Going below the minimum

Yoosta B. Blue · August 23, 2008, 07:09 AM

I'm speaking of the charge weight. I spotted a little leading in my 9mm pistol yesterday. This was after firing some rounds that I loaded up using the minimum weight of the only data I found. I am aware that bad things can happen when you exceed the maximum charge, but what about going the other way? (I'm thinking of dropping a couple of tenths of a grain below the minimum and see if the leading stops.) Is the possibility that the gun may not cycle the only thing to watch for when going below the minimum? Your thoughts/suggestions are welcomed. Thanks!

Yoosta B. Blue

Sevens · August 23, 2008, 08:09 AM

A semi-auto not cycling is the first problem you will find.

The second problem will be worse-- you could stick a bullet in your barrel. After 20 years at the bench, I finally did this last week. NO, I am not of the line of thinking that "everyone will do it eventually." I hope you don't do it, it's a PITA to remove.

If you stick a bullet in your barrel, you'll really wanna know about it before you fire the next shot. If you are astute, you'll notice something isn't right and you'll cease fire and find that stuck bullet before firing the next one.

If you don't catch it, the experience will likely ring your barrel. If you fire one on top of a stuck bullet, the new bullet charges in behind the stuck one and takes that small column of air and squeezes it and compresses it in to a tiny space and eventually, the air will push the stuck bullet out. Your barrel will get ringed, however, and wrecked for life.

Another possibility with a too light load is the chance of "detonation", a condition we've touched on here in the past. Run a search on detonation and make your own evaluation.

As for leading in your barrel, there are a couple of things to look at that could be causing it. If it's cheap, soft lead and you are pushing too fast, that will do it. But with light loads, it's more likely that the bullet is not obturating and getting a good gas seal and the flame burn is moving up the sides of the bullet. You could try another bullet with the same load, or try to get a handle on the actual diameter size of the bullets-- they could be undersized.

mikenbarb · August 23, 2008, 09:41 AM

What type and weight bullets are they and did you cast them yourself? If their cast bullets, it may be a problem with the bullet lube and theirs not enough or not the rite kind. You also have to know that their may be some lead fouling with cast bullets because theirs no jacket to keep the lead off the lands and grooves. I cast my own and I have had fouling with certain lubes but less with others. As far with powder charges, I never go below the minimum charge because of what Sevens said and I tend to like my cast charges somewhere in the middle. Read the sticky at the top of the page and it will explain better with the over max and under max charges.

Yoosta B. Blue · August 23, 2008, 11:02 AM

I appreciate the replies. The bullets in question are 9mm 125 grain LRN that I purchased commercially. They seem to have adequate lubrication, so I didn't suspect that as being the culprit...

I had worked up two loads, one of them with Unique, and the other with HS-6. I didn't watch close enough to determine which load might have produced the leading. In any case, it was not heavy leading that I saw. But even so, I wanted to see what I could do to lessen it, or to expunge its presence altogether.

I just now got back from the range, where I tried some load reductions. I reduced the Unique loads by 1/10 grain and by 3/10 grain, and did the same with the HS-6 loads. BTW, Sevens, you can be sure that I strive to be very alert each time I pull the trigger. In fact, I watch for three things: the sound of the boom, the feel of the recoil, and the sight of the smoke. If those elements aren't all present when the hammer falls, I stop and investigate before proceeding.

I think I have hit upon a winner by what I did with these charge weight reductions this morning. The load of Unique reduced by 3/10 of a grain below the minimum weight was the most accurate of the four charges that I tried. There were no failures to cycle, and there was no leading from those rounds. I'm happy about that! I'll load up a bunch of these and will confirm it on the next range trip. If I have indeed resolved the issue with such minimal attempts, then I have truly been fortunate.

Folks, thanks again for your interest in responding. What a great place this is to learn and to grow!

Yoosta B. Blue

Sevens · August 23, 2008, 05:39 PM

Hey Blue, I'm curious about your charge weight with Unique in 9mm. Tell you why... I've loaded Unique in two different amounts pushing a 125 gr LRN-- I've done 5.7 and 6.0. And it's the newer "cleaner" Unique from Alliant (not Hercules) and the data which is new data is calling 5.5 grains a max load. The old data was 6.0 grains for a max load.

In any case, Alliant/Hercules doesn't list any "start" or "minimum" loads.

I found that both the 5.7 and the 6.0 worked fine in my pistol (Taurus PT-99AF) with no problems and no signs of excess pressure.

I just tried the Alliant powder website and the reloading data area is down for the count, so I can't see what the website says about minimums.

Anyhow, I'd like to hear what you are using and how it's working for you.

NOTE!! This load I'm using is over published (current) maximum. Don't use it, don't try it, neither The Firing Line Forums nor I will be held liable for any use of this data.

HiBC · August 23, 2008, 06:06 PM

A couple things to consider.
I have fired a whole lot of full power .44 mag loads with non gas check bullets poured of wheel weight and lubed with lyman lube and I have never had a leading problem in my Ruger SBH.
My brother loads the very hard laser cast bullets in his Kimber .45 and he has had some throat leading.
My theory(which may be bogus) As has alredy been mentioned by Sevens.lack of obturation/seal will cause blowby.
Also,I suspect a 9mm or .45 gives no design consideration to cast bullets in the throat/lead area. Another thing about throat/lead,any trace of cutter marks from chambering are perpendicular to the bore(like file teeth)if the gun if fairly new,these may require some hardball break-in time.

Smaug · August 23, 2008, 07:21 PM

I stuck a bullet in the barrel in my Ruger P90 a few years back, and didn't realize it. I think I may have forgot to charge that one round, and the primer just put it in the barrel.

The next shot was pretty violent. The bullet knocked into the one that was stuck in the barrel and bulged the barrel. I'm glad it was a Ruger and didn't blow up in my hand. As it was, I had to send it back to Ruger and pay them $100 to disassemble it and install a new barrel.

I'll never make that mistake again. Better to go with full power loads for autos, IMO.

I've loaded some vERY light loads in 357 and 44 magnum cases with no problems. The more I shoot, the more I like reloading.

Yoosta B. Blue · August 24, 2008, 06:55 AM

Again, I appreciate the replies. This kind of thread makes me see more and more the value of paying close attention to what happens every time you pull the trigger...

Sevens, I rely a lot on Speer data. The Speer #13 lists 4.5 gr max and 4.1 gr start for Unique when pushing 125 gr LRN. So what I'm speaking of is my having started at 4.1 a few days ago, and the ones I loaded and tested yesterday were at 4.0 and 3.8 grains.

The 1-lb. cannister of Unique that I'm currently loading out of is the Alliant brand, but it is an older cannister design than the ones that are currently on the market. I'll see what a bunch of rounds loaded at 3.8 gr does the next time I go to the range...

I'm brand spankin' new to the world of 9mm, and I'm really enjoying it!

YBB

August 23, 2008, 08:09 AM	#2
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	A semi-auto not cycling is the first problem you will find. The second problem will be worse-- you could stick a bullet in your barrel. After 20 years at the bench, I finally did this last week. NO, I am not of the line of thinking that "everyone will do it eventually." I hope you don't do it, it's a PITA to remove. If you stick a bullet in your barrel, you'll really wanna know about it before you fire the next shot. If you are astute, you'll notice something isn't right and you'll cease fire and find that stuck bullet before firing the next one. If you don't catch it, the experience will likely ring your barrel. If you fire one on top of a stuck bullet, the new bullet charges in behind the stuck one and takes that small column of air and squeezes it and compresses it in to a tiny space and eventually, the air will push the stuck bullet out. Your barrel will get ringed, however, and wrecked for life. Another possibility with a too light load is the chance of "detonation", a condition we've touched on here in the past. Run a search on detonation and make your own evaluation. As for leading in your barrel, there are a couple of things to look at that could be causing it. If it's cheap, soft lead and you are pushing too fast, that will do it. But with light loads, it's more likely that the bullet is not obturating and getting a good gas seal and the flame burn is moving up the sides of the bullet. You could try another bullet with the same load, or try to get a handle on the actual diameter size of the bullets-- they could be undersized. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

August 23, 2008, 09:41 AM	#3
mikenbarb Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2007 Location: N.J. Posts: 1,111	What type and weight bullets are they and did you cast them yourself? If their cast bullets, it may be a problem with the bullet lube and theirs not enough or not the rite kind. You also have to know that their may be some lead fouling with cast bullets because theirs no jacket to keep the lead off the lands and grooves. I cast my own and I have had fouling with certain lubes but less with others. As far with powder charges, I never go below the minimum charge because of what Sevens said and I tend to like my cast charges somewhere in the middle. Read the sticky at the top of the page and it will explain better with the over max and under max charges. __________________ Mike B. Gun control= Being able to hit your target. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pifinnercircle

August 23, 2008, 05:39 PM	#5
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	Hey Blue, I'm curious about your charge weight with Unique in 9mm. Tell you why... I've loaded Unique in two different amounts pushing a 125 gr LRN-- I've done 5.7 and 6.0. And it's the newer "cleaner" Unique from Alliant (not Hercules) and the data which is new data is calling 5.5 grains a max load. The old data was 6.0 grains for a max load. In any case, Alliant/Hercules doesn't list any "start" or "minimum" loads. I found that both the 5.7 and the 6.0 worked fine in my pistol (Taurus PT-99AF) with no problems and no signs of excess pressure. I just tried the Alliant powder website and the reloading data area is down for the count, so I can't see what the website says about minimums. Anyhow, I'd like to hear what you are using and how it's working for you. NOTE!! This load I'm using is over published (current) maximum. Don't use it, don't try it, neither The Firing Line Forums nor I will be held liable for any use of this data. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

August 23, 2008, 07:21 PM	#7
Smaug Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2004 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 3,210	I stuck a bullet in the barrel in my Ruger P90 a few years back, and didn't realize it. I think I may have forgot to charge that one round, and the primer just put it in the barrel. The next shot was pretty violent. The bullet knocked into the one that was stuck in the barrel and bulged the barrel. I'm glad it was a Ruger and didn't blow up in my hand. As it was, I had to send it back to Ruger and pay them $100 to disassemble it and install a new barrel. I'll never make that mistake again. Better to go with full power loads for autos, IMO. I've loaded some vERY light loads in 357 and 44 magnum cases with no problems. The more I shoot, the more I like reloading. __________________ -Jeremy "Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength." - Eric Hoffer

August 23, 2008, 07:09 AM	#1
Yoosta B. Blue Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2008 Location: Just a tad NE of the Alamo... Posts: 252	Going below the minimum I'm speaking of the charge weight. I spotted a little leading in my 9mm pistol yesterday. This was after firing some rounds that I loaded up using the minimum weight of the only data I found. I am aware that bad things can happen when you exceed the maximum charge, but what about going the other way? (I'm thinking of dropping a couple of tenths of a grain below the minimum and see if the leading stops.) Is the possibility that the gun may not cycle the only thing to watch for when going below the minimum? Your thoughts/suggestions are welcomed. Thanks! Yoosta B. Blue

August 23, 2008, 11:02 AM	#4
Yoosta B. Blue Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2008 Location: Just a tad NE of the Alamo... Posts: 252	I appreciate the replies. The bullets in question are 9mm 125 grain LRN that I purchased commercially. They seem to have adequate lubrication, so I didn't suspect that as being the culprit... I had worked up two loads, one of them with Unique, and the other with HS-6. I didn't watch close enough to determine which load might have produced the leading. In any case, it was not heavy leading that I saw. But even so, I wanted to see what I could do to lessen it, or to expunge its presence altogether. I just now got back from the range, where I tried some load reductions. I reduced the Unique loads by 1/10 grain and by 3/10 grain, and did the same with the HS-6 loads. BTW, Sevens, you can be sure that I strive to be very alert each time I pull the trigger. In fact, I watch for three things: the sound of the boom, the feel of the recoil, and the sight of the smoke. If those elements aren't all present when the hammer falls, I stop and investigate before proceeding. I think I have hit upon a winner by what I did with these charge weight reductions this morning. The load of Unique reduced by 3/10 of a grain below the minimum weight was the most accurate of the four charges that I tried. There were no failures to cycle, and there was no leading from those rounds. I'm happy about that! I'll load up a bunch of these and will confirm it on the next range trip. If I have indeed resolved the issue with such minimal attempts, then I have truly been fortunate. Folks, thanks again for your interest in responding. What a great place this is to learn and to grow! Yoosta B. Blue

August 23, 2008, 06:06 PM	#6
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,288	A couple things to consider. I have fired a whole lot of full power .44 mag loads with non gas check bullets poured of wheel weight and lubed with lyman lube and I have never had a leading problem in my Ruger SBH. My brother loads the very hard laser cast bullets in his Kimber .45 and he has had some throat leading. My theory(which may be bogus) As has alredy been mentioned by Sevens.lack of obturation/seal will cause blowby. Also,I suspect a 9mm or .45 gives no design consideration to cast bullets in the throat/lead area. Another thing about throat/lead,any trace of cutter marks from chambering are perpendicular to the bore(like file teeth)if the gun if fairly new,these may require some hardball break-in time.

August 24, 2008, 06:55 AM	#8
Yoosta B. Blue Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2008 Location: Just a tad NE of the Alamo... Posts: 252	Again, I appreciate the replies. This kind of thread makes me see more and more the value of paying close attention to what happens every time you pull the trigger... Sevens, I rely a lot on Speer data. The Speer #13 lists 4.5 gr max and 4.1 gr start for Unique when pushing 125 gr LRN. So what I'm speaking of is my having started at 4.1 a few days ago, and the ones I loaded and tested yesterday were at 4.0 and 3.8 grains. The 1-lb. cannister of Unique that I'm currently loading out of is the Alliant brand, but it is an older cannister design than the ones that are currently on the market. I'll see what a bunch of rounds loaded at 3.8 gr does the next time I go to the range... I'm brand spankin' new to the world of 9mm, and I'm really enjoying it! YBB