Disassembling FTFs

Dodge DeBoulet · December 21, 2009, 07:39 AM

From my first reloading attempt last week, I wound up with 8 FTFs. I'm quite sure the cases were properly charged with powder, and that the reason for the FTFs was a light strike . . . most likely due to either an improperly seated primer or an aggressive crimp.

So now I have 8 .40 S&W cartridges with "dimpled" primers, a minimum recommended charge (5gr of WST, 140gr Cast Lead conical flat point). I want to "safe" them, but I suspect the only prudent way is to use a collet-style bullet puller, and I currently own only the impact-style.

Can anyone address the danger of using the impact-style bullet puller on FTFs such as these? I'm not interested in reusing the components, I just want to dispose of them safely and I need to pull the bullets to deactivate the primers.

Thanks . . .

GP100man · December 21, 2009, 07:59 AM

I`d first try hittin em again with the firing pin if they don`t go bang then I would pull em with my impact puller.

rwilson452 · December 21, 2009, 08:03 AM

Concur, pulling them with an impact puller is safe.

Quote:

I`d first try hittin em again with the firing pin if they don`t go bang then I would pull em with my impact puller.
_

Sport45 · December 21, 2009, 08:08 AM

I agree with GP100man. Run them through the pistol again. If the problem was improper primer seating they will probably go off with the second hit. An aggressive crimp will not keep a cartridge from firing unless it allows to cartridge to fall so deep into the barrel that the firing pin can't reach it. In that case the extractor claw usually holds it close enough to the breech to fire.

If they don't go off the second time around I'd toss them in the dud bucket at the range and be done with it.

The only way I know of to deactivate a primer is to set it off. Water, oil, snake milk, etc. just aren't reliable primer killers. The foil covering protects them pretty well from solvent attack. When I need to dispose of primers that are still active but not usable for some reason I just toss them in the trash.

CraigC · December 21, 2009, 11:05 AM

"FTF" is autospeak for Failure To Feed. If you pull the trigger and it doesn't go bang, it's a misfire or "dud".

Dodge DeBoulet · December 21, 2009, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CraigC

"FTF" is autospeak for Failure To Feed. If you pull the trigger and it doesn't go bang, it's a misfire or "dud".

Oops. Handgun newbie here that assumed it meant "Failed to Fire."

All of them fed just fine . . .

I eventually just clamped the bullet end into a vise and slowly (and carefully!) twisted the shell off with pliers. I was concerned that the dimple might still contact the anvil with enough force to cause ignition from the use of the bullet puller.

I did salvage the powder, but the bullets were a total loss . . . pretty well mangled. Interestingly, the primers all fired when I inserted them (still in their cases with bullet and powder removed) in my S&W .40 Compact and fired them. One of them took 2 attempts.

On the range, however, a 2nd attempt had done no good. It was around 12 degrees here in Maine that morning, though; perhaps the temperature had something to do with it.

tom234 · December 21, 2009, 06:09 PM

IMHO collet pullers don't work on lead bullets as they generally destroy the bullet. Better to use a kinetic [hammer] puller.

GP100man · December 21, 2009, 07:01 PM

What brand???

don`t like cold weather??

Dodge DeBoulet · December 21, 2009, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GP100man

What brand???

don`t like cold weather??

Why, they were genuine Dodge DeBoulets(R), loaded in my very own press.

The components were:

Wolf SP Primers
5gr WST Powder in 6 of the duds
5.9gr AA #2 in 2 of them
S & S Casting Lead Bullets, Conical FP, 140gr
Some "found" brass plus a lot of my own salvaged Federal

GP100man · December 22, 2009, 06:37 AM

The sp primer I like is WW standard.

mongoose33 · December 22, 2009, 07:52 AM

I can relate to the experience.

Very early after I'd received my LNL AP press I had a couple fail to fires. Turned out I hadn't fully seated the primers. I was too relaxed in how hard I was pushing the handle of the press during the primer-seating step.

When you seat the primer w/ the LnL AP, you need to give the handle just a little extra push at the end of the seating operation. When I feel the primer contact the case, I give it a little extra push with the handle to ensure I'm seating it fully.

It'll become part of your muscle memory and routine.

David Wile · December 23, 2009, 09:10 PM

Hey Dodge,

You mentioned that you may have been using "an agressive crimp," and that may have been the problem. The .40 S&W (like most other semi auto pistol calibers) headspaces on the case mouth and should not have any more than a hint of a taper crimp. Like someone else mentioned earlier, the cartridge may have been going too far into the chamber to be struck properly by the firing pin. You really need to be careful when seating and crimping these types of cartridges. All you need to do is remove any belling of the case mouth and then perhaps just a hint of a crimp may be added. Like you, I seat and crimp these types of pistol rounds in one operation of the same seater/crimp die. When adjusting the die to seat, remove any belling, and put a hint of a crimp on the mouth, I examine the case mouth with a magnifying glass to make sure the mouth is just right.

I would have pulled the bullets by running the cartridge up on the shell holder till the bullet just stuck out of the top of press, and then I would have firmly bit into the bullet with a dykes type pliars and pulled the case back down with ram leaving the bullet behind. Then I would have emptied the powder and resized the case without removing the primer, replaced the powder and a new bullet (making sure I did not crimp the mouth), and then I would have tried shooting the remade shell. If all of the "bad" cartridges fired after being reloaded with the same primer, then you could be pretty sure your problem was the crimp trashing the headspace.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

Dodge DeBoulet · December 23, 2009, 11:40 PM

Thanks, David. I don't think it was the crimp at this point. The duds all seated properly in the chamber (I brought them back home from the range to check them out). I think the issue was either primers that weren't fully seated or defective primers. I bought (a lot of) Wolf primers when they suddenly appeared at Widener's a couple of weeks ago, and a couple of folks I've communicated with have a relatively low opinion of Wolf.

Regarding pulling the bullets: I didn't have anything that would reach far enough down through the die mount to grab the bullet, thus the vise and pliers solution. Crude and slow, but effective, and it's not like I had dozens of bullets to do.

David Wile · December 24, 2009, 11:55 AM

Hey Dodge,

Seating easily in the chamber is not the criteria to determine whether or not your crimping is affecting headspace. If you seat a bullet and do not remove any belling you may have used, the finished round will probably not seat in the chamber. The case mouth will be too large to allow seating. If you remove the belling properly and have a perfectly straight case mouth, the round should fit in the chamber with ease (assuming of course the case length is correct for the caliber). If you were to seat the bullet and then put a heavy crimp on the mouth, you can effectively shorten case length, and that will affect the headspace. Such a shortened round will still likely seat in the chamber very easily, but the case mouth of the round will not be stopped by the front of the chamber, and the round may essentially be too short to be struck properly by the firing pin.

Maybe the crimp was not the problem, but keep in mind for the future that such rounds headspace on the case mouth, and you need to be careful when seating and crimping such rounds.

When I mentioned about pulling cheap bullets with a pliars and your press, I did not think of the bullet not reaching through the top of the press. In addition to my LNL press, I have several single stage presses that I can go to for pulling bullets in the fashion I mentioned. After reading what you said, I need to check if I have some short pistol cartridges that do not reach through the tops of my single stage presses. If you can reach the bullet with a Vice Grips or dykes and you do not care about destroying the bullet, you can remove bullets very easily that way.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

Dodge DeBoulet · December 24, 2009, 12:36 PM

Perhaps "seating" was the incorrect term, David. I meant that the cartridges inserted into the chamber to the correct depth, as compared to factory ammo. I also checked the rounds with a Lyman .40 S&W gauge and found nothing out of the ordinary.

I'm suspecting the primers, or the seating (I believe I am using the term correctly this time

) thereof . . .

December 21, 2009, 07:39 AM	#1
Dodge DeBoulet Senior Member Join Date: December 8, 2009 Posts: 181	Disassembling FTFs From my first reloading attempt last week, I wound up with 8 FTFs. I'm quite sure the cases were properly charged with powder, and that the reason for the FTFs was a light strike . . . most likely due to either an improperly seated primer or an aggressive crimp. So now I have 8 .40 S&W cartridges with "dimpled" primers, a minimum recommended charge (5gr of WST, 140gr Cast Lead conical flat point). I want to "safe" them, but I suspect the only prudent way is to use a collet-style bullet puller, and I currently own only the impact-style. Can anyone address the danger of using the impact-style bullet puller on FTFs such as these? I'm not interested in reusing the components, I just want to dispose of them safely and I need to pull the bullets to deactivate the primers. Thanks . . .

December 21, 2009, 08:08 AM	#4
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	I agree with GP100man. Run them through the pistol again. If the problem was improper primer seating they will probably go off with the second hit. An aggressive crimp will not keep a cartridge from firing unless it allows to cartridge to fall so deep into the barrel that the firing pin can't reach it. In that case the extractor claw usually holds it close enough to the breech to fire. If they don't go off the second time around I'd toss them in the dud bucket at the range and be done with it. The only way I know of to deactivate a primer is to set it off. Water, oil, snake milk, etc. just aren't reliable primer killers. The foil covering protects them pretty well from solvent attack. When I need to dispose of primers that are still active but not usable for some reason I just toss them in the trash. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

December 21, 2009, 07:01 PM	#8
GP100man Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2007 Location: Tabor City , NC. Posts: 1,969	What brand??? don`t like cold weather?? __________________ GP100man

December 22, 2009, 06:37 AM	#10
GP100man Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2007 Location: Tabor City , NC. Posts: 1,969	The sp primer I like is WW standard. __________________ GP100man

December 21, 2009, 07:59 AM	#2
GP100man Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2007 Location: Tabor City , NC. Posts: 1,969	I`d first try hittin em again with the firing pin if they don`t go bang then I would pull em with my impact puller. __________________ GP100man

December 21, 2009, 11:05 AM	#5
CraigC Junior member Join Date: November 28, 2001 Location: West Tennessee Posts: 4,300	"FTF" is autospeak for Failure To Feed. If you pull the trigger and it doesn't go bang, it's a misfire or "dud".

December 21, 2009, 06:09 PM	#7
tom234 Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 2008 Location: Kansas Posts: 753	IMHO collet pullers don't work on lead bullets as they generally destroy the bullet. Better to use a kinetic [hammer] puller.

December 22, 2009, 07:52 AM	#11
mongoose33 Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 228	I can relate to the experience. Very early after I'd received my LNL AP press I had a couple fail to fires. Turned out I hadn't fully seated the primers. I was too relaxed in how hard I was pushing the handle of the press during the primer-seating step. When you seat the primer w/ the LnL AP, you need to give the handle just a little extra push at the end of the seating operation. When I feel the primer contact the case, I give it a little extra push with the handle to ensure I'm seating it fully. It'll become part of your muscle memory and routine.

December 23, 2009, 09:10 PM	#12
David Wile Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2001 Location: Mechanicsburg, PA Posts: 585	Hey Dodge, You mentioned that you may have been using "an agressive crimp," and that may have been the problem. The .40 S&W (like most other semi auto pistol calibers) headspaces on the case mouth and should not have any more than a hint of a taper crimp. Like someone else mentioned earlier, the cartridge may have been going too far into the chamber to be struck properly by the firing pin. You really need to be careful when seating and crimping these types of cartridges. All you need to do is remove any belling of the case mouth and then perhaps just a hint of a crimp may be added. Like you, I seat and crimp these types of pistol rounds in one operation of the same seater/crimp die. When adjusting the die to seat, remove any belling, and put a hint of a crimp on the mouth, I examine the case mouth with a magnifying glass to make sure the mouth is just right. I would have pulled the bullets by running the cartridge up on the shell holder till the bullet just stuck out of the top of press, and then I would have firmly bit into the bullet with a dykes type pliars and pulled the case back down with ram leaving the bullet behind. Then I would have emptied the powder and resized the case without removing the primer, replaced the powder and a new bullet (making sure I did not crimp the mouth), and then I would have tried shooting the remade shell. If all of the "bad" cartridges fired after being reloaded with the same primer, then you could be pretty sure your problem was the crimp trashing the headspace. Best wishes, Dave Wile

December 23, 2009, 11:40 PM	#13
Dodge DeBoulet Senior Member Join Date: December 8, 2009 Posts: 181	Thanks, David. I don't think it was the crimp at this point. The duds all seated properly in the chamber (I brought them back home from the range to check them out). I think the issue was either primers that weren't fully seated or defective primers. I bought (a lot of) Wolf primers when they suddenly appeared at Widener's a couple of weeks ago, and a couple of folks I've communicated with have a relatively low opinion of Wolf. Regarding pulling the bullets: I didn't have anything that would reach far enough down through the die mount to grab the bullet, thus the vise and pliers solution. Crude and slow, but effective, and it's not like I had dozens of bullets to do.

December 24, 2009, 11:55 AM	#14
David Wile Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2001 Location: Mechanicsburg, PA Posts: 585	Hey Dodge, Seating easily in the chamber is not the criteria to determine whether or not your crimping is affecting headspace. If you seat a bullet and do not remove any belling you may have used, the finished round will probably not seat in the chamber. The case mouth will be too large to allow seating. If you remove the belling properly and have a perfectly straight case mouth, the round should fit in the chamber with ease (assuming of course the case length is correct for the caliber). If you were to seat the bullet and then put a heavy crimp on the mouth, you can effectively shorten case length, and that will affect the headspace. Such a shortened round will still likely seat in the chamber very easily, but the case mouth of the round will not be stopped by the front of the chamber, and the round may essentially be too short to be struck properly by the firing pin. Maybe the crimp was not the problem, but keep in mind for the future that such rounds headspace on the case mouth, and you need to be careful when seating and crimping such rounds. When I mentioned about pulling cheap bullets with a pliars and your press, I did not think of the bullet not reaching through the top of the press. In addition to my LNL press, I have several single stage presses that I can go to for pulling bullets in the fashion I mentioned. After reading what you said, I need to check if I have some short pistol cartridges that do not reach through the tops of my single stage presses. If you can reach the bullet with a Vice Grips or dykes and you do not care about destroying the bullet, you can remove bullets very easily that way. Best wishes, Dave Wile

December 24, 2009, 12:36 PM	#15
Dodge DeBoulet Senior Member Join Date: December 8, 2009 Posts: 181	Perhaps "seating" was the incorrect term, David. I meant that the cartridges inserted into the chamber to the correct depth, as compared to factory ammo. I also checked the rounds with a Lyman .40 S&W gauge and found nothing out of the ordinary. I'm suspecting the primers, or the seating (I believe I am using the term correctly this time ) thereof . . .