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Old October 6, 2013, 08:50 PM   #1
Katsumi Liquer
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Assistance With a .40 S&W Load

Hello, all.

I am hoping to get some help with a rather frustrating problem concerning a .40 S&W load.

A little background: I reload for several pistol and rifle calibers. For the former, the .40 S&W is the one I reload the most, as I have about a dozen handguns chambered in that caliber.

The .40 S&W recipe I have used for over a decade is a 155 gr. flat point (FP) projectile (Berry's or Rainier, whichever is on sale) over 5.4 gr. of Universal at an OAL of 1.140" with a light taper crimp, using mixed brass and a variety of primers. This is a very soft-shooting and clean-burning recipe that yields a muzzle velocity of around 1040 fps out of a 4.7' barrel, and is extremely accurate in all of my handguns chambered for that caliber. I estimate I have loaded in excess of 15,000 rounds of these.

A few years ago, I purchased a rather... sizable quantity of Berry's 155 gr. round shoulder (RS) projectiles, on the assumption that they would perform similar to the FP projectile.

Boy, was I wrong. Try as I did, I could not get the RS projectiles to shoot anything resembling a group with any of my guns. I started with the same recipe as the FP load, then tried varying the powder charge and OAL, to no avail. I also tried recipes with other powders (Bullseye and Unique), but the RS projectile just refused to group properly. It was, to say the least, an exercise in frustration.

This is typical of the kind of grouping I get with my tried-and-tested FP recipe (in this case, shooting my SigPro SP2340 offhand from 25 yards):




In contrast, the "grouping" with the RS load:




Here's an image of the two cartridges. On the left is the RS load, the right the FP load:




Does anyone have any suggestions about what needs to be done to get the RS load to shoot as accurately as the FP load? I'm still sitting on a sizable quantity of the RS projectiles that I'd like to use.

(As a side note, I notice the .40 S&W 155 gr. RS projectile is no longer in Berry's catalog.)

Thanks in advance.
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Old October 7, 2013, 02:16 AM   #2
JustSomeGuy
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You are not inexperienced, so I will take it you might have already done something like this, but when you go to the range take a caliper. Load a magazine with the "suspect" rounds. Fire a couple of rounds, then remove the magazine and clear the chamber. Look at the previously chambered round you just cleared. What do you see? Does it still measure the same in OAL or other dimensions as when you loaded it? How about the next one down in the magazine? It is, of course, quite possible that these are just poor shooting bullets with uneven plating that is causing them to drift because they are not internally concentric, but it would be disappointing to have a couple thousand like that.

I feel you pain!
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Old October 7, 2013, 08:17 AM   #3
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Have you looked at bullet alignment in the case (runout)? Could it be that the bullet nose shape does not match your seating die seating stem shape well enough?

SL1
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Old October 7, 2013, 08:39 AM   #4
Nathan
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So, you seem to be doing it all right...I have just a couple of reminders or possible paths to improvement.



First, crimp: I would try crimp from 0.423" - 0.417". I suspect closer to 0.423" will be best.

Second, OAL: OAL for 40 S&W works best for me at 1.125". 1.14 seems a bit long, but I would expect this to be more of a feed related issue.

Last, are you using a flat point seater stem or round nose type. Round nose is more common, but since your main load is a FP, I thought I would ask.


Btw, I wouldn't bother with extra case prep, other powders or different primers. Bullets are a fundamental source of accuracy. Poor accuracy with any safe load is a reason to sell the bullets usually. Also, don't feel like you are dumping them as they would likely shoot lights out in my gun.
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Old October 7, 2013, 08:54 AM   #5
Katsumi Liquer
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Thanks for the responses.

JustSomeGuy: I have not explicitly checked the RS rounds for changes in OAL caused by recoil, but the chronographed velocities have been consistent for all the rounds in a single magazine, so I am assuming no OAL changes in the course of firing.

SL1: Rolling the loaded RS rounds on a flat surface, I can detect no visible run-out. I am using Lee dies, and the seating/crimping die features a round-nose seating stem.
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Old October 7, 2013, 12:33 PM   #6
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I would say judging by the numbers you offer that certainly helps to detail your level of hands-on experience, your best solution would be to capitulate, and attempt to find some way to rid yourself of these particular bullets.

Believe me, I've gone through similar numbers and I do bulk bullets buys in the same kind of way. I like to have 6-12,000 of a slug before I feel like I have the kind of supply that is comfortable, and the idea of losing some money (or time or effort) getting rid of a substandard one is not an option I would like.

But I'll bet that is your best option.

I would say that bulk bullets (in whatever size of a lot you'd put together) go for more dough on Gunbroker than I like to pay for them, so if you are a savvy shopper, you might do better selling them than you might initially imagine.

I'll tell ya something else...
If a large part of your lot still happens to be sealed in Berry's original 1000-rd boxes, I would even consider a friendly call to Berry's for some manner of a swap. I'm telling you, those are good people in that organization. I can't speak for them and we are in crazy business times, but I've been through tens of thousands of Berry's slugs and part of the reason is because I just like those guys.
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Old October 7, 2013, 02:10 PM   #7
Katsumi Liquer
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Nathan: I usually put a light taper crimp on the cartridge in order to avoid tearing through the thin copper plating, but it seems sufficient to hold the projectile in place through the loading/feeding/firing cycle.

The OAL of 1.140" for the FP load was a result of deriving a common recipe that would chamber in the barrel with the shortest leade (in this case, a CZ 75B), and the RS load was initially set at the same OAL. However, In trying to get the RS load to shoot accurately, I tried varying the OAL between 1.130" and 1.145", to no effect.

Perhaps I should go the other way and try a sample load with an OAL of 1.125"?
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Old October 7, 2013, 08:44 PM   #8
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I doubt the shorter OAL to 1.125 is going to change things, but you've gone this far, why not try it.
I second the suggestion to call Berrys.

BTW, nice shooting.
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Old October 7, 2013, 08:51 PM   #9
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I agree. Because of the different ogive, the 1.140" OACL might have the ogive crowding the throat of your barrel. 1.125" is worth a look with the RN/RS and if you're willing to experiment a bit I would recommend trying Ramshot True Blue or Silhouette. They're a little more unfiform pressure wise than Universal.
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Old October 8, 2013, 02:21 AM   #10
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@ Katsumi... Though looking for OAL differences is one of the things to examine, also looking for marks on the nose of the bullet indicating touching the lands or marks on the case indicating retention by the extractor are among other things to look for. However, since you are getting uniform velocities OAL variation is probably not occurring. At 1.14 or so, they are on the long side for some 40's though, so 57K's remark about the possibility of them being almost if not actually "on the lands" is a possibility and a shorter OAL might be more favorable even taking into account that you have tried 1.13-ish OALs also.

Frankly, the short 155grn bullet, having less contact with the rifling, has never enthused me as being the most accurate of the 40cal bullets anyway, but some guns shoot them remarkably well. I favor 180's or occasionally 165's for most uses, and though I have tried Universal in 40 with decent results, I like Silhouette much better.
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Old October 8, 2013, 02:44 PM   #11
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My bet is that your bullets are undersize. Measure a few and
compare.

Just a couple thousandths will make a huge difference
in accuracy.

If they are, and you bought them recently, the manufacturer
should replace them.

All the Best,
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Old October 14, 2013, 03:20 AM   #12
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Tuning a load

Just my perspective on this. I noticed that your targets are marked 25yrds O/H ..i'm presuming this means 25 yards Off-handed..When working up a load I always use a rest and I always try it at different times . I figure I'm not giving the load a fair shake if I'm off handing it and sometimes I'm just having a bad sight picture day...

Food for thought.
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Old October 14, 2013, 08:09 AM   #13
Katsumi Liquer
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Thanks to all who replied with ideas and suggestions. I have loaded up a small test batch of cartridges with the RS projectiles at an OAL of 1.124", using a slightly smaller charge of 5.3 gr. of Universal (to keep pressures safe with the reduced case volume). Hopefully I'll have time this weekend to try out the load and report back thereafter.
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Old October 14, 2013, 08:22 AM   #14
Katsumi Liquer
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45Long: You are correct. The two targets pictured were shot offhand in sequence during the same range session, under identical conditions with the same firearm. Benchresting the firearm while shooting the RS load unfortunately had no effect on accuracy, thereby adding to my frustration level with this projectile.

I shall reiterate that the RS load has been shot out of all of my handguns in the caliber, with similar dismal accuracy results.
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Old October 16, 2013, 12:33 PM   #15
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My primary handgun is also a 40S&W caliber. I'm very interested in the results of your research. Thanks very much for sharing, and the great replies. This noob is learning a lot.
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