.45 Super

[RickB]

My first range session with my new .45 Super was quite a disappointment.
The gun used to be my USPSA Limited 10 competition gun, with 6" bull barrel and matching long slide. Seems like the prefect gun for the purpose.
Checking my powder supply against load data, I decided on 230gr RN over Ramshot Enforcer.
I set up the chrono, and gave my buddy the, "Stand back, this is going to be awesome, and please check to make sure the spent cases aren't going over the berm where we can't recover them!"
Well. two tenths below recommended max, and I'm still in the .45 ACP +P range for velocities (from a 5" barrel!). The spent cases are falling into my range bag on the next bench.
So, back to the drawing board. I have AA #7 and Power Pistol. Both appear to be good choices, hopefully better than Enforcer.
Anyone have any real chrono data from a real gun, for #7?
I don't want to blow anything up, but I'd like to see at least a real 1000fps, and from 6", I think 1100fps is not crazy talk.

[Brian Pfleuger]

No experience with the cartridge itself but true max velocity loads for most semi-auto cartridges happen with Power Pistol or 800x.

Plenty of "suggestions" out there for charge weights if you Google, I hesitate to call it "data".

http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/ammo-ca...225-gr-tc.html

http://www.realguns.com/loads/45Super.htm

[RickB]

I'd just like to see some additional chrono data for some of the loads I probably already have.

[Sevens]

I wish I could actually help, but I can only relay a recent tale that really.... won't... help.

I worked and then re-worked and then chrono'd a .460 Rowland load and well under "published" max, I'm getting impressive velocities. In a world of common/popular cartridges with oodles of published data that is outrageously optimistic, it's a bit of an eye-opener when you see results that pretty much show you exactly what the published data claims.

My gun: Remington R1 with Clark Custom .460 Rowland barrel/compensator
My bullet: 185gr Precision Delta JHP
My powder: Hodgdon Longshot
My charge: 12.2 grains, 1.245" COAL, Fed LP-Mag primer, Starline brass

My results: 5-inch barrel, 85-degrees & overcast, 1,435 FPS average for 10 shots returning a 23.96 ES and 9.11 SD

It is impressive performance, two-tenths of a grain over START load with a slightly longer COAL (although not exactly the same slug)

I suppose, if nothing else...
It maybe needles you to consider .460 Rowland if .45 Super doesn't get you where you wish you could be.
(keep in mind that Hodgdon's published data for a MAX load in .45 Super with Longshot & 230gr slug shows 19.8k CUP and MAX load for 230gr bullet in .460 Rowland with Longshot runs 39,200 CUP so comparing the two is like Apples to Buicks.

[RickB]

I don't have a dream load, just want something that makes the effort worthwhile. I might never shoot a round other than over a chronograph.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Both of those links I provided have chronograph data for Power Pistol and your bullet weight.

[Ole 5 hole group]

In the links Brian Pfleuger provided, I will add that VV N350 gives similar velocities to Power Pistol with the 230 grain Gold Dot up to 8.5 grains with 5 inch barrel - beyond that is uncharted territory for me.

[HiBC]

I have chrono'd some loads for 460 Rowland;255 gr or so at over 1300.IMO,it can deliver performance.

My observation:You are still restricted to the magazine length and OAL that will function in a 1911.

The case length is longer.That length must be subtracted from the acceptable bullet protrusion.Its a problem for many bullet designs.The 230 gr Magtech jacketed SWC was unsuitable.Most SWC seat to the shoulder .They may be to long to work.
A bullet that takes the ogive to the case mouth with a 45 ACP may not work in a 460 Rowland.

I'm not telling this to knock the Rowland.Its just good to know before to spend your money.

[Clark]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I did some 45acp testing in early 2000 with a 20 ounce Patriot 45acp pistol and a 20 pound Mauser I converted to 45acp, back when I started handloading.

45 Super and 460 Rowland brass are not necessary for the pressure, but the labeling is good for keeping them separate.

There is a succession from too wimpy to cycle and action, to 45acp published to 45acp +P published to 45 Super published to 460 Rowland published to the real useful limit of 45acp brass. The manual for the Patriot said no +P, but the factory knew I was going for 460 Rowland so they supported me with free parts.

0) 45 acp................. 185 gr. 7.6 gr. AA#5 jams w/stock Patriot spring
1) 45 acp..................185 gr. 10.2 gr. AA#5 1100 fps 18,000psi
2) 45 acp +P...............185 gr. 10.8 gr. AA#5 1200 fps 21,700 psi
3) 45 Super................185 gr. 12.4 gr. AA#5 1312 fps 28,000 cup
4) 460 Rowland............ 185 gr. 14.5 gr. AA#5 1500 fps 38,800 cup
5) Easy extraction ........185 gr. 15.0 gr. AA#5 *rifle
6) Case starts to stretch..185 gr. 15.2 gr. AA#5 *rifle
7) difficult extraction ...185 gr. 16.0 gr. AA#5 *rifle
8) primer falls out .......185 gr. 16.5 gr. AA#5 *rifle

The problem is not pressure, it is recoil.
The biggest slide mass and heaviest recoil spring assembly are not going to be big enough for hot 9mm, let alone hot 45acp. Maybe if you convert a Desert Eagle XIX to 45acp, you can push the brass and not get painful slide slam on the frame. It has a very heavy slide.

I have done 14 gr LONGSHOT with 230 gr. That is ok.
I have done 15.1 gr Power Pistol with 185 gr. That is ok

I have shot a 20 shot group at 100 yards with 13 gr AA#5 230 gr.

What does it all mean?
You may have the chamber support and chamber wall thickness for hot loads, but there is still recoil.
You should have the brass landing 5 feet from you.
Anything hotter than that will hammer your frame, slide, hand joints, and nerves.

[Hunter Customs]

My observation:You are still restricted to the magazine length and OAL that will function in a 1911.

This is very true, that's why I believe to get the full potential of the 460 Rowland the revolver is a better choice.

RickB, I'll see if I still have my old pin load info for 45 ACP, it was a hot load making a 239 power factor from a 45 ACP case.

Any slower burning powder should be a good choice for hot loads.

When I was hot-rodding the 40 S&W to make a 210 power factor a compressed charge of N350 was the answer.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

[Hunter Customs]

Anything hotter than that will hammer your frame, slide, hand joints, and nerves.

I can guarantee that if you shoot enough hot loads through a semi-auto pistol (especially speed shooting) in time your elbows will start paying the price too.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

[RickB]

In the links Brian Pfleuger provided, I will add that VV N350 gives similar velocities to Power Pistol with the 230 grain Gold Dot up to 8.5 grains with 5 inch barrel - beyond that is uncharted territory for me.

I might still have a dab of VV 340 or 350. I liked those powders, along with PP, for warm 10mm loads.
Thanks

You should have the brass landing 5 feet from you.
Anything hotter than that will hammer your frame, slide, hand joints, and nerves.

Even warm 10mm ejects 10-15 feet from a Delta Elite. I was surprised by the weak ejection of my first batch of .45 Super.

[Clark]

I knew a gunsmith, now deceased, who loaded some hot Blue Dot 410 loads for a contender pistol and went shooting rats with an electrician. The recoil was so bad the electrician lost all feeling his right hand for a month and could not work. His family did not have enough savings to cover, and it became a real problem.

[HiBC]

I only have a little experience with the 460 Rowland.This may help with the 45 Super.
An important part of the Clark .460 conversion is the compensator.
The comp puts force forward on the slide/barrel.(I have forgotten if the comp is barrel or slide attached)Along with recoil reduction,it delays un locking and lowers slide velocity.

The load I fired used Power Pistol.This was a woods gun,penetration was the goal.Flying ashtrays were not the plan.The bullet was a cast 45 Colt bullet,about 255 gr,chrono'd over 1300 fps.

It kicked more than a 45ACP,but it wasn't bad.Nothing like a .44 Mag.

It was controllable for follow up shots,and not uncomfortable.

I was wearing ear protection.

[WESHOOT2]

Power Pistol was the actual choice for max 45 Super (from Triton).