Different way to size .223 brass

[Sevens]

Please tell me what you think of this idea...

As I size my once-fired .223 brass, I find that it's not enjoyable. I don't mind lubing the cases with Imperial as I've always done... but it's a hassle lubing inside the case mouths. (I'm using fine powder mica and a q-tip)

I use the mica because I don't want to stress/stretch the case mouth any more than is necessary... truth is, I'm not sure if I need to. Does anyone else lube case mouths?

This brass is once-fired govt issued brass from Camp Perry, fired from GI M16A2 rifles.

After I've sized and loaded this stuff and fired them from my T/C Contender, I'm simply using my Lee Collet neck-only sizer to resize. No lube, no lubing necks. Really easy.

So then... here's my idea:
What if I pull the decap rod/neck size rod from my Lee full length sizer, and simply size the outside of the case -- and then later, use my Collet neck-only sizer to size the mouth?

Would you think there is there a problem going this route?

Let me know what you think.

[edward5759]

Not a bad idea at all.
I was talking to Mike Dillon several years age about an after market carbide expander ball that would fit RCBS ETC. I think he had enough to think about in his own line of products.

I use his 223 carbide die from Dillon and it still requires a little lube but it makes the job 75% easier on 223.

When I was loading a lot of 223, I would re size with the decap rod in place "no lube" it would scare a cat with the screech.
Then clean the cases ETC so they were dry, clean, and shinny.
I would remove the decap rod from a neck sizer die and bump the necks just before reloading.
Many ways to skin a cat!
hope you find yours.

Edward5759

[Scorch]

Might not work as you expect.

A regular sizing die squeezes the brass down so the neck ID is about .220", then pulls a .224" expander through the neck, and the springiness of the brass lets it rebound to .223". This will give proper neck tension to hold the bullet tightly. The sizer minus decapping rod will size the brass smaller than the desired .223" neck ID. The Collet die works differently, relying on the springiness of the brass to rebound after the neck is squeezed againt the .221"-.222" decapping rod. What this means is that your Collet Die decapper will be trying to expand the necks, and after it does they will all be undersized anyway.

Why don't you just try using a bore brush to put some Imperial Sizing Wax inside the neck of every 3rd or 4th case neck? That's what I do, it works.

[Sevens]

Ahhhh....
See, that's why I asked.

Good information here... thank you both.

[Sport45]

For the Contender there's no need to full length size every time. Just use the neck sizing die and only full length size every 5th time or so as needed.

That only applies to brass that has been fired in that Contender of course.

[Sevens]

Oh yeah, I know that for sure.
I'm just running through my once-fired stuff, that wasn't once-fired in my Contender.

All of the brass I've used for this handgun has come straight from the Viale range on Camp Perry, chucked by U.S. Gubbmint owned rifles.

[flashhole]

Redding makes a Body Size Die that does exactly what you described. It sizes the web and pushes the shoulder back but does not touch the neck. You can also hone the inside of the die in the neck area to get exactly the neck sizing you need or you can go to a Redding S Neck Sizing Die and buy the exact bushing you need for neck sizing or you can get a Redding S FL die and do both the body and neck at the same time.

[amamnn]

I use 2 of the above mentioned Redding body dies and 1 of the S dies. I also use 4 of Forster's bump/neck dies, which do most of what the redding body bump dies do and you can use a bushing to set neck tension at the same time. All these dies do slightly different jobs and you would want to be sure of exactly what you want the die to do before buying it.

I think the most versatile is the S die, which can be used for cartridges to be shot from ALL types of actions, but be aware that you will be FL sizing along with setting the neck, if you install a bushing, whereas the Forster bump/neck die only decaps, resets the shoulder and also the neck if you install a bushing, so it is suitable for bolt guns and some other single shots.

The Redding body bump die is really for shooters who have been neck sizing and then later found out that they are running pressures that expand the cases more quickly than they like. It adds a step in the sizing process because it does not decap.

The main reason I have 2 of the body dies is that I found out I needed small base dies for 2 cartridges I shoot after buying custom barrels. I was trying to avoid the expense of getting the S dies and all the bushings I might need to replace the Forsters I already had. The Redding dies (for some cartridges) are available in small base as S or body bumpers.

Since you should be brushing at least some of the carbon from the inside of the necks anyway, why not make the brushing and lubing with mica one operation? Forster makes a mica (or graphite) well/brush combo for that purpose--I believe Redding has a graphiter as well.

I might mention that some people consider the carbon to be all the lube needed--and some brush it out as much as they can and some try to clean it ALL out with ultrasonic cleaners or ceramic tumbler media or stainless steel BBs or acids or top oil and on and on and on. I have read opinions of 2 world champ short range BR shooters who just brush a little (they write books, these BR guys--some of them) attended a lecture by another world beater hall of famer BR guy who never brushes at all, and watched a local guy set two world records in short BR while brushing between relays --if he remembered to.............

I just always brush the necks of all rifle cases when I take them out of the tumbler, which is when I note on the box, how many firings and annealings the cases have had. I keep the brushes on the table in the living room where I deposit the boxes of tumbled cases. At some point soon after, I sit and brush while watching the idiot box, and boy are there a lot of idiots on that box,these days....................

[Charlie98]

I use some aerosol spray case lube I bought from Midway (something like 20 years ago...) and just line the cases up so some goes in the case mouths. Once they go through the die, I chuck them into the tumbler to remove the lube and clean them up prior to loading.

I suppose the stuff I'm using was determined to kill the Ozone because I don't see it offered any longer, but both Hornady and Lyman offer aerosol lubes, and everyone else pump-spray lube. Just a thought.

[PCJim]

I'm not reloading for a Contender, which I would presume would indicate you are into loading for some very accurate rounds. My .223 reloading is for feeding AR's. I don't find it necessary to lube the case mouths, and have not had any problem not doing so. This is using Lee dies.

[Sevens]

Actually, the lube for the case mouth isn't for extreme accuracy... it's meant to stretch the brass a little bit less, perhaps make the brass last a bit longer.

I don't know if it does.

The accuracy thing -- I've got that covered!
This rig is impressive.

[rodfac]

Sevens...I've tried it several ways in 50 yrs of reloading. I've come to believe that uniform case neck tension is of importance for accuracy...in bolt guns...and may result in a MOA of group size difference in my tests...I'd not bet my life on the results, however, and it may be a mental block on my part that lube left in the neck results in some sort of variable. Tumbling to get it out, adds another variable...in bottle necked cases, some of it sticks to the inside of the shoulder area, resulting in a smaller case capacity...and that's a pressure spike.

As indicated...in red on #7, this is what I use...most of the screech is gone, and cases measured before and after sizing using this method, show minimal add'l stretch due to the sizing method. For add'l discussion on the ins and outs of it, refer to Glen Zediker's excellent, "Handloading for Competition", a book well worth having, even if you don't compete. Lot's of technical discussion on the subject and all the high end tools as well.

As to what type of lube, for case body or mouth, I like Dillon's Spray for handguns, and the 5.56 mm. For bigger bottle neck cases, Imperial sizing wax, applied by finger tip is the Zoot Capri (a Zediker expression!).

Here are a few methods that I've tried over the years.

1. Using a lube pad...rotate the case, mouth down, so as to pick up just a hair of lube around the lip.
2. Using fingers as the applicator, for the main case body lubrication, walk the thumb over the open case mouth...works like #1 above, applying only a thin ring of lube to the mouth.
3. Using either an aerosol or pump spray lube, angle the line of cases so as to pick up a little bit on one side of the case mouth. By the time you've done 4 or five, the random placement of each case will have lubed the expander ball adequately to preclude the screech.
4. Motor mica, mixed with ultra small ball bearing shot...twirl the case mouth in this mixture...PITA...since the main body case lube invariably picks up one of the balls! Denting the case and possibly scoring the die.
5. Twirling the case on a #2 pencil...applies a line of graphite to the inner surface...OK but not great..still the occasional screech, but has the satisfaction of uniformly affecting bullet case neck tension.
6. Using a bore swab...the fluffy kind that's pretty well worn out...cleaning same in dishwasher or laundry (keep this secret, since discovery results in a massive a$$ chewing), then spraying the swab very lightly with lube. One spray lasts 20 cases or so.
7. Brushing out with a suitably sized nylon bore brush (no lube applied)...removes the carbon and primer fouling and pretty well eliminates the screech. Good if you're concerned with uniform case neck tension. I use this in addition to lightly smearing Imperial Sizing Wax to the main case body, ensuring that none gets to the shoulder or neck area...(results in a dented shoulder).

Long discussion, but as you can see, it's been a bugaboo for me for the entire time I've reloaded. I will comment that it's very hard to verify, its effect on accuracy.

HTH's Rodfac

[steve4102]

Yes, your idea will work just fine. Pushing the Lee Mandrel from the outside in will do the same thing as pulling the expander (FL die) from the inside out.
Or you can get a Lyman "M" die to expand the neck.

[Sevens]

Rodfac, thanks for your detailed reply. You may like #7, but I got a great chuckle from #6!

I think I may go ahead and try my method. At this point, I'm simply not looking to improve accuracy over what I've done. I suppose I'm certainly hoping to maintain the accuracy I've managed, while reducing the amount of futzing I'm doing with each piece of brass. Running it through two separate dies is MUCH easier than trying to lube mouths or scrubbing stuff out of the inside of a case or case mouth.

And if I can avoid the horrendous screech and resistance from the expander and STILL make proper rounds that perform as well as these have, I may have found precisely what I'm after.