Old November 3, 2009, 01:37 PM   #51
hkkilla
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Art, I used the term "Homeland Defense Rifles" because I dont like the term "Assault Rifles". Being that true assault rifles are select fire, it is not an accurate description of civy model semi autos. Yes, I think you are right that a well maintained rifle will do the job in any of the aformentioned models, but of those 3, the AK has the best record of reliable use when cleaning is not on the to-do list...
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Old November 3, 2009, 03:36 PM   #52
TrafficTech
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I own an AR,AK and an SKS
In a combat situation I'll stick with my AR but that's me its what I prefer.

Anatomy of a Bullet Wound
saxtech.eu/Zielwirkung/Frog.html


What will I grab in a home defense situation?
Stoeger 12ga.Coach Gun....
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Old November 3, 2009, 09:44 PM   #53
benny27
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Ar or Ak

I own a Bushmaster Ar and a Bulgarian Ak, and it's a really tough choice. If the shtf I would probably grab the AK simply for it's awesome power. I will have to say that I enjoy shooting the AR the best though. You really can't go wrong with either, but having an AK in your hands just makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside. I have literally cut trees down with my AK can't say that about the AR. The Ar's accuracy is also a force to be reckoned as well, so there you have it.
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Old November 4, 2009, 12:12 AM   #54
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We do kick this one around pretty regularly, don't we?

Both rifles have their good and bad points. Neither is perfect and neither is crap. The neat thing about this issue is that there is no issue.

In conflict resolution it is taught that one of the four kinds of fights is a "Taste" fight. You want to have vanilla ice cream and Momma wants chocolate. So you fight. There is plenty of room in the freezer for chocolate AND vanilla! Buy both and enjoy each for their strong points and put up with their bad qualities.

Whew! On to something else!

Flash
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Old November 4, 2009, 12:58 AM   #55
Teppo Sensei
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it should be 2 AKs or 1 AR15
you can have 2 or 3 AKs for the price of an AR15
i have 5 AKS 2AR15s $250-350AK $800-900AR
a .223 saiga with good ammo will shoot groups as good as a low end AR
a vepr will shoot even better
the cheapest saiga was $180 cheapest AR15 $650

Homeland Defense Rifles
under 100yds the 7.62x39mm is a better round & punches thru brick and block
when i turn 18 i spent $110 on a norinco SKS have not shot it in 10 years but i know it still works and i can hand it to a family member in a time of need

under 100m my nodak amd65 over 100m my hk91

did some1 say mini14?id rather have a keltec .223 and a saiga shoots better
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Old November 5, 2009, 08:07 AM   #56
Bartholomew Roberts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akfedor7
Another AR strong point that people often use is the modularity and accessories. I personally dont like all the rails, optics, etc. For SHTF that's just more technology to rely on that can fail. Batteries die, and all those slots, wires, protrusions are just something to snag on brush or other obstructions.
You know, I found the rest of your post well-reasoned, although I probably would not have reached the same conclusion. The quoted part above has me puzzled though...

You want to give up the advantage offered by modularity and optics because there is a remote possibility that the device may fail and then you'll be right back to where you already are (i.e. iron sights and no modularity)?

That doesn't make any sense to me... it is like saying, I don't want to take a car, it could get a flat tire and then I'll have to walk, so I'll just walk everywhere.
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Old November 6, 2009, 01:25 AM   #57
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lol. Good point Bart. You kinda got me there. Its probably just my old fashioned tendencies. I think even an AR without all the "goodies" on it looks so much better than an accessorized one. Kinda like a car/truck with chrome accents on every inch, curb feelers, etc.

But honestly I shouldn't let looks sway my decision on a rifle for SHTF situations.

Another reason I shy away from optics and such is that they aren't as sturdy as iron sights... can be knocked out of zero, more moving parts, possibly batteries, and fragile glass. Which like you say, with your flat tire scenario, wouldn't be the end of the world if it failed, but this is only if the iron sights are kept too. Often iron sights are removed to add optics, which would put you in trouble. And it would still be a detriment if you were practiced and familiar with optics and you were forced to transition back to iron sights in the heat of the moment.

Also, I dont know what the terrain is like in your area, but around here we often have cutovers with thick underbrush. Anytime I look at an AR(or even an AK as the trend seems to be turning to) with all the tactical foregrips, rails, lights, lasers, wires, optics, etc I see a nightmare of snagging on vines, briars, and other vegetation. This is the very reason I switched from compound bowhunting to traditional bowhunting.

I guess I'm just geared towards simplicity too much
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Old November 6, 2009, 01:45 AM   #58
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i bet my mini will out shoot your saiga,any day... dont underestimate the ole mini.teppo
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Old November 6, 2009, 10:02 AM   #59
Art Eatman
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After about eight years of being mostly gunless, I got back into shooting in 1961. Since then, I've yet to pick up any of my firearms which didn't reliably go Bang when I pulled the trigger. I've yet to own any firearm which would not shoot better than minute of head or torso at 100 yards and more. I don't think I've even SEEN such a horrible piece of garbage, including an old French Lebel carbine bring-back.

So that's why it seems to me that all this worry about ARs and AKs and all that is mostly mental masturbation, signifying danged little. And too many little old ladies with break-open single-shot 20-gauges have done pretty good at home defense for me to be unduly concerned.

Me, I'd focus more on scenario and tactics for my personal situation and work on the assumption that my choice of go-bang will go bang--as they always have. I'd rather be skilled with whatever I have instead of worrying about what I have.
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Old November 6, 2009, 11:08 AM   #60
akfedor7
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The main scenario I think of with the AK/AR arguement is for the longevity of the rifle for futuristic type scenarios such as if a ban on firearms ever happenend, or some type of apocolytic scenario, or a homeland invasion scenario.

Its fine if you say the AR works perfectly as long as its clean and maintained. I'll totally agree. But in the type situations I mentioned above, these luxuries may not be possible. If guns were ever totally banned, it might not be easy to get replacement parts... so the AR having more parts is a detriment because there would be more to break or wear out. Also, I think the ak would handle more rounds before wearing out, which again is very important in this situation

Also, in an apocalyptic or homeland invasion scenario you could be displaced from your home, on the run, hiding out, etc. This may not afford you access to all the right lubes, cleaners, tools, etc needed to keep the AR fully reliable. I think the AK is a lot less dependant on maintenance and cleaning.

So I'm basically saying that in MOST cases the AR is just as good as the AK, or perhaps even slightly better if depending on how much you value the accuracy difference. But I think the AK would be far superior in the WORST cases, that admitedly may never occur, but I'd much rather be safe than sorry.
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Old November 6, 2009, 12:02 PM   #61
collector rob
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I can't believe nobody has posted this.

"Humorous Comparison of an AK47, an AR15 and a Mosin"

http://www.mouseguns.com/compare.htm
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Old November 6, 2009, 01:43 PM   #62
bapfreak
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Age old question.

Depends on where you are and what you want to do.

Let me tell you that it is much easier to shoot an AR15 accurately than an AK47; especially with follow up shots.

FYI - AR15s can be bought in 7.62x39 and AK47 can be bought in .223 so the caliber argument is really moot.

AK47s function perfectly all the time.

BTY - How are suppose to practice marksmanship this day and age when ammo is at an all time high without 22LR. I really hate the centerfire snobs.
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Old November 6, 2009, 02:01 PM   #63
rdmallory
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Just shooting

AR15 Cheep ammo easy to take apart and work on.

Home defense.

Rather have my MAC10

More knock down power. Don't need to be making holes in neighbors front door.

Doug
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Old November 6, 2009, 06:27 PM   #64
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i have had experience with the sks, the ak, and the ar... currently reload and shoot the bushmaster .450 AR15 (a jaw dropping awesome weapon)...
the AR15 is a shooting system that is available in many calibers...if you want to play tag with a single caliber "flex barreled" piece of junk that "might shoot" the third world ammo that was produced for it, go forth young man!
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Old November 6, 2009, 06:49 PM   #65
JohnH1963
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A video is worth a thousand words.

Here is a video that compares the two directly. The conclusion was the M-16was more accurate however the the AK-47 has greater penetration.

In a close-quarters battle, I would like the weapon with greater penetration. If the enemy is hiding behind a wall, then I know with the AK47 its likely to go through the wall. The enemy can't hide behind the wall if bullets are going through it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6BpI3xD6h0

In regards to the M4/M16 jamming here is a good video of two soldiers in Iraq apparently test firing their weapon. Look how it jams up good:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBGwZHHq18o

Here is another video of the M4/M16 jamming several times on a range:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WVVXZtrxIs
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Old November 7, 2009, 01:30 AM   #66
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interesting videos...

Question... Has anyone ever tested AK vs AR head to head, in a reasonably scientific way? I would personally like to take several of each rifle and test them in some of the following ways:

Shoot rounds through them until one fails, with no cleaning.

Do the same as above with allowed cleaning, until one of them had a parts failure/breakage

Shoot both in various extreme situations such as heavy precipitation, extreme cold, after dropping in sand or mud, in a rust prone area such as near saltwater, etc

drop them both from a high distance onto a hard surface and see if any breakages occur
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Old December 7, 2009, 04:24 AM   #67
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Why not have both?



Theyre both great rifles. The AR is more accurate and much more pleasant to shoot. The AK (WASR) blatantly has attitude, and it throws a chunk of lead with WAY more power, about double the impact of the 5.556 if im not mistaken. I use em both for pig hunting. Which one i take along depends on my mood. I love em both.
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Old December 7, 2009, 08:29 AM   #68
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Quote:
by Art Eatman: So that's why it seems to me that all this worry about ARs and AKs and all that is mostly mental masturbation
you said it all. They all go bang. It is all about personal taste and budget. I have an S&W AR15. Love it. When funds are right i will get an AK. To me they are both works of art and worth appreciating. Like a 1911, M1 Garand, Win mod 94, Browning Auto-5, etc, etc.

I love the low recoil and shot repeatability of the AR. a full clip in a few seconds all in a nice tight group. Shoot all day (if you can afford it) as far as you can see without any fatigue. I have read the stories of soldiers complaining about knock down power and i believe them, but the round has won many battles.

For target shooting the AK and SKS is difficult for me to shoot due to muzzle lift and recoil. I must admit, i havent shot them alot at a range. But as someone mentioned early. i love shooting the AK for display of power. Any old computer monitors or cinder blocks within 50 yards better beware. I love seeing those cinder blocks explode when that 7.62 destroys it.

$.02
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Old December 7, 2009, 10:04 AM   #69
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well in my opinion if the bo bo hits the fan then i wouldent care wich rifle is around as long as i have something to shoot back whit i dont care! but many people say over an over the ak shots more bullets per second and the ar is more acurate. honestly in my opinion i like both rifles but i will sure buy the AR-15.

but still i am out of luck i live in california so i cant own neither of these rifles!
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Old December 7, 2009, 10:22 AM   #70
stubbicatt
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Oh No

Not again... How many times?
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Old December 7, 2009, 10:37 AM   #71
horatioo
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so how much would a good AK cost? If a lot of people cant agree which is better, is it pretty much believed that the AK is a better value?
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Old December 7, 2009, 11:00 AM   #72
Art Eatman
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If by "better value" you maybe mean equally useful performance for less money, then, okay, yeah, the AK might be the better value. But I see any semi-auto with a medium-power cartridge as being equally useful in meeting probable needs for defense.
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Old December 7, 2009, 12:44 PM   #73
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In my experience, wich isn't anything to brag on. In THIS thread I'll choose AK. i own an AK (but i will have the AR when $$ is more plentiful) a few friends have AR's one colt another bushmaster. both friends take care of there weapons the bushmaster man is a Iraq Vet. 2 tours. Colt guy is just a gun freak like me. We all went shooting about a year ago. we didnt shoot over 100 yds, just having good multiple target fun. The AR in everyones hands was the best at first. But after about 5 mags the bushmaster jammed and he couldn't get it fixed without breaking it down and toying with it for 10 or 15 minutes. AK rolled all day without slowing down. But the Colt did to. It had one ftf but we were shooting wolf and I let him slide Still cant wait to grab me an AR though
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Old December 7, 2009, 01:20 PM   #74
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AK bec that s the only one i rely in a SHTF scenario.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VmExQq2gWs

Last edited by chow chow; December 7, 2009 at 01:28 PM.
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Old December 7, 2009, 08:41 PM   #75
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Get both.

Saiga SGL-21 and Noveske N4 light

Last edited by RT; December 8, 2009 at 05:43 AM.
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