Force on Force Training

[evan1293]

Out of those who have participated in this type of training, what were some things you liked and what were somethings you didn't like? How highly would you rate the value of this type of training? Also, what types of guns were used and how did they perform during training? Im looking into getting involved with some FOF training and I'm trying to get an idea of what works and what doesn't. Thanks!

[Rob Pincus]

Evan,

My advice is to work with people who have experience and try to keep the training from becoming one of two things that are common pitfalls:

1. Paintball: If everyone is overly concerned about "who hit who where and when", the point gets missed. Keep the round count down and this is less likely.

2. Drills out of context: Try to put the skill set that you are trying to test into a realistic context. Testing concealed carry response with a partner in a field with a "ready, set, go!" approach is almost meaningless. You're better off just doing live fire standing next to each other on reactive targets. Putting the same skill set test into the context of 5 scenarios with only 2 that result in an attack with multiple roleplayers that could spring the ambush starts to get closer to what the point of FoF should be. Skills should be developed in context whenever possible, but especially when you're already compromising the gear and setting, etc.

-RJP

[Silentarmy]

My favorite FOF training was used to dispel the myth that a drawn weapon has the advantage over the opponent with a holstered weapon. The opponent could draw and fire on you before you could react and fire your already drawn weapon at least 8 out of 10 times! Also, I liked training the 21 foot rule where you rush and stab the armed guy with a rubber knife as he thinks he can draw and fire on you before you reach him and stick him! Nothing like proof to spoil a good myth!

[evan1293]

Thanks, guys, good points. I don't want a training session turning into Saturday morning paintball for sure. I think thats a good point about keeping the round count down. One thing I'm kind of struggling with is how to keep scenarios open ended like they would be in real life, without it turning into a run-n'-gun.

The comment made about drawing on an adversary with a drawn weapon is a great example of why I think FOF can be so valuable. It seems counterintuitive, and for some it may not be the case, but you found it worked in your situation. FOF I believe will help my students to be able to better learn what works for them and what doesn't.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

This is my viewpoint from being a civilian, fat old guy and what I got out of it.

1. Realistic scenarios - not paintball shootouts (as already mentioned)
2. If one can, have realistic surroudings - houses, bars, outside with cars
3. Serious criticism (not hurtful) and debriefings. Leave the ego at the door.
4. Plan screw ups - innocents, malfunctions.
5. Some scenarios should have ambiguity as to the appropriate response level of force and action. It should be legit to not fight, to flee, to fight. Some force continuum, OODA looping
6. Some moral ambiguity - should one save the innocent or save one's own booty? How to deal with a downed partner or innocent
7. Talking to the law after the shootout, if relevant.
8. Good ROs who know the plan and rehearsed opponent roles players who know the plan. Keeps it real.
9. Fun stuff - the mystery gun. You are unarmed and have to use your wits and available environmental stuff for the fight.

Guns and equipment - I can only speak to what I've used in classes.

1. Paintball but with limited ammo to be realistic
2. Airsoft Glocks, a P-22 and long arms
3. A Sims Glock and J frames with Code Eagle

Take away points:

1. There not always a correct answer
2. You can 'die 'and learn from it
3. Stress innoculation so if this ever happens for real, you have some sense that you can function and get through it. This is esp. important obviously for military and law but for me - a FOG civilian, it was really a life changer.
4. A little pain makes the point. You do get hurt a tad by the paint balls, sims and airsoft. Many posters think they will win the gun fight and not get shot back or whupped on. Not really. Again, this may be most important to the civilian as compared to the military and law who expect to be in real fights.
2. Your

[rezmedic54]

What I use are Airsoft pistols. I have agreement with a Mobile home dealer here is to use their trade-ins after they go home so most of it is done in early evening or after dark. The biggest thing is home invasions so here everyone thinks their a kind of Rambo sometimes and I here all kinds of stuff through my CCW classes. For the most part from the cops I have talked to BG's won't enter a home when you are home and it's a screw up on their part granted some BG's don't care. But I get them to practice they come home and what do you do type stuff.
Most never say call the cops let them deal with it never. So I set the scenario up this way. You come home from wherever your front door is standing wide open everyone is with you so no one is at home at least family members. No what do you do? The majority will say I am going to get the BG and hold him for the cops. OK show me how you will do this. Sometimes there is one sometimes two BG's. Both of which are armed robbing the house I tell the folks doing the drill nothing just like real world. Well to date all my students have died none of the BG's and they still don't sat call the cops first. Gert's to be funny sometimes. I hear all kinds of answers well I don't know the house to heck that's unfair there where two guys.
Point is in real life you don't know how many are in your house. House clearing is not as easy as they show on TV.
We will also use on the street type set-ups and in the car. My point is when you don't know all the info on what is going on call the good guys let them figure it out when your on the street you need to pay attention to detail so you don't end up pushing daisies. But then what do I know I'm just a retired Medic that has been on these Rambo calls more then I'd like to admit.

[Zak Smith]

FOF AAR on THR

[Erik]

"Out of those who have participated in this type of training, what were some things you liked and what were somethings you didn't like?"

I didn't like how my "square range training" let me down when I first began FOF training. After all, I had worked on that for years and had it down.

I liked the challenge of merging firearms, hand to hand, edged and impact weapons use together.

Years later, while I'm not quit as well rounded as I will be, this is for certain: I'm far ahead of when I was relying mostly square range shooting skills to see me through.

"How highly would you rate the value of this type of training?"

It is invaluable. If you aren't working FOF and integrating skills sets expected to be brought to a fight, then you're deluding yourslef about how ready you are for that fight should it happen.

"Also, what types of guns were used and how did they perform during training?"

I've trained with a variety of commercially available products. All worked well enough. Treat any training weapons failures as if your real gun went down and carry on.

[sox]

I attended one of these and came away with a whole new mindset. In brief, I learned I don't care for kydex for my carry weapon, because it was just too easy to snatch the pistol when working on retention drills as opposed to leather. Most importantly, I discoverd even with a weapon it is most likely gonna get very up close and personal before you can employ the weapon, so you better A) have empty hand skills and b) be in shape. It was great, an eye opening experience to say the least.

[evan1293]

Man, you guys are really getting me pumped on FOF. Im going to look into ordering a few glock 17 g.gas guns and get this thing rolling. Any other tips or scenarios that I could set up would be appreciated. Thanks, guys!

[Yellowstone]

One of the most exhilirating and, for me, useful training was with Simunitions. For two days our class practiced one-person clearing a building (mobile shoot house). What I liked most about it was the drills were about as close to being in a gunfight without getting killed. I was the only student that suceeded all the trials, but did figure that I would get hurt and probably shot in my center of mass (if hit) really messing up my hand and handgun ta boot. Always considered a BU after that. And it is about impossible to clear a building by yourself!

The downside was that it took about two weeks to recover. The aftermath was very realistic and obvious post stress symptoms were noticed. But, that is what made it so real. The "bad guys" included a couple people I know and it was hard to shoot them and see them drop like that. IOW, a good training program will make it very real.

I've seen a lot of training offered with soft pellets lately, has anyone done both (Simunitions and airsoft) and how does it compare?

[Erik]

Another thing:

FOF = Integrated training, if that hasn't come across yet. Interestingly, I've found "gunnies" have the hardest time with it, while pugilists the easiest. For the reasons I elluded to earlier.

[evan1293]

http://www.belisarius.com/modern_bus..._good_OODA.pdf

I found this article on another forum. Incredible insight and really an eye opener to the types of training we should be focusing on.

[Finger]

Force on Force training with Sims or Airsoft is what everybody says, just don't let it become a free for all or get out of scenario, or it will get about as stupid as unsupervised Redman training. Some of you old cops have seen that one.

I normally have set up some very realistic scenarios that stay close to the clients profile and what they probably will run into. This goes from a simple attack on the street to a Baghdad style "vehicle down hard" egress. I have found nothing that reinforces shooting to and use of cover better.

S/F
Finger

[Bob F.]

Ya' gotta try it, man; VERY REVEALING!

Stay safe.
Bob