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Old February 14, 2002, 03:09 PM   #51
rowdy1
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Bottom Gun,
It said 50 pounds of black powder.
This whole thing pisses me off so bad. I tried calling the sherriff's dept. and they just keep putting me through to voice mail.
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Old February 14, 2002, 03:22 PM   #52
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I know. I had the same experience.
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Old February 14, 2002, 03:39 PM   #53
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The AZ Daily Star told me that it's 'very likely' that my letter about this will be published soon. Hopefully that'll get some more people to think about what's going on....
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Old February 14, 2002, 04:36 PM   #54
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I live in the city limits of Tucson. I have checked a couple of times and never found a city oridenance concerning the amounts of smokeless or black powder that one can hold on your property. When I called the city a fews years back, I was refered to the NFPA (National Fire Prevention Administration) recommendations. It states in the NFPA that the limit for a private individual is 30 pounds of powder and 10,000 primers. It then states if the powder is held in a specially constructed magazine the amount is greater. SInce I never have had, nor plan on having more than 10 or twenty pounds in the garage at any one time, I didn't give this a second thought. The idiots on the news may be calling a fire code a "law". It is not the same thing.

I sure hope that the military rounds that were reportedly "stolen" can be proven to be legal. This poor guy probably picked them up at a gunshow or swap meet, not knowing what he bought. Even if the munitions are inert, he could still get charged with possession of stolen property. He is in for a rough ride. And he is just the kind of victim liberal prosecutor love: doesn't have enough money to mount a serious defense, had a stoke, so he is physically incapable to defend himself and has been painted as a gun crazed maniac by the press.
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Old February 14, 2002, 06:19 PM   #55
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Well, the news says that the "law" found some 20MM anti-aircraft shells in the victim's house. He is a victim,....is he not? But, if the 20MM are current live issue, then there might be a problem.

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Old February 14, 2002, 09:01 PM   #56
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Well folks the phone calls have been made to the lawyers that I mentioned. One did tell me that he would look in to it. But Ehor refuses his assistance, there is nothing he can do. He would need his family to ask if the man is unable. My buddy promised to call his people at the NRA National Board, I'll know more tomorrow. Emails went out to the mayor, council critters, state reps, police chief, congresspeople, and reps. Tomorrow, the press will feel the weight of my wrath.

The PD is putting up a pretty good fight in the controlled media. They sated that "There was a fine dusting of black powder over the entire house and the workers had to be careful not to create too much static electricty"... Or what??? A thermo-nuclear reaction?

My favorite was one idiot, I forgot who it was or I would sure as hell put his name out there: "if one of those 20mm anti-aircraft bullet (20mm bullets??? where the hell did this learn what he's dealing with..my comment not his) went off, well the house is right on the glide path for DM (airbase), it could have brought one of the aircraft down!" My secretary thought I had lost my mind when I started screaming at the radio for that bit of informed knowledge.

Keep on this boys and grrrls, the next poor fool passing out on the pourch maybe you!


Oh, for what it's worth. I called my uncle, (a retired FBI Assistant Director from the days when the FBI was run by J. Edgar and the rule of law was everything) and told him about this. I wanted his take on the matter. His comments were pretty simple and straight forward.

1) The police and the ambulence crew did have the right to enter the house to locate medications or other information to help them assurtain what caused his condition.

2) Upon realizing that there were "controllable or dangerous items" stored in the house, the cops should have contacted a judge for an order of protection for the items within the house. These thing should have been inventoried and a receipt issued to the victim and/or family members.

3) "Son, your cops are out of control down there".
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Old February 14, 2002, 09:12 PM   #57
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Reference the need for a warrant, they cited the exigent circumstances of public safety, therefore they don't need a warrant to enter and clear out the weapons and such. Happens all the time whether you like it or not.
The initial entry of the residence by the medics and then the police were lawful also, first to check for his meds and possibly other persons, then for the booby traps that the medics had found.
Whether you agree or not, it is the legal way.

Face it folks, the old guy is not the poster child for the 2A.
Anyone who has booby trapped his house is a wacko and we should be distancing ourselves from him, instead of embracing him. He will do nothing to help our cause.

Serious question. What do you need 100lbs of smokeless powder for unless you are running a reloading business??

C'mon, I wouldn't support this guy in the least, he is not the kind of people that 99% of gun owners are. He is an abberation and a bad one at that.
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Old February 14, 2002, 09:59 PM   #58
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If everybody can keep feeding the up-to-date info, maybe this will make sense. It does sound like he is a C&R dealer and quite possibly is entitled to have all this stuff. He is sure being tarred by neighbors and media. "Rich AND TFL to the rescue" sounds great doesn't it?
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Old February 14, 2002, 10:14 PM   #59
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Face it folks, the old guy is not the poster child for the 2A.
Of course he isn't, why else would they pick on him?
I mean, [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]!
Do you honestly expect that they would raid someone who was an 'upstanding' and well-known citizen?
Do you honestly think that they're going to raid some photogenic 40-or-50-something who has family, connections, and the resources to defend himself?

No, they're going to raid some old, poor, unhealthy crank who noone gives a hoot about. They're going to arrest him for violating the letter of the law, and for acting 'out of the ordinary.'
In short, they're going to do everything they can to make him look like a solitary loner who broke a bunch of laws and, thank god we got him now, because God-knows-what-he-would-have-done-to-the-children.

Do me a favor, and take a look around at your gun safe, reloading room, book collection, video collection, and all those pretty little rounds of ammo you have.
Take a good, long, hard look, and ask yourself "If CNN suddenly kicked the door in and started videotaping my life, what would the talking heads say about me on the television?"

Lemme give you a hint: Even if all you do is shoot skeet with a Perazzi over-and-under, they will still crucify you.

It just so happens to be a bit easier to crucify someone who's waaay out of step as opposed to someone who's just marginally so.

Oh, and with regard to this:
Quote:
Serious question. What do you need 100lbs of smokeless powder for unless you are running a reloading business??
SFW As far as I'm concerned, you should be able to own just about any property you like, without having to justify it to anyone. To claim that he doesn't deserve our support because he owned more powder than is normal seems kinda stupid to me.
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Old February 14, 2002, 10:35 PM   #60
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Reference the need for a warrant, they cited the exigent circumstances of public safety,...
"Public Safety", my lily-white @$$! What were his guns going to do, get up and start shooting people all by themselves while he was in the hospital?

Gimme a break...

I'd hate for the newsvultures to get a look in here. Dozens of guns! Pounds of powder! Books! Magazines! Tools! Dirty laundry! A pet ball python! *shudder* Lock her away and confiscate her crap for the all-powerful god of PUBLIC SAFETY!!!
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Old February 14, 2002, 10:48 PM   #61
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Let's gather the facts and support if we can!

Tamera, the "public safety" is a safety net for "and anything else we want to do"! Caliban, good points with one exception, if he has a C&R he had to pass muster. Yeah he's probably a lot like the rest of us, enjoys firearms, and belives what the founders said. Too bad those grabbing his guns don't as well. Med 1, none of the articles actually said he had boobie traps, the neighbors stated he told them he had them. I again say we need to gather info. Joe, bless you, if we could get enough info on him to run some searches to see where his closest family is maybe we could get them to help out. This just sucks. If we used the comment about the "static" as a metafor, we could say things like, " that officer had so much ammo on him, he could have blow us all to kingdom come it we'd lit a match! I'm ready to pony up to help hire outside investigators if we can't get the information we need to help if possible. Looks like Joe is point man at this stage. Joe, keep us posted. I have gotten a response from Aaron at Jpfo saying he would check with his contacts in the city, nothing from Angel Shamia or GOA. Tick, tock..........
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Old February 14, 2002, 10:51 PM   #62
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Anne,

I read your article about the guy who had a stroke and then had all his posessions illegaly stolen from his home and his home chopped up by the police.

Your article is so full of mis-statements, lies & contradictions, it is unbelievable. Of course, much of that is in the form of quotes. If you are going to quote such idiots, isn't it proper to close with a commentary about how all the above is untrue?

Please print an attack on the so called law enforcement and correcting statements to all the false claims printed before:

>>"Had this detonated, it would have caused a serious explosion,"<<
>>120 pounds of smokeless gunpowder and 8 pounds of black gunpowder<< Earlier it was stated that these are explosives and could have exploded at any moment. In truth, smokeless gunpowder cannot explode. It simply burns quickly. It is completely legal and safe.

>>Bomb making supplies<<. Also known as completely legal cartridge reloading supplies.

>>Those devices included a grenade, ammunition for a bazooka and a 60 mm mortar round, which all turned out to be practice rounds, Kidd said <<
In other words, diabled dummy rounds. Completely safe and legal.

>>but also books, tools, benches, videos and much more, Kidd said<< Quick, you better turn yourself in! I'm sure you have lots of these in YOUR home. I sure do.

>>Many said they were relieved<< Wasn't there anyone there at all who were not relieved but are now in total fear of the government storm troopers comming to their home next? Were those people unfit to quote? Why?

>>licensed firearms collector<< ... need I say more? In fact, I'm pretty sure if he was NOT licensed, he would have still been completely legal.

Why were the cops called? I would have just locked the doors when I noted the valuables inside.
Why the hole in the roof? They had no business in his home & they DO have gas masks.
Since this poor, sick man was not in the commission of any other crime than having a stroke, what the hell is the deal?
It is so sad that yourself and your paper hold the small part of the first amendment dealing with free speech in such high esteem but totally ignore ones civil rights to keep arms or to protect from illegal search and seizure.


This guy did not commit any illegal ACTS in re his 2nd Amendment rights. But, your papers false reporting and misleading statements do sound like very poor use of your "freedom of speech". Sure, neither is illegal, but yours is the one that can cause harm.
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Old February 14, 2002, 10:51 PM   #63
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Caliban,
He doesn't get my support because he is wreckless with the storage of his weapons and powder, and so mentally unstable that he has booby traps in his house.

How are they picking on him? The medics went to his house for a medical problem. There was no raid. The medics found this fine citizens booby traps while looking for a blanket to help him deal with the stroke that he had on his front porch. There was no raid.
BTW, who is this "they" you refer too, the media or law enforcement or little green men in black helicopters.

I know this is a gun board, but this guy is atypical of gun owners.

Having that much powder in your home is ridicilous, plain and simple. It is a public hazard, he did not have the powder stored in a safe manner and it was a definite hazard.
BTW, all my weapons and ammo are stored either in vaults, cases or ammo cans. What a concept.

To support this guy just because he is a fellow gun owner seems really stupid to me. Supporting a mentally unstable indivdual like him is akin to voting for Gore or living in California, it just don't make sense to the sane people. To each his own I guess.
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Old February 14, 2002, 11:04 PM   #64
Ceol Mhor
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Anyone who has booby trapped his house is a wacko and we should be distancing ourselves from him, instead of embracing him.
Well, with this going on, I'm going to seriously think about booby-trapping MY house (when I get one, that is...). But my booby-traps won't be found before they go off. As far as I'm concerned, anyone entering without my permission (and with it my warning) is a miscreant and deserves to get hurt. Cops included.
Quote:
I wouldn't support this guy in the least, he is not the kind of people that 99% of gun owners are.
When they came for guys with gunpowder, I said nothing, because I had no gunpowder. And when they came for me...

MedicatedOne - My Dad has about 50 Arisakas. Should he have to justify that? Should he be villified for it? Hey, no "normal" person needs 50 of the same model rifle, do they?
No gun owner is going to represents "all normal gun owners." We're all individuals, with our own eccentricities and difference. If you only support the rights of those who are just like you, you'll end up alone. My Dad has hardly a round of ammo for those Arisakas - he just likes the history. But you can bet that if the cops "secured" (:barf: ) our house, he'd have "an arsenal of military weapons and handguns, explosives [powder], paramilitary equipment [WWII uniforms], machineguns [a dewat], explosives [dummy grenades], and equipment for manufacturing unlicensed ammunition [a single-stage press]. Oh, plus being a "basement gun dealer" [used to have an FFL w/o a storefront]. How evil, eh? Having thought about the bald-faced lies that are normally used to describe gun owners by the media, my feeling is that I'll support anyone and everyone.
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Old February 14, 2002, 11:05 PM   #65
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well golly gee whiz. I didn't know that I had to store my guns in safes. Guess I shouldn't use thirty pound smokeless powder containers for coffee table legs and end tables either.

Horse pucky.

My gas water heater is more of a danger to the neighbors than my loadin and shootin stuff.

Cool booby trap.....pet skunk that hasn't been fixed. Had one for a while.

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Old February 14, 2002, 11:15 PM   #66
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Tamara,
As usual you don't get it. The booby traps and the powder all over the place was the public safety issue. What else was booby trapped? Do you know? Well neither did they. Just how volatile was that house? You don't know that either, seems you don't know much about what you speak of, but you sure speak alot.

MatthewM,
You would just have ignored the booby trapped house. What a good citizen you are.

Sumabich,
Read this link, it talks about the booby traps, as did all the newscasts here in Tucson and the news articles the first day.
http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/local/2_14_02gun_haus.html

This link addresses the initial response to the residence and the discovery of the booby traps.
http://www.azstarnet.com/star/tue/20212explosives.html

Coel,
I agree, no one needs 50 of the same rifle, but that is his business as long as he handles them responsibly, our poster child did not. Your willingness to booby trap your house shows your mental state, and its not a good one.

To all,
I will gladly support any gun owner who is being railroaded, however I have not seen info on many posted here, felons, the insane and other oddballs are not my kind of gunowners.
I guess that makes me an oddball on this board, I actually want to evaluate the individual in question instead of just blindly swearing my allegiance to them, because they own guns.
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Old February 14, 2002, 11:22 PM   #67
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C.R. Sam,
You nailed it, you said "my" weapons, we are speaking of his weapons and powder, not yours. You might want to have that water heater serviced, since it is dangerous.
You can store your weapons any way you want, just don't whine when you get burglarized and cleaned out. I used to respond to whiny gun owners who donated all their guns to the burglars by not having them in a safe.
No my carry guns are readily available, but the rest are in a safe.
To each his own.
BTW, what happened to your skunk, sounds like a heck of a deterent to anyone entering.
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Old February 14, 2002, 11:23 PM   #68
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...and so mentally unstable that he has booby traps in his house.
Every detailed reference to the "booby traps" that I have seen references the fact that these were OC spray traps.

Perfectly legal.

Available by mail order or over the 'net.

You can connect them to your buglar alarm.


I "get it" just fine.

It has nothing, nada, zip, zilch, to do with the fact that he "owns guns". It has everything to do with the fact that he has rights.

Rights which have been peed all over.

Peed all over by those sworn to protect them.
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Old February 14, 2002, 11:26 PM   #69
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Tamara,
Thanks for not taking me too seriously.
BTW, is booby trap a non-pc phrase?
Shouldn't it be mammary trap or breast trap? I am so confused.

Whether we like it or not, what they did was legal, if not in line with our view of the 4th amendment.
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Old February 14, 2002, 11:37 PM   #70
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Sadly, "legal" and "right" are frequently miles apart these days.
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Old February 14, 2002, 11:57 PM   #71
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Agreed, it is a legal system not a justice system.

Now that I have some of you riled up, here is my point.
We need to think about who we support and when.
If you support everyone that is fine, but I have seen the knee-jerk reaction run rampant in this thread, without much thought put into why you were supporting this person.
Think, think, think, as Pooh would say, it is what makes us humans so special, cognitive reasoning.

Unless some new information comes to light, which I highly doubt, I can't support this guy.

Anyway, I will be going back to the revolver forum for awhile, I just got into this cause living in Tucson and hearing all this for three days now on the news, I see things a little differently than those that are reading an article from across the country.

The one thing I don't get is this, why do they take all of his guns, I can see where the powder can be an issue, but why the guns?
Is it because they can?
Or because now the media has told all the burglars that the guy is in the hospital and his traps are disarmed, so his guns are easy to get now?
A lot from former and a little from the latter, me thinks.

Peace,
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Old February 15, 2002, 12:00 AM   #72
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MO-

Quote:
I agree, no one needs 50 of the same rifle, but that is his business as long as he handles them responsibly, our poster child did not.
How did Ehor not handle his arms responsibly? He wasn't shooting in the town square; he wasn't handing them out to the local children and letting them play; he wasn't hurting anyone.

The police had no idea he had this many guns until they entered his home. So the guns happened to be laying around the house, hidden under the stove and other odd places. So? That house is his private property, and he can do whatever he wants on it.

Are you saying that we have full rights to 'keep and bear arms' but we do not have the right to store them however we see fit?

Oh, and I can vouch for Ceols mental state:

Quote:
Your willingness to booby trap your house shows your mental state, and its not a good one.
It's just fine, thank you very much. Taking precautions to protect private property is not a sign of mental instabilty (nor is alliteration )
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Old February 15, 2002, 12:44 AM   #73
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MedicatedOne-
Quote:
He doesn't get my support because he is wreckless with the storage of his weapons and powder, and so mentally unstable that he has booby traps in his house.
I've not seen footage of the inside of his home, it may very well be true that he is/was 'wreckless' in how he stored his weapons. However, doing so is not grounds for having the law raid your house. However, if it were a situation where, say, there were always children running through his house, and one of those kids took a weapon and some tradgedy resulted, then I would agree, throw the book at him.
This simply begs one question: Whom did he hurt? What person(s) did he assault, maim, murder, rape, injure, etc.? Upon who's rights did he infringe?
Certainly being an eccentric (crazy?) old coot doesn't (or shouldn't) earmark one for such dramatic repercussions.

So far, the only references I can find to 'booby traps' are that they were all tear-gas or pepperspray based, like the ones available here
For those on a tight budget, or under certain circumstances, such a system may be the best option. After all, they are non-lethal, cost-efficient, and effective.

BTW, sorry about referencing the almighty, anonymous, evil they In this case, I'm referring to the local law enforcement officials, media, and the DA who is probably cracking his knuckles and chomping at the bit to nail this guy.
Whether or not they are doing this out of spite to gun owners, or simply out of dramatic over reaction is pretty immaterial at this point. The fact is that they (the one's listed above) seem to be getting all flustered and are reacting like the guy had a mid-yield tactical nuke in his basement.

As too having a 'ridiculous' amount of powder, yeah, I'll agree, it seems like he has more than the average bear. So what? As far as I'm concerned, it's a basic human right to own property in any quantity one can afford without having to justify it to anyone. Jerry Seinfeld has a collection of Porshes (IIRC). Should he have to justify why he has that much horsepower all stored in one big garage? After all, no one needs a car that can go that fast.

With regard to 'public safety' I believe that this is where you and I are going to have a major difference of opinion.
It is my steadfast belief that squishy terms such as 'public safety' undermine the rights of the individual. Such a term is nebulous at best, and downright manipulative at worst. In any case, once you start infringing on the rights of an individual for the 'rights' of the group, it's only a matter of time until all individual rights are infringed upon, including yours.

Which brings me to why this whole thing bothers me. Granted, the guy may be a few rounds short of a full magazine, but that doesn't give you, or I, or the government any more authority to seize his belongings and threaten to arrest him, especially after the place was searched without the use of a warrant. (I don't care how 'legal' the excuse is, that is what it boils down to.)

What additionally bothers me is that you now have reporters referring to old, C&R bolt guns as 'military style assault rifles.'

What really, really, irks the living poo out of me is that this whole thing is setting a very nasty precedent that will be used in the future as justification for similar actions.
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Old February 15, 2002, 01:02 AM   #74
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As for Eroh himself, he remains in critical condition at a local hospital after suffering a medical emergency early Monday morning. Authorities were originally called to Eroh's home on an indecent exposure call, after a neighbor saw Eroh on his porch naked Monday morning. When they arrived, however, they soon realized Eroh was experiencing either a heart attack or stroke. While on the scene, they couldn't help but notice a reported "mountain of ordinance" inside his home.
No, I didn't doctor the story ... that is exactly the word they used.

Ordinance - one definition ... a law set forth by a governmental authority; specifically : a municipal regulation.

Ordnance - military supplies including weapons, ammunition, combat vehicles, and maintenance tools and equipment.


I would say that reporter said the proverbial mouthful ... when the press can't tell the difference between ordnance and an ordinance in a case like this ... well, I'd say that is the perfect Freudian slip.

Every day we slip further from the improbable to the surreal. Unfortunately, Tucson, AZ resembles California these days. Incredible.

I do hope the City has made Eroh into a wealthy man ... he'll deserve it, after all of this horse manure.

Regards from AZ
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Old February 15, 2002, 08:46 AM   #75
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When are some of you people going to get it?

How long are you going to continue to redraw the line in the sand?

Do you even have one?

When are you going to admit that not all of the governments targets or "victims" are going to be approaching sainthood?

Oh, the guy is a mental case because he used a perfectly legal CS gas device to protect his home from potential burglars.

Sounds pretty rational to me. They are installed by businesses and residential alarm companies everywhere, everday as a deterrent to would-be burglars.

Oh, he was irresponsible because he stored his firearms in an unsafe manner.

So, hiding his firearms around his home to deter theft is irresponsible?

Oh, he posed a reckless threat to the neighborhood because of the volume of smokeless powder he had in his home.

So, when did smokeless powder become explosive? I agree that he may not have had it housed correctly, but it positively posed no explosive threat to his neighbors. I venture to say that your ammunition or powder stored in metal containers is more explosive in nature than what has been described thus far in these news reports.

Oh, he is a terrorist because he possessed 20mm "anti-aircraft" shells.

So, have you prosecutors of the poor man already made the determination that these rounds were anything but inert? Incidentally, the US military has long relinquished the idea utilizing the 20mm as an anti-aircraft weapon due to its relative inneffectiveness. The round(s) he likely possessed are inert, and are the more common variety used by the 20mm 3-barreled rotary cannon used on the AH-1S Cobra or the Vulcan equipped tracked vehicle, with neither platform being in the US inventory or generally available for sale to civilians.

I know that a lot of these points have already been made by my compatriots, but you people who so eagerly condescend against someone so obviously being villified by the press and government alike need to truly rethink your own personal situations. More than likely, you are a simple phone call away from having your little "arsenal" trotted out for public consumption, but not in as favorable a light as you would hope.

What about Emerson? He wasn't anybody's poster child either. Sure, he lost the restraining order aspect of his case, but the resultant 5th Circuit opinion rendered will eventually prove invaluable in the trying times ahead.

What about the poor guy Bob Stewart?) at Maadi-Griffin, now rotting in Florence because of some BATF hand-wringing, re-interpretation and blind justice?

What about the gun shop owner (can't recall his name), also in Mesa, AZ, who had his entire inventory tossed carelessly into plastic trash cans while he watched over non-payment of some obscure, petty city ordinance?

Time for some folks to pull their 9th Circuit collective craniums out of their respective (or maybe not) posteriors.

All of these fellows recieved notice from Angel Shamaya. Is she to be considered a knee-jerk respondent, also? I've never met Angel, but I gather you would have a difficult time convincing her of that. I'd even pay to eavesdrop. An extra nickel just to get a recording of it to transcribe it to a .wav file, just to have the luxury of providing it for folks here to hear.

When is it going to be enough to convince you "non-believers" that something is afoot in sometimes dusty, sometimes flash-floodsville?

Maybe when Napolitano's new little Fed-sponsored gun grabbem' task force catches you running afoul and committing some innocuous or petty crime. Or maybe you, too, pull a "Fred Sanford" (Mr. Foxx, I'm comin' ta' join ya' soon, myself) and the arriving EMT's notice your "gun aura de jour" environ while rummaging for some bed-linens. Who knows? The possibilities under the "ostrich-plan" are ad infinitem. I've seen the ostriches in past years off I-10 on the way to Tucson. Seems the idea is catching on...

Sure, the facts aren't all in. But enough of them are to see that this man has fallen victim to, at a minimum, the media and the sheep who subscribe to it.

Apparently, he has fallen victim in the minds of some gun-owners as well.
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